Ministry Or Business, When does ministry stop being ministry? Options

[Shepherdswife]

I'm hearing something here that has me puzzled. Some are saying the pastors don't get paid enough, and yet, at the same time there is a glut of pastors. Usually it would seem that if a profession does not pay what it is worth then there would be a lack of those wishing to go into that profession. Supply and demand.

W-e-l-l-l-l, I am going to say something that might be controversial, but here goes.

I believe there is a shortage---not of applicants or degrees--but of good pastors. And a conference official who interviews and checks references for new hires told me the same thing. Lots of applicants with degrees, not enough good pastors.

Ministry, done properly, is tough. But if you make the right noises and preach a decent sermon, you can coast through it without doing much work, and still make the same money and benefits. I have seen pastors who are not qualified for anything else, and who could not make anything near what they are making if they had to go find another job. So they stay. And once a man is ordained, he is hard to get rid of, even if he is mostly marking time.

Those who could make more but who are dedicated and called stay in spite of the money. Those who are not industrious and committed so would probably not be able to make as much anywhere else stay in because of the money. Just my opinion...

shepherdswife

[YogusBearus]

W-e-l-l-l-l, I am going to say something that might be controversial, but here goes.

I believe there is a shortage---not of applicants or degrees--but of good pastors. And a conference official who interviews and checks references for new hires told me the same thing. Lots of applicants with degrees, not enough good pastors.

Ministry, done properly, is tough. But if you make the right noises and preach a decent sermon, you can coast through it without doing much work, and still make the same money and benefits. I have seen pastors who are not qualified for anything else, and who could not make anything near what they are making if they had to go find another job. So they stay. And once a man is ordained, he is hard to get rid of, even if he is mostly marking time.

Those who could make more but who are dedicated and called stay in spite of the money. Those who are not industrious and committed so would probably not be able to make as much anywhere else stay in because of the money. Just my opinion...

shepherdswife

Thank you so much for saying what I was feeling but don’t have the credentials to say. I would guess we’ve all seen the pastors/teachers that are putting in their time with minimal effort. I’ve also been privileged to observe and work with the other group that is on fire and are willing to do whatever it takes to fulfill their passion for ministry.

I realize it is probably not possible to test ministerial candidates for aptitude anymore than it is possible to qualify the veracity of their “call”. I imagine the conference officials in charge of pastoral placement are in a position to make some subjective decisions on pastoral competency but what if those officials are not able to recognize competence for whatever reason?

Tough problem…


-bear

[Shepherdswife]

Thank you so much for saying what I was feeling but don’t have the credentials to say. I would guess we’ve all seen the pastors/teachers that are putting in their time with minimal effort. I’ve also been privileged to observe and work with the other group that is on fire and are willing to do whatever it takes to fulfill their passion for ministry.

I realize it is probably not possible to test ministerial candidates for aptitude anymore than it is possible to qualify the veracity of their “call”. I imagine the conference officials in charge of pastoral placement are in a position to make some subjective decisions on pastoral competency but what if those officials are not able to recognize competence for whatever reason?

Tough problem…


-bear

Yes bear, I know that members can tell which is which. And maybe should be given more of a voice in the process...

But, we have been on both sides--being "ministered" to by one marking time, and being serious about ministry in a church that wanted to mark time where they would have voted us out of the ministry had they the clout. So it is a tough situation for the "brethren". No easy answers. Those who think it is simple have probably never been in a similar leadership position. Or never in a position where you are leading volunteers, as pastors are. Totally different animal than leadership in the business world, IMO.

Then there is the other barrel of worms of whether the "ministry" as we know it now is even Biblical--or whether we are still somewhat following that other church in putting a person over a group of people to "feed" and care for them. But that is a whole different topic...

In our denominations early years, if a young man felt called and went asking for employment, the conference told him to go raise up a new church in an un-entered area. Then come back. If he was able to do that, he was considered. His "call" was verified. Not sure that is the answer, or that it would be feasible now, but that would certainly weed out non-serious applicants!

shepherdswife

[simplysaved]

It is called "Anointing" and then watching to see the "fruit" bore....Alt least that's what the Bible calls it....

Thank you so much for saying what I was feeling but don’t have the credentials to say. I would guess we’ve all seen the pastors/teachers that are putting in their time with minimal effort. I’ve also been privileged to observe and work with the other group that is on fire and are willing to do whatever it takes to fulfill their passion for ministry.

I realize it is probably not possible to test ministerial candidates for aptitude anymore than it is possible to qualify the veracity of their “call”. I imagine the conference officials in charge of pastoral placement are in a position to make some subjective decisions on pastoral competency but what if those officials are not able to recognize competence for whatever reason? Tough problem…


-bear

This post has been edited by simplysaved: Nov 29 2007, 04:22 PM

[AzA]

Then there is the other barrel of worms of whether the "ministry" as we know it now is even Biblical--or whether we are still somewhat following that other church in putting a person over a group of people to "feed" and care for them. But that is a whole different topic...

And I can see the worms crawling from here!

[Shepherdswife]

And I can see the worms crawling from here!

Oops! I thought I got the lid back on tightly....

shepherdswife

[princessdi]

Sarah, go ahead and supply the texts that support your statement. Just to give it some credibility other than Sarah said the Bible said it.

It is called "Anointing" and then watching to see the "fruit" bore....Alt least that's what the Bible calls it....

[simplysaved]

1 Samuel 16

1 The LORD said to Samuel, "How long will you mourn for Saul, since I have rejected him as king over Israel? Fill your horn with oil and be on your way; I am sending you to Jesse of Bethlehem. I have chosen one of his sons to be king."
2 But Samuel said, "How can I go? Saul will hear about it and kill me."
The LORD said, "Take a heifer with you and say, 'I have come to sacrifice to the LORD.' 3 Invite Jesse to the sacrifice, and I will show you what to do. You are to anoint for me the one I indicate."

4 Samuel did what the LORD said. When he arrived at Bethlehem, the elders of the town trembled when they met him. They asked, "Do you come in peace?"

5 Samuel replied, "Yes, in peace; I have come to sacrifice to the LORD. Consecrate yourselves and come to the sacrifice with me." Then he consecrated Jesse and his sons and invited them to the sacrifice.

6 When they arrived, Samuel saw Eliab and thought, "Surely the LORD's anointed stands here before the LORD."

7 But the LORD said to Samuel, "Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things man looks at. Man looks at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart."

8 Then Jesse called Abinadab and had him pass in front of Samuel. But Samuel said, "The LORD has not chosen this one either." 9 Jesse then had Shammah pass by, but Samuel said, "Nor has the LORD chosen this one." 10 Jesse had seven of his sons pass before Samuel, but Samuel said to him, "The LORD has not chosen these." 11 So he asked Jesse, "Are these all the sons you have?"
"There is still the youngest," Jesse answered, "but he is tending the sheep."
Samuel said, "Send for him; we will not sit down [a] until he arrives."

12 So he sent and had him brought in. He was ruddy, with a fine appearance and handsome features.
Then the LORD said, "Rise and anoint him; he is the one."

13 So Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the presence of his brothers, and from that day on the Spirit of the LORD came upon David in power. Samuel then went to Ramah.Matthew 7

7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.


15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


Based on scripture posted above, I think many times we get caught up in just the credentials and not what happens AFTER they have received the Call from God...whether or not the fruit born is healthy or stagnate.

Thank you so much for saying what I was feeling but don’t have the credentials to say. I would guess we’ve all seen the pastors/teachers that are putting in their time with minimal effort. I’ve also been privileged to observe and work with the other group that is on fire and are willing to do whatever it takes to fulfill their passion for ministry.

I realize it is probably not possible to test ministerial candidates for aptitude anymore than it is possible to qualify the veracity of their “call”. I imagine the conference officials in charge of pastoral placement are in a position to make some subjective decisions on pastoral competency but what if those officials are not able to recognize competence for whatever reason?

Tough problem…


-bear

[princessdi]

Now you know, I have learned something today! I didn't know int he early days of our church, we started churches much as other denoms still do today. maybe that is why we tend to look down on them, we feel we have "evolved and they haven't.........

Now, here is NCC, the congregation is in the "pastor selection" process. we have a committe, ususaly the church board, who interview prospective pastors. The pastor and the church have the last word. We can extend the invitation, but he can refuse. Also, he might have wanted an invitation, but we can move on tot he next prospect.

In each process whether selected by the conference of by the church, the leading of the Holy Spirit is key. We had one who tickled the majority of ears on our board, and we ended up sending him back with much more difficulty than we acquired him, within a month's time. I tolfd them not to bote him in, but apparently that tickling the ears thing is quite serious.......we paid for it dearly. They were only four of us who were not decived that night.

Yes bear, I know that members can tell which is which. And maybe should be given more of a voice in the process...

But, we have been on both sides--being "ministered" to by one marking time, and being serious about ministry in a church that wanted to mark time where they would have voted us out of the ministry had they the clout. So it is a tough situation for the "brethren". No easy answers. Those who think it is simple have probably never been in a similar leadership position. Or never in a position where you are leading volunteers, as pastors are. Totally different animal than leadership in the business world, IMO.

Then there is the other barrel of worms of whether the "ministry" as we know it now is even Biblical--or whether we are still somewhat following that other church in putting a person over a group of people to "feed" and care for them. But that is a whole different topic...

In our denominations early years, if a young man felt called and went asking for employment, the conference told him to go raise up a new church in an un-entered area. Then come back. If he was able to do that, he was considered. His "call" was verified. Not sure that is the answer, or that it would be feasible now, but that would certainly weed out non-serious applicants!

shepherdswife

[AzA]

When you say "tickled ears," are you talking about a ceiling-busting sermon when the guy visited? Or something deeper than that?

[Snoopy]

Does anyone happen to know what the average cost of construction per square foot is in southern Illinois?

[Pickle]

In our denominations early years, if a young man felt called and went asking for employment, the conference told him to go raise up a new church in an un-entered area. Then come back. If he was able to do that, he was considered. His "call" was verified. Not sure that is the answer, or that it would be feasible now, but that would certainly weed out non-serious applicants!

Why not? HMS Richards in Ministry magazine praised the idea. He said we lose a lot of good men by putting them over churches right off. Put them out in the field two by two so they can pray with each other and cry on each other's shoulders.

Of course, we must move wisely. But if God says "Move," we ought to. Israel conquered Jericho in 7 days when they did what God said, even though it sounded ludicrous to march silently and then shout. How long would it have taken if they had done things their own way?

We have been called to raise up church buildings in every city and village on the planet as a testimony to the true Sabbath. Once we're done with that, maybe we can try something different.

Think people are going to drive 50 miles on tomorrow's gas prices just because they have a little interest in hearing the message?

[Richard Sherwin]

Of course the problem with this today is that when a young person gets out of school he/she is a hundred and fifty grand in debt with student loans and needs employment ASAP so they don't default on those loans. So if after a person goes through 4 years of college plus the seminary and they can't get hired by a conference we say thanks for the money now you are in deep do do....so long sucker.

In our denominations early years, if a young man felt called and went asking for employment, the conference told him to go raise up a new church in an un-entered area. Then come back. If he was able to do that, he was considered. His "call" was verified. Not sure that is the answer, or that it would be feasible now, but that would certainly weed out non-serious applicants!

shepherdswife

[Pickle]

Of course the problem with this today is that when a young person gets out of school he/she is a hundred and fifty grand in debt with student loans and needs employment ASAP so they don't default on those loans.

If we start thinking about doing things the way we used to, and/or the way we were told to, perhaps fewer students would have so much debt when they get out.

Avondale College had the benefit of Ellen White's presence when it started, so maybe it got set up at the beginning to operate closer to the blueprint than it would have otherwise. Read this, and notice the bolded larger text aways down:

The Avondale School

...

In starting the school in Cooranbong, she made the statement that the school to be started in Australasia was not to pattern after any other school, either in that country or in the United States. It was to be different from any other school.

Something like nearly forty years ago, about the time of the beginning of the old Battle Creek College, Sister White gave us light on the subject of industrial schools; but for some reason or other we have been very slow to appreciate that light. Hence, in opening the school in Australasia, she desired that it should not be patterned after any other school in the world; and so, in that place, as perhaps in no other of our schools, the Lord had an opportunity to develop a plan that is more in accordance with the light that has been given.

As already stated, I became connected with the school eight years ago; and I have found that the brethren, in counsel with Sister White, had made such broad and liberal plans for the school, that throughout my eight years' connection with it I have never yet needed to change a single plan they had laid down. God guided in the establishment of the work there, and all we have endeavored to do during these eight years, has simply been to develop more fully the plans already made. I believe the working out of this has proved that God's instruction was true.

It would necessarily follow that in starting a school of that kind, in a field where the constituency was small, and where the people had been passing through serious difficulty financially, there would be a large indebtedness at the beginning; and at the same time there was an indebtedness of about $23,000 on the school. It was about this time that the plan of selling the book, "Christ's Object Lessons," was launched, and our brethren in that country took hold of this work with an earnest purpose to carry out the instruction regarding it. As a result of their efforts, up to the present time, something over $20,000 has been received from the sale of "Christ's Object Lessons" for the school. The indebtedness being $23,000 when we started, practically all the original indebtedness has been liquidated by the sale of "Christ's Object Lessons." This proves that what God said might be accomplished can be accomplished, as regards the liquidation of our school debts through the sale of "Object Lessons."

At the beginning of the "Object Lessons" campaign, the present worth of the Avondale School was about $23,000. The present worth of the school to-day is about $67,000. Adding $20,000, the amount that has been received, to the $23,000 present worth, makes $43,000. Subtract this from $67,000, the present worth, and you will notice that the school has made during the past eight years about $24,000. This proves that industrial schools can be made to pay.

When we began our work at this school, eight years ago, the students were earning about $2,000 a year in the industrial work; that is, they were working sufficient to receive a credit of two thousand dollars a year. That work has steadily grown from that day to this, until, when our last statement was drawn, Sept. 30, 1908, it was shown that the students, during the preceding year, had earned $20,000 on their education.

R. A. Underwood: They were credited that amount?

C. W. Irwin: Yes: something over $20,000.

A Delegate: What is the attendance?

C. W. Irwin: The total enrollment generally goes up to about two hundred students. That includes, however, the church-school, which generally numbers about 35. The last four years we have had all the homes full; that means about 125 students.

During the past year we have erected a large, three-story building for the accommodation of our ladies, with a good parlor; we have made an addition to our dining-room; and we have put up a good-sized printing office, 40 x 80 feet. These improvements, including an electric-light plant, have all been made from the earnings of the school. Since the inauguration of the "Christ's Object Lessons" work, we have never called for a penny of donations from the field. We believe that when the Lord says that an industrial school can be conducted successfully, financially as well as otherwise, the only thing for us to do is to take hold and prove that what he has said is true.

...

In reference to the industries in our school: A farm of 1,500 acres was purchased at first, and later other land was secured. Some of this land has been sold, but at the present we have about 1,100 acres. About 100 acres of this land is under cultivation, and the rest is what is known in Australia as "bush land," or forest. Farming is one of our principal industries. In fact, we raise all the fruit, vegetables, etc., used on our school table. Every month in the year we get something from the farm for use on our table. We have found out one thing about our location; and that is that while Australia is a drought-stricken country, this particular place seems to have quite a uniform rainfall. There is better land in some other parts of Australia, some that will produce as high as fifty bushels of wheat to the acre; but we have found that it is better to be where there is rain; for without that, the better land is of little value.

There was started in connection with this school a small printing plant, and also a food factory. However, these were not very closely associated with the school. In fact, for the first two or three years, we had very little to do with the food factory, except to cart the foods to the station and provide their fuel. The printing plant was also run, to some extent, as a separate concern. However, as time went on, it was made clear to the brethren that these ought to be under one management. When this was finally done, it made a very large affair; but what God said about this has proved true, as well as other things. I never discovered until about a year ago that Sister White had said that these industries should be run as a department of the school. Some of the brethren will remember that the food factory was given the name of "white elephant." It not only was a white elephant, but it got bigger and bigger until it became a regular Jumbo; and it was such a difficulty that it was becoming a financial menace to the union conference. As a last resort, it was turned over to us, and they told us to do what we could with it. When we took it over, if I remember correctly, it was about $9,000 worse off than nothing; that is, if everything connected with it had been sold at its inventory valuation, it would still have been $9,000 in debt. But when we obey God, these difficulties right themselves, and hence we endeavored to take hold of that work, and see what we could do with it. It was not all smooth sailing; but I am glad to say that an indebtedness of about $27,000 has been reduced to $17,000. We hope this good record will continue until this indebtedness is entirely liquidated.

I may say here that when stating the present worth of the school as $67,000, I did not include either the food factory or the printing plant. If these two were added, it would considerably increase the present worth of the Avondale School. The work in our printing plant and in our food factory has grown until at the present time we have an income of from two to three thousand dollars a month from these departments. This amount in cash each month helps us out considerably. But if we had not acted upon the instruction God gave us on this matter, we would not have had this income, and would not have been able to help so many students.

If it were not for these industries, we would have to say to 100 out of the 125 students, "You must go home, for we can not carry you." As it is, we are carrying about 100 out of 125 who attend our school.

I was reading in the Testimonies only yesterday that there ought to be 20 young people in the work to-day where we have only one. If we had, years ago, followed this plan of establishing industrial schools, doubtless we would be in that position now, and would be very much nearer the kingdom than we are now. Thousands of young men and women can not attend our schools, and pay their way, because they do not have the money. It seems to me that we should enlarge our industrial school plans until all these can receive a training to become workers in the cause of God. In many instances those who have to work their way through school prove to be the very best workers. The struggle they make to obtain an education seems especially to fit them to cope with the difficulties they meet when they get into the work.

Our three principal industrial departments at the present time are the farm, the printing office, and the food factory. In all our industrial work we have endeavored to introduce and to continue only those departments which relate to the message. In our health food work we believe we are making something that pertains to that which has been termed the "right arm of the message;" in our printing office we do no commercial work, printing only truth-laden literature. Thus our students are working directly on the message while gaining a valuable experience in manual labor, and earning part or all of their expenses in the school. We do not expect to introduce any department which will not work directly for the message itself. Of course we have a number of small departments, such as the blacksmith shop, carpenter shop, paint shop, etc., which contribute to keeping the buildings and machinery in repair.

Question: Do you have a dairy and an apiary?

Prof. Irwin: Yes, we have about ninety colonies of bees. One year they made about ten tons of honey. We have fifteen cows.

Question: Do you realize anything from your timber?

Prof. Irwin: We do, by using it for fuel, fences, etc.

Question: Do you use the scholarship plan in your territory?

Prof. Irwin: Yes, they are beginning to use that plan now, and I think our people will make a success of it. The Australian young people seem to have a gift for canvassing.

A. G. Daniells: They have a gift for good, hard work.

Prof. Irwin: Perhaps that is it.

[Pickle]

Found the other one I wanted. This one is pretty neat:

THE AUSTRALASIAN MISSIONARY COLLEGE

The college is a busy little city, with its green grocer, general store, bakery, and draper shop; its sawmill, blacksmith shop, plumber shop, carpentry shop, press, factory, electric-light plant, and telephone exchange; together with its fleet of boats for the transportation of passengers and freight; the whole operated by teachers and students.

In the year 1894, an estate was purchased near Cooranbong, New South Wales, Australia, on which to erect a Christian school. This estate was subsequently called the Avondale estate, and the school was denominated the Avondale School for Christian Workers. To meet the condition brought about by the Compulsory Military Training Act, the name was changed, in June, 1911, to that of Australasian Missionary College. However, the name to the people will ever remain the Avondale School. In harmony with the instruction of the spirit of prophecy, the school was located in the country, where the beauties of nature are more elevating than the works of man; where the tilling of the soil is better for muscle, brain, and heart, than the amusements, sports, and holidays; where God's pure air is sweeter than in the city streets; and where true manhood and womanhood, and the love of Christ, may develop in the hearts of our youth under the best possible conditions.

The nearest city is twenty-five miles away, and Sydney, the capital of New South Wales, is seventy-five miles distant.

At present the estate consists of about eleven hundred acres, of which nearly two hundred acres are under cultivation. Oranges, mandarins, and lemons are the citrus fruits grown on the tilled land, while summer fruits, such as apples, pears, plums, peaches, persimmons, and blackberries are grown in abundance. Agricultural products necessary for the supply of the school are also grown.

The farm affords work for a large number of students, some of whom pay their entire way in labor.

The domestic science department opens the way for the young ladies to be trained in the art of housekeeping. The college press has been running more than ten years, and is a growing enterprise. As a missionary and educational factor, the printing department is proving to be of great importance. It is self-supporting, and employs about twenty-five students. Several others are members of the industrial class. Literature has been produced by the press up to the present time in Fijian, Tongan, Tahitian, Rarotongan, Maori, Singapore-Malay, Java-Malay, Niue, Samoan, and English. Six monthly publications and one weekly journal are issued. The Sabbath-school Quarterlies, and the various readings used throughout the churches, are also produced by the press, and all lines of paper boxes, bags, and advertising matter for the health foods are successfully produced. A stereotyping plant is in operation, and a new Payne's perfecting press was installed last year.

The carpentry and blacksmithing departments are well equipped and prove a great blessing to the school.

The school having outgrown its capacity to accommodate young men, the carpentry department last year built an addition to the young men's home. The dormitory now offers room for seventy-five boys. During last year this department also built a church-school building for the use of the normal department.

The industrial feature of the college is a most interesting as well as a most valuable one. Last year fifty-five per cent of the students paid their entire expenses in labor, thirty-five per cent paid one half their school fees, while only ten per cent were full-paying students.

The literary work of the school has not been neglected, and the college offers to its constituency a Biblical, advanced normal, missionary, music, and commercial and shorthand course.

The spiritual interests of the school have been well guarded, and when the school closed last year it was found that only one student had failed to acknowledge Christ as his Saviour. The graduating class of 1912 was composed of four students from the ministerial course, six from the missionary course, and one from the music course.

The value of the Australasian Missionary College to the great union conference which has fostered it from the beginning, and the value to the cause of God, only the judgment will reveal. You have here at this General Conference delegates from the island fields as well as the continental mission fields, who have been trained within its walls. In the home land, and in the mission field, are to be found its faithful representatives working out the principles taught them by their alma mater.

B. F. MACHLAN.

What would it be like today if 90% of the students attending our colleges were able to pay either 50% or 100% of their school fees by working?

"Owe no man anything but to love one another."

This post has been edited by Pickle: Nov 30 2007, 08:41 PM