Ministry Or Business, When does ministry stop being ministry? Options

[princessdi]

I really think they should start with a salary befitting the degree and amount of avaiablility required. However, I believe raises, etc should be given depending on the results of Performance evaluations, just like any other job. I am not sure I would go with the church size thing, even though I can see where it might be more work. I am also thinking, though, that they are allowed more assistant pastors, elders to assist the pastors of larger churches. Pastors of smaller churches often do a lot more work themselves with no assistant pastor. Then there is the whole competition thing, but I believe that exists anyway, if for nothing else, but the prestige..........

[GrammieTana]

[quote name='Preacher's Kid' date='Nov 28 2007, 04:18 PM' post='226121']
I just want to put a question out there for everybody. If tomorrow the GC announced that the finances are doing so well they would like to give the Pastors a raise but they are leaving it up to the Adventist members to vote on if they think they should do so how would you vote. Let's say they wanted to take their pay up 12,000 a year. What would your vote be and why?
/quote]


$ 12,000/yr ?!!! YIKES!!! Where ARE the emoticons?!?!?! How did you arrive at that paltry figure?!?
How could you even think of asking a pastor to subsist on that little amount of money??? I am retired on Social Security and I get more than that and I find it hard to meet my daily expenses after my monthly bills are paid for just the essentials. You will probably say that I am a poor money manager, but I'll tell you, I'd like to see any of you manage on that little amount with children in church school needing food AND clothing (a young pastor that is - not me). I haven't had any new clothes for several years and my shoes are falling apart!! I just might be able to squeak out a new pair after the New Year but I won't be able to give any Christmas presents or gifts of any kind no matter how much I try to stretch what is left after food, medicine and gasoline to go for medical treatments. Of course it will help when God heals me of the several health issues I have and I believe that He is doing just that, but until it is complete . . . Thank God for Medicare and a good supplemental insurance policy!

Let's try a more realistic figure like $20,000 and see where that ends up? And that's a very conservative amount if you ask me. And that's for here in Berrien Springs, Michigan.

Grammie Tana

[YogusBearus]

There is a movement, in North America, to pay pastors based upon the size of the membership of the congregation that they pastor!

This raises several issues in my mind.

Yes, I've observed that with a number of the larger churches. It usually involves a "signing bonus" and other under the table arrangements made directly with the church in question. One that I recall involved the Senior Pastor's wife being put on salary with the understanding that there were not duties required of her.

There seems to be keen competition between the few larger churches to obtain the pastor with the highest name recognition. Go figure...

-bear

[YogusBearus]

I haved just returned from vacatlion, vilsiting my two oldest sons in another State. I am responding to this post withoug reading all that I have missed.

The idea of denomiantional job security has long since departed


1) In the Conference where I live, it is Conference policy that an Associate pastor serves only at the will of the Sr. pastor. If, for any reason, no exceptions, the Sr. pastor wishes to remove an Associate pastor, it happens.

NOTE: When this happens, the reality is that the Associate pastor will often not be offered another pastoral position.


2) Due to financial constraints onr Conferences often have to reduce their pastoral staff. This has happend more than once in the past 14 years that I liveed in the Conference where I live.

NOTE: These pastors often are not able to obtain another pastoral position.

3) The supply of people qualified to be pastors exceeds (In North America) the pastoral positions available due to finances. When I left the U. S. Army I felt it would be good for me to return to a pastoral position. I contacted the Conference where I haed been employed prior to my entry into the Army Chaplaincy. I was told that they had a position expected to come open in the near future. As it was not yet open it had not yet been advertised, nor had any other attempts beeen made to fill it. Yet, they already had requests from over 100 pastors to be consdiered for that up coming position.

On another point: We sometimes ask pastors to take churches in areas where we can not pay them enough to live near that congregation. As a result, pastors sometimes live 100 miles from the chruches that they pastor. This does not lead to good ministry.

4) I am personally aware of situations where, due to finances, congregations are pastored by lay members, with no pastoral training. It saves money when money is tight.

Excellent points Gregory! Your statement "The supply of people qualified to be pastors exceeds (In North America) the pastoral positions available due to finances." caught my attention. Is it possible we're generating excessive ministerial graduates that may not be that well qualified for the ministry?

I don't want to be mean spirited but when I spend time with some of the earnest young men taking ministerial training in our colleges, I've wondered what the criteria is to be accepted into the program. I don't have the answer to this but wonder if we're doing these young people any favors by not being more proactive in guiding them.

-bear

[Richard Sherwin]

I'm hearing something here that has me puzzled. Some are saying the pastors don't get paid enough, and yet, at the same time there is a glut of pastors. Usually it would seem that if a profession does not pay what it is worth then there would be a lack of those wishing to go into that profession. Supply and demand.

How about we made the pastors pay equal to the average of the congregation based on the amount of tithe? Thus the expensive places to live would be paying the pastor more and those that pastor in rural and/or blue collar areas would get less. By paying them the average income of the congregation they would be able to live where they pastor, live in homes that were comparable to their constituents and drive that same class of car. I realize there are many flaws in this scenario but thought I'd throw it out.

[Snoopy]

$ 12,000/yr ?!!! YIKES!!! Where ARE the emoticons?!?!?! How did you arrive at that paltry figure?!?
How could you even think of asking a pastor to subsist on that little amount of money??? I am retired on Social Security and I get more than that and I find it hard to meet my daily expenses after my monthly bills are paid for just the essentials. You will probably say that I am a poor money manager, but I'll tell you, I'd like to see any of you manage on that little amount with children in church school needing food AND clothing (a young pastor that is - not me). I haven't had any new clothes for several years and my shoes are falling apart!! I just might be able to squeak out a new pair after the New Year but I won't be able to give any Christmas presents or gifts of any kind no matter how much I try to stretch what is left after food, medicine and gasoline to go for medical treatments. Of course it will help when God heals me of the several health issues I have and I believe that He is doing just that, but until it is complete . . . Thank God for Medicare and a good supplemental insurance policy!

Let's try a more realistic figure like $20,000 and see where that ends up? And that's a very conservative amount if you ask me. And that's for here in Berrien Springs, Michigan.

Grammie Tana

I think that Preachers Kid was suggesting an ADDITIONAL $12K per year, not that they be paid $12K per year. Correct me if I am wrong, PK...

[PeacefulBe]

bear, guidance for those aspiring students with a passion but not necessarily a gift for pastoring would be an awfully great idea.

If there are those newly trained pastors who DO have a gift in this area, have a good grasp on theological things and they AREN'T being put to good use, it begs the question where are our priorities?

[princessdi]

That would not work either, Richard. I am also thinking of the Bay Area "urban" areas where housing prices are not so "urban". Many of the membership is of middle or low income many not being able to buy housing in that area. This still may set up "competition " for churches with Higher income brackets.

This is not rocket science, just pay them a decent competitive salary. Something ALL of us with that much education required would accept and we won't have to have all these mental gymnastics trying to do anything but pay them decently in this crazy economy.

I'm hearing something here that has me puzzled. Some are saying the pastors don't get paid enough, and yet, at the same time there is a glut of pastors. Usually it would seem that if a profession does not pay what it is worth then there would be a lack of those wishing to go into that profession. Supply and demand.

How about we made the pastors pay equal to the average of the congregation based on the amount of tithe? Thus the expensive places to live would be paying the pastor more and those that pastor in rural and/or blue collar areas would get less. By paying them the average income of the congregation they would be able to live where they pastor, live in homes that were comparable to their constituents and drive that same class of car. I realize there are many flaws in this scenario but thought I'd throw it out.

[Richard Sherwin]

So what would you call a decent competitive salary?

That would not work either, Richard. I am also thinking of the Bay Area "urban" areas where housing prices are not so "urban". Many of the membership is of middle or low income many not being able to buy housing in that area. This still may set up "competition " for churches with Higher income brackets.

This is not rocket science, just pay them a decent competitive salary. Something ALL of us with that much education required would accept and we won't have to have all these mental gymnastics trying to do anything but pay them decently in this crazy economy.

[Observer]

I'm hearing something here that has me puzzled. Some are saying the pastors don't get paid enough, and yet, at the same time there is a glut of pastors. Usually it would seem that if a profession does not pay what it is worth then there would be a lack of those wishing to go into that profession.

Perhaps spme are committed, and believe that God will use them.

NOTE 1: I went to the Seminary at Andrews without a sponsorship. I put myself through by cleaniging bathrooms--thank you custodial for allowing me to do so. Near the end of my education there I sent letters to the majority of Conferences asking fkor employment. One responded with interest. They hired me followin the completation of my studies for the MDiv. They gave me $1,.000.00 to help on my educational expenses.

Note 2: I do not fit the mold of the typical SDA minister. If I had been advised on my chances to work successfully, I probably would have been told that I would never make it. Yet, I have worked as a SDA minister for about 40 years. My love of milnistry has been in pastoring a congregation. Yet that is not the direction that God has led. I have taken a different path in ministry. Even though my love has been in congregational ministry, I am satilsfied that God has led me in the best direction, and that God is leading me today, as I believe that I have contributed, and want nothing more than to follow in the direction God would lead.

My point: I have a reluctance to rule people out of ministry simply because they seemingly do not seem to fit the patten. I am aware of administratiors who use personalty tests and other such to evaulate people prior to employment in ministry. With my graduate background in psychological tests I am aware of their benefits, and their problems if I might call them that. They are not perfect. The fact that I do not have the MBTI personality of the typical clergyperson may not mean that I cannot be a success.

By the way for those who are into tests and measurements, I am an ISTJ. That is not a typical clergyperson.

[Pickle]

A little off the subject, but I was thinking about degrees, since degrees were mentioned. From the sound of it, a DMin might be worth a bit, but what really is a MDiv worth? Have you ever personally met someone who had mastered divinity, or was a master of divinity?

Or did "master" used to mean something that it doesn't mean in everyday English today?

I can understand a masters in theology, but a masters in divinity just sounds odd.

[Pickle]

My point: I have a reluctance to rule people out of ministry simply because they seemingly do not seem to fit the patten.

Yeah. Like when Mark Finley was told before he graduated that he should find another line of work, since he couldn't preach.

Ralph Martin gave a sermon long remembered by those who heard it, that God never did anything significant that He didn't use beginners to do it. Noah had never built an ark before. Moses had never led 2 million people through the wilderness before.

Not many great men are called. God has chosen simple and foolish things to confound the wise.

And I say that while believing in excellence as well.

[Preacher's Kid]

$ 12,000/yr ?!!! YIKES!!! Where ARE the emoticons?!?!?! How did you arrive at that paltry figure?!?
How could you even think of asking a pastor to subsist on that little amount of money??? I am retired on Social Security and I get more than that and I find it hard to meet my daily expenses after my monthly bills are paid for just the essentials. You will probably say that I am a poor money manager, but I'll tell you, I'd like to see any of you manage on that little amount with children in church school needing food AND clothing (a young pastor that is - not me). I haven't had any new clothes for several years and my shoes are falling apart!! I just might be able to squeak out a new pair after the New Year but I won't be able to give any Christmas presents or gifts of any kind no matter how much I try to stretch what is left after food, medicine and gasoline to go for medical treatments. Of course it will help when God heals me of the several health issues I have and I believe that He is doing just that, but until it is complete . . . Thank God for Medicare and a good supplemental insurance policy!

Let's try a more realistic figure like $20,000 and see where that ends up? And that's a very conservative amount if you ask me. And that's for here in Berrien Springs, Michigan.

Grammie Tana

LOL I was talking about a raise of an additional 12,000 per year.

I think that Preachers Kid was suggesting an ADDITIONAL $12K per year, not that they be paid $12K per year. Correct me if I am wrong, PK...

You are correct Snoopy! Thanks!

[Preacher's Kid]

I'm hearing something here that has me puzzled. Some are saying the pastors don't get paid enough, and yet, at the same time there is a glut of pastors. Usually it would seem that if a profession does not pay what it is worth then there would be a lack of those wishing to go into that profession. Supply and demand.

It's not a normal profession though, if you are called by God, then even if you know it isn't going to pay well, you are going to do it anyway.

[Preacher's Kid]

bear, guidance for those aspiring students with a passion but not necessarily a gift for pastoring would be an awfully great idea.

If there are those newly trained pastors who DO have a gift in this area, have a good grasp on theological things and they AREN'T being put to good use, it begs the question where are our priorities?

I think we would walk a fine line with doing that, it's not us who can really determine if someone has the gift of pastoring. Seeing as how that's something that your called to do by God.