The Latest In The 3-ring Circus, Discount Attorneys? Options

[Panama_Pete]

And while you're at it, call up Senator Charles Grassley's office, and tell him you would appreciate it if he adds 3ABN and Danny Shelton to the list of ministries and televangelists he's investigating. You could even get a petition going and see how many signatures you can collect, and then send it to his office. Mention the 1998 house deal, and how the legal documents are all posted on Save3ABN.com, and it's sure to get any legal authority's attention.

Now why would I suggest such a thing? 3ABN and Danny's frivolous lawsuit is an assault on our First Amendment guarantees of freedom of speech, freedom of press, and freedom of religion, and it was also an attempt to take us back to the Dark Ages when the trials of the Inquisition were held in secret. (If Jan Marcussen wasn't so closely tied to Danny, he just might fire off a newsletter suggesting that Danny is a Jesuit, or in cahoots with the Vatican.)

The First Amendment also guarantees our right to petition the government for redress, which includes our right to ask others to petition as well. I just exercised that right by bringing this whole matter to your attention and suggesting that you contact Senator Grassley. If I were to get sued for posting this, I would potentially be able to invoke federal and state anti-SLAPP statutes, statutes which make it tough on the big bullies who sue in order to hinder us from exercising our Constitutional right to petition the government.

Enough is enough.

I'm making this large for some people who need it:

People who contact Senator Grassley should also contact the Trinity Foundation. Senator Charles Grassley is working with the foundation

The Trinity Foundation.

P. O. Box 33,

Dallas, TX 75221

Office (214) 827-2625

Victim's Helpline 1(800) 229-VICTIM

e-mail us at pete@trinityfi.org

See the link below.

QUESTIONS & ANSWERS:
THE TELEVANGELIST INVESTIGATIONS

http://www.trinityfi.org/trinity/question.html




This post has been edited by Panama_Pete: Nov 9 2007, 11:44 AM

[Pickle]

And Ian, while you are trying to figure out whether Gailon lied or not, maybe you could also comment on what difference that would make regarding the question of whether Duffy, Pucci, and Hayes have all three violated or tried to violate one or the other of two different orders by two different federal judges. Does someone lying mean that lawyers can violate the orders of federal judges?

How far you want to take that? Does someone lying suddenly make Okay child molestation, cover up, private inurement, divorce without biblical grounds, trashing one's ex or ex's daughter on global TV?

How far are you folks going to go in your apparent abandonment or disregard of basic ethical, moral, and Christian values?

[fallible humanbe...]

I will be watching for your edit to include files and links about "Pickles" comments, the subject of this thread.

Please revisit post to access link that was not active yesterday.

[Pickle]

Jerrie Hayes to Gailon Joy, 11/9/2007. Trying to copy the hard drive is now on hold due to difficulty scheduling traveling. Will contact Gailon later, she says.

[fallible humanbe...]

QUESTIONS & ANSWERS:
THE TELEVANGELIST INVESTIGATIONS

http://www.trinityfi.org/trinity/question.html
[/size]

Hhhmmm . . . let's take a look at a few of the statements here:

The TV evangelists have barged into our living rooms with their broadcasts and turned the spotlight on themselves. They have demanded attention, so we're giving it to them.

"Barged into our living rooms"? I don't know about you, but I do have a remote control for my television and as far as I know it isn't operated remotely by anyone, be they a televangelist or a Big Three network. The only way any programming enters my home is when I turn on the television and select the channel. This is phase is straight from the American lexicon of victimology.

Because the TV evangelists are what you get when you take the American dream and change its focus from community to self. The early settlers had a real community-- they were forced to by circumstances, from persecution in the places they left and for survival once they arrived.

America started out as a group of people who were willing to die for each other. They made covenants and compacts that spelled that out. Now we don't even know our neighbors or co-workers. To a nation of strangers, the televangelists promise easy fellowship, and hundreds of thousands are responding.

Purely a distortion of the reality of early America. While the early European settlers of the eastern seaboard of America did leave England (first across the Channel to mainland Europe) to escape persecution, when they arrived on North American soil their intent and subsequent action was to establish communities that were equally as oppressive as the ones they left . . . only this time they were the oppressors and not the oppressed.

The idea that early settlers were willing to die for each other was only true if you shared the same doctrinal and world views of those in your community. Upon disagreement with the local collective you were either asked to leave or forcibly expelled from your town or village.

You've been accused of lying when you go undercover to get the facts about the televangelists. Isn't that unethical?

Their justification process for committing sin (spelled out in their response to this question) is just as ridiculous as the unscrupulous behavior they claim to be exposing. If you lie you lie . . . there are no two ways about it. If you are dishonest in your dealings with your fellow man (regardless of their moral, ethical, or spiritual condition) you are no different then those you claim to be "exposing."

Also interesting is the final comment on the Wikipedia entry about The Trinity Foundation . . .

A former member, Wendy J. Duncan, has written a book, I Can't Hear God Anymore: Life in a Dallas Cult claiming that Trinity Foundation is a cult.

Wendy Duncan responded to a blog asking questions about Ole Anthony and the TF . . . Link

# Wendy J. Duncan Says: June 5th, 2007 at 10:57 pm

Well, I just happened to write a book about Mr. Anthony and his Trinity Foundation. In fact, the Dallas Observer article, The Cult of Ole, was inspired by my book, I Can’t Hear God Anymore: Life in a Dallas Cult.

My husband was a member of this Bible-based cult for over twenty years. I was there for seven.

If you want more info, check out my website: http://www.dallascult.com

An additional response at the same blog is provided by "jr"

jr Says: June 6th, 2007 at 7:51 am

I was with Ole’s group for over six years. Doug, Wendy’s husband was Ole’s room mate for many years. The Dallas Observer article and the Duncan’s book are right on target. That is why not a peep has been heard from Ole. The books main thrust is to warn others about the dangers of abusive groups.

And finally is this testimony from an individual rather high up on the food chain at TF:

# Brian J. Birmingham Says:
June 7th, 2007 at 10:21 pm

Hi there. My name is Brian J. Birmingham and I was a member of the Trinity Foundation for about five months, beiginning in March of ‘06 and ending in early August of that year. I was the assistant to the Foundation’s lead investigator, a man named Pete Evans. Doug and Wendy characterize (correctly, in my opinion) Trinity Foundation as a spiritually abusive “ministry” (CULT)and Ole Anthony as a pathologically dishonest, deeply narcissistic, and cynically abusive man. I heard about the book and the Dallas Observer article, posted at:

http://www.dallasobserver.com/Issues/2006-...ws/feature.html

also more at

http://www.dallasobserver.com/Issues/2006-...s/feature2.html

...while still involved with the Foundation. And after careful honest and objective analysis on my part believe that I have seen behind the curtain of lies he’s taken care to weave and have beheld the bitter, cynical, angry, abusive little man whose name is Ole Anthony. Please, I exhort you: this organization, while arguably having had done a service to the church in exposing religious crooks who eat the sheep that they should be feeding, is certainly nothing to hold up as an upstanding Christian ministry, and Ole Anthony certainly is nobody you’d want to encourage anybody to associate with. Indeed, he is the epitome of a false teacher (and I’m just talking about Ole’s behavior as an abuser for starters; I haven’t even described to you the blasphemous, heretical doctrine he teaches, presenting himself every step of the way as somebody with some kin of “anointed”, special insight insofar as his twisted interpretation of the Scriptures.) He has managed, because of his charismatic, manipulative genius and gift for a snappy quote, to stay under the radar of serious scrutiny for years, unlike, say, somebody like Hinn. Ole, however, is twice the hypocrite Hinn ever was, and that’s saying something.
This man has left a wide path of psychic debris from his many abuses strewn about over a more than thirty-year period and it’s time he stopped getting a pass. I only was closely associated with him for five or so months and left with the nasty taste of Ole’s fruit in my mouth. Please, I beg you, take heed to what I write. It’s time he be held accountable, after contriving a long career forcing accountability from others.


Don't misunderstand, I don't have the time of day for the process of preying on people the way that the individuals listed do . . . however, to equate Danny to Benny Hinn, or Shelly to Joyce Meyers is preposterous (while this hasn't been done specifically with definitive word, the suggestion is laid out there in the minds of readers and usually intentionally, by the mere posting of "information")! It is a continuation of attempts to vilify individuals and carry out personal vendetta or agenda against an individual or certain doctrinal emphasis. The current legal actions will take time to progress, but as Greg Matthews said long ago, there are issues that can only play out in the courts of this land - to insure that all truth is divulged, about ALL sides involved.

- FHB

This post has been edited by fallible humanbeing: Nov 9 2007, 01:30 PM

[Clay]

FHB, your last post.... I agree with..... it was on point....

[fallible humanbe...]

GM,

My citation is indeed referencing the documents submitted by the 3ABN attorneys. However, subsequent judicial action has supported this and rulings to such end have been made.

- FHB

Appletree:

The post by FHB is complex and subject of misunderstanding. I may have misunderstood it, and if that is so, correct me, as I assume you will do.

I understand the citations in FHBs post to be from a 3-ABN attorney. I understand your post to tell us that they came from the judge.

One of us has misunderstood. Either you misunderstood, and the citation comes from a 3-ABN attorney, or I misunderstood, and it comes from the judge.

Or, perhaps I have misunderstood you.

Is this important? Probably not of major importance. But, I will suggest that it is of value to know whether or not a citation comes from an attorney who represents a client in a case, or from a judge who decides questions in the case.

In any event, it is always of interest to read your comments. Personally, I take them as coming from an important source.

[Panama_Pete]

Don't misunderstand, I don't have the time of day for the process of preying on people the way that the individuals listed do . . . however, to equate Danny to Benny Hinn, or Shelly to Joyce Meyers is preposterous (while this hasn't been done specifically with definitive word, the suggestion is laid out there in the minds of readers and usually intentionally, by the mere posting of "information")! It is a continuation of attempts to vilify individuals and carry out personal vendetta or agenda against an individual or certain doctrinal emphasis. The current legal actions will take time to progress, but as Greg Matthews said long ago, there are issues that can only play out in the courts of this land - to insure that all truth is divulged, about ALL sides involved.

- FHB

The Trinity Foundation was mentioned in the newspaper as the source of Senator Grassley's documents. That's all. No equating, no personal vendetta or agenda. It's just a fact from the newspaper. I had never heard of such an organization until the newspaper mentioned it.

However, when you mention the mere posting of "information" that attempts to "vilify individuals" are you including the following information you, yourself posted? Is that what you were doing and maybe you feel others are using your technique?

It seems to me that the following "information" wasn't meant to compliment Gailon Joy too highly "in the minds of readers" was it? After all, how could co-signing on a car for someone - that is later repossessed - have anything relevant to do with the Massachusettes lawsuit? Be honest, didn't you include the car repossession to cast dispersion on Mr. Joy and to put him in a bad light?

Now, in light of the fact that we have evidence of:

1. embezzlement
2. failure to pay rent (John Alfke, a former landlord, reference on another BB, which also included reference of multiple instances of such acts)
3. car repossession

[Pickle]

Besides that, Pete, if FHB doesn't really have evidence of car repossession, or if it doesn't really mean what he said it meant, perhaps someone out there could accuse him of defamation.

But one thing I wonder about: Why would 3ABN claim to be a creditor when highly placed 3ABN sources have made it crystal clear that the lawsuit isn't about money at all, that it's only about shutting us up? Do we have yet another example of duplicity or hypocrisy on our hands?

Who do we believe? What is really going on?

This post has been edited by Pickle: Nov 9 2007, 03:17 PM

[fallible humanbe...]

Be honest, didn't you include the car repossession to cast dispersion on Mr. Joy and to put him in a bad light?

Honestly speaking, you are wrong on all counts. I merely stated what has been established as fact and tied it to some new information available in recent court filings. You can't point fingers and call for "judging them by their fruits" if you will not do the same with your own trusty leader. Attempt to spin it as you may.

There are multiple situations were unrelated stories are presented and no "direct" accusations made, but the intent is that hopefully other readers will make such manipulated connections and themselves begin to present such as fact. Both you and Robert Pickle have attempted here to incite others to contact Sen. Grassley and now the Trinity Foundation and "report" the "wrong doings" of 3ABN and its employees.

Additionally, there is evidence, one only need search for it on the Internet, in regards to the car repossession . . . as well as other issues that fall into this category of failure to be responsible. Robert can attempt to insinuate that what I have said is defamation, but each item referenced is supported by legal documentation and first person testimony, again, much of it available via the Internet.

Finally, any response in regards to the claims made against Trinity Foundation? I would assume that your advertisement for them indicates that you support them . . . or maybe you don't and promoted contacting them by mistake. This excerpt from a review of the book by Ms. Duncan is truly interesting:

It’s interesting that for all the liberty that such knowledge ought to bring, Anthony’s group as described by Duncan actually lives in an odd antinomian legalism. Anthony promotes cursing and intoxication by alcohol, both prohibited by Scripture while constructing a rigid list of festival attendance and participation which becomes necessary for “believers.” Members were subjected to odd fire walking ceremonies and what was known as the “hot seat,” where Anthony and other members would bring up all of your sins, past and present and air them publicly to make you feel their weight. The idea was that you couldn’t experience grace without understanding the weight of judgment. The effect was breaking people’s wills.

Duncan notes that Ole also teaches that “God abhors the human race,” often explicitly saying “God hates you” and taught that if one left his group, then of course, they were not a true believer. This, coupled with the unspoken rule never to speak critically of leaders (who claimed special insight) led to an uneasy devotion to the rulers of the group, even when they appeared to contradict Scripture. For example, Duncan notes that:

I was told that not praying was a good thing. Prayer was simply an attempt to manipulate God in an effort to get something from Him. Prayer was just talking to God about your problems or concerns or whatever, and thus taking thought for self. Prayer in Ole’s theology, was about the individual trying to get something from God - using God as a cosmic Santa Clause. Besides that, praying was presumptuous. Ole’s rationale was this: “Why would the God of the universe give a flip about you?”

I find it disconcerting that Sen. Grassley has associated his work with this organization as they seem to be exactly the type of entity that would be more than willing to engage in the persecution of God's faithful at the end of time.

- FHB

This post has been edited by fallible humanbeing: Nov 9 2007, 03:51 PM

[Pickle]

I think, FHB, that if you present facts in a way that portrays a picture that doesn't exist, that there could possibly still be a defamation issue.

If there was a dispute over a car because the bank wouldn't accept reasonable terms of payment by someone other than Gailon, and in court the judge told the bank that they had to accept the same sort of terms that were originally offered, and you fail to present that information, what sort of case could be made out of that?

By the way, I hear that Attorney Garrett Boehm argued 3ABN's appeals case yesterday before the 5th Circuit. Did he tell the court that there is no evidence of private inurement like Mike Riva did in his brief? If he did, was it because 3ABN forgot to tell him that such a position is untenable?

How far do we go in supporting 3ABN? If they tell the court there is no such evidence when it is a matter of public record that there is, do we support them anyway and try to blackball anyone who still believes that Seventh-day Adventist ministries must keep the 10 Commandments, including the 9th?

This post has been edited by Pickle: Nov 9 2007, 03:36 PM

[Panama_Pete]

Both you and Robert Pickle have attempted here to incite others to contact Sen. Grassley and now the Trinity Foundation and "report" the "wrong doings" of 3ABN and its employees.
- FHB

The newspapers say it is Senator Grassley's office that would be conducting any investigation to determine if there is any "wrong doing" by any televangelists anywhere at any time.

However, if you find the "wrong doing" shoe fits you, you're certainly free to wear it.

As for Trinity Foundation, I don't know any of the players, but if they're in contact with Grassley, then that's the way the cookie has crumbled, regardless of who they are or what they are.

[Pickle]

I find it disconcerting that Sen. Grassley has associated his work with this organization as they seem to be exactly the type of entity that would be more than willing to engage in the persecution of God's faithful at the end of time.

- FHB

Kind of like Duffy associating with Danny Shelton, would you say?

I mean, at this point we really can't lump in Danny into the category of the faithful can we? And certainly you aren't, for on what points has he proved faithful? In what areas has he demonstrated the character of Christ? How he treats people? How he serves God rather than mammon? How he is always truthful even when it is to his disadvantage? How he turns the other cheek? How he has forsaken all others till death do them part, and only fornication can be a cause for divorce?

[Chez]

Kind of like Duffy associating with Danny Shelton, would you say?

I mean, at this point we really can't lump in Danny into the category of the faithful can we? And certainly you aren't, for on what points has he proved faithful? In what areas has he demonstrated the character of Christ? How he treats people? How he serves God rather than mammon? How he is always truthful even when it is to his disadvantage? How he turns the other cheek? How he has forsaken all others till death do them part, and only fornication can be a cause for divorce?

Bob,
I think that we should be very careful in judging faithfulness. In fact, I believe that whether or not we agree with Danny and his tactics along with his associates and their activities, we should not judge him and no one else. Be careful.


Chez

[Ian]

Edited note
(Note: I do not have a panel to include links or upload files, when these functions come back I will edit this post to include both . . . as of 12:00 CT 9 Nov 2007, I still do not have access to any tools other than to post a text only format . . . obviously Robert Pickle has access to tools to insert links, unless he is hard coding them in himself . . . I can not even get the "Toggle Side Panel" or the "BB Code Help" functions to work . . . I don't know if these tools are being blocked or if their is an internal error situation that is keeping them unavailable . . . 12:45, a little research and I was able to hard code the link in, but can not upload anything.)

I have had the same exact problem since my last post yesterday morning, and have been unable to upload the files I referred to. Maybe others are having a problem of only being able to reply in basic mode as well.

Can one of the Administrators please check and see if all the functions and codes and options in the text editor have become disabled somehow and re enable them? or check and see if there is a forum error?


Ian

edited to add:
I thought maybe I could re enable the posting options in my User profile by myself, but neither the "Options" or "settings" can be edited or accessed in my profile. Can you check this out also?

Thank you.

This post has been edited by Ian: Nov 10 2007, 07:06 AM