Reaping The Whirl Wind, IRS Criminal Investigation of 3ABN Options

[Seraphim7]

There is something to be said for small groups and meeting in private homes at times. However, those here who are promoting this as the better way to have church services need to think about the undue level of stress this could be on women, if carried to excess.

Sorry, in my experience with small group ministry, in our out of ones home, I do not see where the women have been overburdened to care for the group. It is possible one might have a "Marthas" or two in that situation but "IF" it were to happen it would be because of poor planning and/or mismanagement of "people resources". None would have to fear being over burdened because each member of the small "group" is working for the benefit of the whole. Which should be the case with churches where there are buildgins, but sadly is not always the case.

In my city of around 150k, we have a 700-member congregation. While not everyone attends regularly, a large portion do. We have visitors from both the community and out of town SDAs who are able to worship with us because we have a central church building and are not meeting in unknown locations, such as in a private home. . .

Again "if" meetings were held in a persons home I don't see how that qualifies as "unknown locations". It would be the home of somebody one knows if folks were to attend. Small group ministries are not designed, as I understand them, to minister to the needs of church members and community in which it is located. While it is nice when one can entertain visitors from the community and out of town that is not the purpose of a small group ministry.

We have a thriving community services center that ministers to the impoverished with food, clothing and other basic needs... Our sanctuary is a place of celebration...

That is all well and good, but "every" church does not have all that yours has been blessed with...

There is a time and place for congregations to meet in private homes. I can agree with that. But there are areas where a physical building to house the church family is appropriate. I'm going to have to agree with WB on this one.

Though I do not agree fully with all WB has stated I can say Ecc 3:1 To every [thing there is] a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:

[GRAT]

In regard to the stress on the woman, I took it to mean having to have your house perfect each week for the visitors to it. Maybe I went there because house cleaning is not my favorite job and I feel stressed when company is coming.

[Clay]

In regard to the stress on the woman, I took it to mean having to have your house perfect each week for the visitors to it. Maybe I went there because house cleaning is not my favorite job and I feel stressed when company is coming.

thats why good men help their mates so that they don't feel that kind of stress...

[PeacefulBe]

In regard to the stress on the woman, I took it to mean having to have your house perfect each week for the visitors to it. Maybe I went there because house cleaning is not my favorite job and I feel stressed when company is coming.

Exactly

[Johann]

Exactly

Many years ago I found this sign in Germany:

Gott erhalte mir meine Gesundheit und die Arbeitskraft meiner Frau. (May Gud sustain my health and the working strength of my wife)

My wife keeps this sign in the kitchen. It has a drawing of a man resting on a bench watching his wife chopping firewood.

Appropriate???

[Shepherdswife]

Many years ago I found this sign in Germany:

Gott erhalte mir meine Gesundheit und die Arbeitskraft meiner Frau. (May Gud sustain my health and the working strength of my wife)

My wife keeps this sign in the kitchen. It has a drawing of a man resting on a bench watching his wife chopping firewood.

Appropriate???

Johann, you must be a good help to her--or she would not think that sign was funny!

[Johann]

Johann, you must be a good help to her--or she would not think that sign was funny!

Or she might be giving me a hint to rise off the bench and give her a hand

[Richard Sherwin]

This talk of home church reminds me of Sunday mornings around some of our summer bee yards . As you drive down the roads you will see at certain houses many horses and buggies. It's Amish country, and around here at least, they meet for their services in private homes. They have no churches but they do have little one room schools, and no I don't know why they don't meet in them. Wonderful people, we can learn a lot from them and their ways.

[Pickle]

The memorial idea is rooted in Scripture. The Passover was a memorial, and the pillar of stones at the Jordan was a memorial. The Bible says that when the kids asked, "What's that for?" then you'd have an opportunity to share truth or sacred history with them. Memorials are to call to remembrance and to spark the curiosity and endless questions of kids.

Our church, school, publishing, and medical buildings are to draw attention in this way to the true Sabbath.

Now if you think about it, lots of cars or buggies parked outside a home the same day each week can do the same sort of thing, if that's all you can do.

[SoulEspresso]

The memorial idea is rooted in Scripture. The Passover was a memorial, and the pillar of stones at the Jordan was a memorial. The Bible says that when the kids asked, "What's that for?" then you'd have an opportunity to share truth or sacred history with them. Memorials are to call to remembrance and to spark the curiosity and endless questions of kids.

Our church, school, publishing, and medical buildings are to draw attention in this way to the true Sabbath.

Now if you think about it, lots of cars or buggies parked outside a home the same day each week can do the same sort of thing, if that's all you can do.

My old Greek teacher used to preach a sermon (I bet he still does) on Joshua 4, where they heap up stones after crossing the Jordan river so their descendants would ask what happened. He'd preach it on mission trips where we'd build for the local congregations, and bring it home by saying that the building was a memorial of what God had done for them. Great sermon.

And I look at some of what's been described here--and there's no doubt that God uses buildings dedicated to these purposes. Used correctly, they don't necessarily become idols. One of my churches is being used increasingly like this; another can hardly pay the bills, and their home meetings are more effective anyway.

For home churches to work, you have to have a level of God-enthusiasm I've rarely experienced in my life. I know it can happen, and that gives me faith that the Spirit has not left the Adventist church. But of the churches I've attended, about 3% have that fire. They meet publicly in facilities, but when I was there didn't own their own buildings. And the real action happened in homes anyhow.

I look at North American Christianity, where most of the growing churches are only poaching members from the dying ones. And I look at Scripture and history to the church of the New Testament, which had no paid pastors and no buildings, and got the gospel to the known world in less than a hundred years. Which should we try to learn from? If we do what we've always done, we'll get what we always got.

Sorry for hijacking the thread, btw.

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Dec 5 2007, 10:33 PM

[LaurenceD]

Original Christianity was much different than what we know as Christianity today. And it was different than it's next phase...Paulianity, and definitly different than early Catholicism...or later Protestantism. What we're seeing today, as a further modification of Christianity, is what we'd might call Televangelism. What's next in this never-ending morphology of religion? Ipodianity--interactive instant great messaging?

[SoulEspresso]

Can you text on those new iPods? And here I thought I was up on tech issues ....

... though one thing the early church didn't have to contend with was the Internet. Stats tell us that like 80% of people will get their spiritual sustenance online by 2025.

[AzA]

Stats tell us that like 80% of people will get their spiritual sustenance online by 2025.

80% of which people, in which regions, from which class? (Source.)

On the other hand, if the projections are sound and not just wishful, we'd better make sure they have quality food online to feed on!

[Shepherdswife]

80% of which people, in which regions, from which class? (Source.)

On the other hand, if the projections are sound and not just wishful, we'd better make sure they have quality food online to feed on!

I agree...God has used many different tools down through history, from face to face communication, written word, prophets, illustrations like the sanctuary, donkeys, ravens, and the church--always using whatever he had available in the most effective way possible. Changes in society are happening quickly, and we need to be able to speak their language if we want them (the lost--as in seek and save...) to hear us. 3ABN and Hope Channel are reaching a segment of society with a part of what it means to be a child of God, but there are many who will never watch it--and it is missing the "one another" component. God needs His people to learn to use all the gifts and tools He has blessed them with to work with Him to accomplish His task--seeking and saving...

Technology will be the language of my sons generation...

[PeacefulBe]

Can you text on those new iPods? And here I thought I was up on tech issues ....

... though one thing the early church didn't have to contend with was the Internet. Stats tell us that like 80% of people will get their spiritual sustenance online by 2025.

Exclusively? If so, the spiritual gifts given to each of us to edifiy the body of Christ will need to evolve and adapt to be useful to this new, online version of the Christian church. How do we replace the smiles, handshakes and hugs?

BTW, one may already watch excellent live and archived church services on churchpond and praizevision. Our church, Santa Rosa SDA, also archives the sermons. These are broadcast twice weekly on local cable access channels and are aired in to our local county jail. Our pastor's face has become well known by many in the criminal justice system. When he walks into the jail to visit, it is common to hear "I know you!"

Still, as wonderful as it is to have the option to watch online, it's like good music - wonderful to have it on CD to listen to and enjoy, but doesn't compare to being at a live performance.