Reaping The Whirl Wind, IRS Criminal Investigation of 3ABN Options

[Artiste]

Richard, I did read the above (see my last post), no doubt about it... but you make a good point; it was only referring to physicians.
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"Physicians need to cultivate a spirit of self-denial and self-sacrifice. It may be necessary to devote even the hours of the holy Sabbath to the relief of suffering humanity. But the fee for such labor should be put into the treasury of the Lord, to be used for the worthy poor, who need medical skill but who cannot afford to pay for it."

--Medical Ministry, page 216


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[Green Cochoa]

If there was no biblical support for the statement, should it be found in her writings. I would disregard the statement. There were Drs. in Jesus day, if he didn't feel the need to comment, then there is no need for anyone else to comment either.

Well, the principles are in the Bible. A good read would be Jeremiah chapter 17.

I really don't think you will find it, and if you do in what context? But if she were to say it I would of course reconsider my stance.

I've been around the medical field for most of my life, though I've never been in it except for doing hospital maintenance, and I've never seen any quotes saying that medical workers should give their Sabbath pay to God. Seems pretty extreme to ask a person working 40 hours a week to turn over 8 hours pay when he can barely make ends meet.

Umm...if you are working a forty-hour week, and 8 of those hours are on the Sabbath....that means you've had some other days spent in idleness, I think! (Some of us have done 60+ and none of those on the Sabbath...)

The "no work" principle for the Sabbath has everything to do with the kind of labor one does to support himself or his family. It has everything to do with the ordinary, mundane, types of business that one would do on any weekday. The commandment prohibits all such work--even for servants and animals.

The type of work which is allowed on the Sabbath is that of humanitarian work. It is NOT done for selfish reasons--rather completely unselfish ones--and only when this work could not have been done at another time. If it is possible to arrange to have a particular task done at another time, then it should not be done on Sabbath. With medical work, there are numerous cases of suffering which might be deferred to another day to relieve--but Christ set an example in this area in healing people right away, and not making them suffer longer. In this sense, the medical work is a special work. The Sabbath is a day for doing good. But it is the spirit in which this work is done that is most important. Does one do it to earn a living? No, no! One does it to help others.

Let no man, because he is a physician, feel at liberty to disregard this word of the Lord. He should plan his work so as to obey God's requirements. He should not travel on the Sabbath except when there is real suffering to be alleviated. When this is the case, it is not a desecration of the Sabbath for physicians to travel upon that day; but ordinary cases should be deferred. {Medical Ministry 214.4}

A spirit of irreverence and carelessness in the observance of the Sabbath is liable to come into our sanitariums. Upon the men of responsibility in the medical missionary work rests the duty of giving instruction to physicians, nurses, and helpers in regard to the sanctity of God's holy day. Especially should every physician endeavor to set a right example. The nature of his duties naturally leads him to feel justified in doing on the Sabbath many things that he should refrain from doing. So far as possible, he should so plan his work that he can lay aside his ordinary duties. {Counsels on Health, 236.1}

Genuine medical missionary work is bound up inseparably with the keeping of God's commandments, of which the Sabbath is especially mentioned, since it is the great memorial of God's creative work. Its observance is bound up with the work of restoring the moral image of God in man. This is the ministry which God's people are to carry forward at this time. This ministry, rightly performed, will bring rich blessings to the church. -- Testimonies vol. 6, 266.

I see each of these statements as balanced and in full agreement with the Bible. Jesus demonstrated medical ministry on the Sabbath--but at the same time, He did not go out of His way to do extra work on the Sabbath, nor do we have any record of Him accepting payment for such acts of love.

Blessings,

Greenie.

[calvin]

If preachers can get paid to work on the Sabbath, so can any other Sabbath breakers, err workers. Never heard of a SDA pastor giving back 1/7 of his pay back to the church and paying a tithe on the rest. nough said. I know for a few lazy preachers that is the only day they work.

[Clay]

If preachers can get paid to work on the Sabbath, so can any other Sabbath breakers, err workers. Never heard of a SDA pastor giving back 1/7 of his pay back to the church and paying a tithe on the rest. nough said. I know for a few lazy preachers that is the only day they work.

lol I know that's right....

[LaurenceD]

Don't fear those who work on Sabbath who get paid to save the body, rather fear those who get paid to work on sabbath to save the soul.




ahhh...that was a terrible paraphrase.

[Green Cochoa]

If preachers can get paid to work on the Sabbath, so can any other Sabbath breakers, err workers. Never heard of a SDA pastor giving back 1/7 of his pay back to the church and paying a tithe on the rest. nough said. I know for a few lazy preachers that is the only day they work.

Maybe that's why we've had the discussion about preachers having other occupations.

Anyone have figures on this? I've always been curious about a small fact I learned in college while studying our church history. Apparently, in the early 1900s when preachers first began receiving a full salary from the conferences, church growth was cut in half. I'd be interested in studying that phenomenon a bit more. I think when preachers have other work besides their preaching, it does several good things for the local congregation: 1) puts more "mission spirit" into the task of pastoring, 2) puts more responsibility for shepherding onto the shoulders of the elders and deacons, and 3) puts the preacher into a position to be more in touch with the daily routines of the members.

Blessings,

Greenie.

[Johann]

Maybe that's why we've had the discussion about preachers having other occupations.

Anyone have figures on this? I've always been curious about a small fact I learned in college while studying our church history. Apparently, in the early 1900s when preachers first began receiving a full salary from the conferences, church growth was cut in half. I'd be interested in studying that phenomenon a bit more. I think when preachers have other work besides their preaching, it does several good things for the local congregation: 1) puts more "mission spirit" into the task of pastoring, 2) puts more responsibility for shepherding onto the shoulders of the elders and deacons, and 3) puts the preacher into a position to be more in touch with the daily routines of the members.

Blessings,

Greenie.

There was the time when the best training a preacher could get was to prepare his vocal cords by placing pebbles in his mouth and practice speaking loud enough to stir up an audience.

Seems like it was after World War II when those who had been to war received college tuition from the government that so many religion majors were produced by our colleges that more and more pastors were placed primarily to hover over one or more local churches. I recall that Europeans were shocked to discover this new American trend to place pastors at local churches. At that time young men trained at a mission academy were first placed together with an evangelist as bible workers. Then they were sent out as evangelists on their own, and if they did not produce about 20 baptized souls each year they had to look for some other employment.

I have known a number of those men who managed only to baptize 15 or 19 and therefore did not qualify as pastors. They found other work, but some of them did a great work as local elders and even as lay soul winners.

Ellen White warned against the trend of having preachers hovering over established churches in stead of evangelizing and forming new churches. Times have changed. Now pastors - and select independent ministries - get away with the unthinkable in former days.

This post has been edited by Johann: Dec 29 2007, 12:10 PM

[jakann]

I really don't think you will find it, and if you do in what context? But if she were to say it I would of course reconsider my stance.

I've been around the medical field for most of my life, though I've never been in it except for doing hospital maintenance, and I've never seen any quotes saying that medical workers should give their Sabbath pay to God. Seems pretty extreme to ask a person working 40 hours a week to turn over 8 hours pay when he can barely make ends meet.

"Physicians need to cultivate a spirit of self-denial and self-sacrifice. It may be necessary to devote even the hours of the holy Sabbath to the relief of suffering humanity. But the fee for such labor should be put into the treasury of the Lord, to be used for the worthy poor, who need medical skill but who cannot afford to pay for it."
--Medical Ministry, page 216

Richard,
I already knew the answer before I asked you Richard. I was more interested in finding out your personal relationship to the Spirit of Prophecy as a voice of authority from God. It would be useless for us to discuss any issue if we cannot agree on the final arbiters of theological questions i.e. the Bible and the further truths elucidated through the writings of Ellen White. I do appreciate the fact that you said you would reconsider your stance.

There are a couple things made by this statement by EGW which I think are worth noting. First of all, it is proper for patients seeking care on the Sabbath to pay a fee for that care. Also, the physician may need to deny the blessed rest he/she would receive on the Sabbath and instead labor for the Lord in relieving suffering.

Regarding the hours worked in a work week: Well, is God a tyrant because he asks those to donate their fees to the poor thereby leaving the donor without means to make ends meet? I think not. So, the problem is with us, not Him. May it be a case of our medical/pay system being built after the order of the world and not after God's order?

Further issues could be discussed such as the fact that physicians are to be paid no more than pastors. When have you ever seen that happening?
Blessings,
jakann