Domain Names And "3abn", Use of 3ABN Copyright in Domain Names Options

[Ian]

One of the major objectives of the lawsuit against Gailon Joy and Bob Pickle was an attempt to remove from public view material posted on "save3abn" and to put a stop to the use of the "3ABN" trademark in the domain name.

Probably most of you know that "save3abn" was voluntarly closed earlier this month, then opened for 48 hours and closed again.

During the past few days some additional events have taken place that affect "save3abn." The registeration for the deomain names expired and they were not renewed. As result those names came open for use by any others who wanted to purchase them.

Mr Matthews,

First let me say in regards to my post here last night that sometimes my sense of humor gets the best of me, and is not always appropriate or wise, but it was not meant offensively It occurred to me this morning that it may have been taken the wrong way, and perhaps I shouldn't have posted in the manner I did. If my thoughtlessness caused you hurt, embarrassment or offense, I apologize.




Second, in regards to the text I have bolded above from your post, I have a question.

How can this be true when the domain registration for save3abn.com was due to expire on Jan 10, 2008, and was renewed on the 9th and save3abn.orgs registration was due to expire on Jan 14 2008, and was renewed then?


As that is the case, it seems Gailon Joy had to have sold, or transferred or reregistered and changed the info himself?

In addition, both domains are located at the same IP address and on the same server...

The balance of this post contains the documented evidence to support what I am saying here, and asking about.

This pdf file contains the exibits attached to the complaint 3ABN filed in court and served on Gailon Joy and Bobert Pickle. If you scroll down to the bottom and past the trademark and patent documents, (which may also be pertinent to this discussion) You will find copies of Gailon Joy's original registrations of those 2 websites and the dates I am citing.

 3abncomplaintexibitsdoc1_4040607.pdf ( 285.01K ) Number of downloads: 1


Here are the updated registrations:

Whois Record for Save3abn.com
( Save 3 Ab n )
Click to Edit

Front Page Information
Website Title: This website has been disconnected.
Title Relevancy 100%
AboutUs: Wiki article on Save3abn.com
SEO Score: 80%
Terms: 42 (Unique: 32, Linked: 0)
Images: 1 (Alt tags missing: 1)
Links: 0 (Internal: 0, Outbound: 0)
Indexed Data
Alexa Trend/Rank: #3,124,535 The lower the rank the better. 1,596,808 ranks over the last three months.
Compete Rank: #442,363 with 2,648 U.S. visitors per month
Quantcast Rank: #555,395
Wikipedia: Listed on 1 pages
Registry Data
ICANN Registrar: MYDOMAIN, INC.
Created: 2007-01-09
Expires: 2009-01-09
Registrar Status: clientDeleteProhibited
Registrar Status: clientTransferProhibited
Registrar Status: clientUpdateProhibited
Name Server: NS1.BLUEHOST.COM (has 396,181 domains)
Name Server: NS2.BLUEHOST.COM
Whois Server: whois.namesdirect.com
Server Data
Server Type: Apache/2.2.6 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.6 OpenSSL/0.9.8g DAV/2 mod_auth_passthrough/2.1 mod_bwlimited/1.4 FrontPage/5.0.2.2635
IP Address: 69.89.27.211 [Whois] [Reverse-Ip] [Ping] [DNS Lookup] [Traceroute]
IP Location United States - Utah - Orem - Bluehost Inc
Response Code: 200
Blacklist Status: Clear
SSL Cert: box211.bluehost.com expires in 3244 days.
Domain Status: Registered And Active Website
DomainTools Exclusive
Registrar History: 1 registrar
NS History: 1 change on 2 unique name servers over 1 year.
IP History: 1 change on 2 unique name servers over 1 years.
Whois History: 54 records have been archived since 2007-01-13.
Reverse IP: 782 other sites hosted on this server.
Monitor Domain: [Monitor this domain] Set Free Alerts on save3abn.com
Free Tool: Download DomainTools
Whois Record

Registrant:
c/o SAVE3ABN.COM
P.O. Box 821650
Vancouver, WA 98682
US

Registrar: NAMESDIRECT
Domain Name: SAVE3ABN.COM
Created on: 09-JAN-07
Expires on: 10-JAN-09
Last Updated on: 10-JAN-08

Administrative Contact:

c/o SAVE3ABN.COM
P.O. Box 821650
Vancouver, WA 98682
US
+1.360-449-5933

Technical Contact:

c/o SAVE3ABN.COM
P.O. Box 821650
Vancouver, WA 98682
US
+1.360-449-5933

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.BLUEHOST.COM
NS2.BLUEHOST.COM

Whois Record for Save3abn.org
( Save 3 Ab n )
Click to Edit

Front Page Information
Website Title: Save 3ABN (Three Angels Broadcasting Network)
Title Relevancy 100%
Meta Description: Finding 3ABN amidst a swirl of moral, financial, and ethical allegations, a group of committed Seventh-day Adventists attempt to mend a broken network and save the cause of God from reproach.
Description Relevancy: 73% relevant.
AboutUs: Wiki article on Save3abn.org
SEO Score: 98%
Terms: 833 (Unique: 407, Linked: 109)
Images: 4 (Alt tags missing: 4)
Links: 46 (Internal: 43, Outbound: 2)
Indexed Data
Registry Data
Created: 2007-01-14
Expires: 2010-01-14
Whois Server: whois.pir.org
Server Data
Server Type: Apache/2.2.6 (Unix) mod_ssl/2.2.6 OpenSSL/0.9.8g DAV/2 mod_auth_passthrough/2.1 mod_bwlimited/1.4 FrontPage/5.0.2.2635
IP Address: 69.89.27.211 [Whois] [Reverse-Ip] [Ping] [DNS Lookup] [Traceroute]
IP Location United States - Utah - Orem - Bluehost Inc
Response Code: 200
Blacklist Status: Clear
SSL Cert: box211.bluehost.com expires in 3244 days.
Domain Status: Registered And Active Website
DomainTools Exclusive
Registrant Search: "Domains by Proxy, Inc." owns about 5,339,365 other domains
Email Search: is associated with about 1 domains
NS History: 1 change on 2 unique name servers over 1 year.
IP History: 1 change on 2 unique name servers over 1 years.
Whois History: 10 records have been archived since 2007-01-29.
Reverse IP: 782 other sites hosted on this server.
Monitor Domain: [Monitor this domain] Set Free Alerts on save3abn.org
Free Tool: Download DomainTools
Whois Record

Domain ID:D137232849-LROR
Domain Name:SAVE3ABN.ORG
Created On:14-Jan-2007 05:11:41 UTC
Last Updated On:11-Jan-2008 02:44:02 UTC
Expiration Date:14-Jan-2010 05:11:41 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR)
Status:CLIENT DELETE PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT RENEW PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED
Status:TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Registrant ID:GODA-041817483
Registrant Name:Registration Private
Registrant Organization:Domains by Proxy, Inc.
Registrant Street1:DomainsByProxy.com
Registrant Street2:15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City:Scottsdale
Registrant State/Province:Arizona
Registrant Postal Code:85260
Registrant Country:US
Registrant Phone:+1.4806242599
Registrant Phone Ext.:
Registrant FAX:+1.4806242599
Registrant FAX Ext.:
Registrant Email:
Admin ID:GODA-241817483
Admin Name:Registration Private
Admin Organization:Domains by Proxy, Inc.
Admin Street1:DomainsByProxy.com
Admin Street2:15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Admin Street3:
Admin City:Scottsdale
Admin State/Province:Arizona
Admin Postal Code:85260
Admin Country:US
Admin Phone:+1.4806242599
Admin Phone Ext.:
Admin FAX:+1.4806242599
Admin FAX Ext.:
Admin Email:
Tech ID:GODA-141817483
Tech Name:Registration Private
Tech Organization:Domains by Proxy, Inc.
Tech Street1:DomainsByProxy.com
Tech Street2:15111 N. Hayden Rd., Ste 160, PMB 353
Tech Street3:
Tech City:Scottsdale
Tech State/Province:Arizona
Tech Postal Code:85260
Tech Country:US
Tech Phone:+1.4806242599
Tech Phone Ext.:
Tech FAX:+1.4806242599
Tech FAX Ext.:
Tech Email:
Name Server:NS1.BLUEHOST.COM
Name Server:NS2.BLUEHOST.COM

This post has been edited by Ian: Jan 24 2008, 06:27 AM

[Observer]

Mr Matthews,

First let me say in regards to my post here last night that sometimes my sense of humor gets the best of me, and is not always appropriate or wise, but it was not meant offensively It occurred to me this morning that it may have been taken the wrong way, and perhaps I shouldn't have posted in the manner I did. If my thoughtlessness caused you hurt, embarrassment or offense, I apologize.

Ian:

I have been off of the Internet for many hours and therefore had no idea as to your point of reference. But, I eventually found it.;

No apology needed.

No offense taken.

When people are discussing, frankly, issues that are emotionally loaded it may be appropriate to interject a point of humor. Your post was of a nature that I might do myself. So, I can hardly take offense.

However, my wife does tell me that I sometimes am inappropriate in what I think if funny. Oh well, what does she know? She is only my wife.

Peace,

[Observer]

Mr Matthews,

Second, in regards to the text I have bolded above from your post, I have a question.

How can this be true when the domain registration for save3abn.com was due to expire on Jan 10, 2008, and was renewed on the 9th and save3abn.orgs registration was due to expire on Jan 14 2008, and was renewed then?
As that is the case, it seems Gailon Joy had to have sold, or transferred or reregistered and changed the info himself?

In addition, both domains are located at the same IP address and on the same server...

The balance of this post contains the documented evidence to support what I am saying here, and asking about.

This pdf file contains the exibits attached to the complaint 3ABN filed in court and served on Gailon Joy and Bobert Pickle. If you scroll down to the bottom and past the trademark and patent documents, (which may also be pertinent to this discussion) You will find copies of Gailon Joy's original registrations of those 2 websites and the dates I am citing.

 3abncomplaintexibitsdoc1_4040607.pdf ( 285.01K ) Number of downloads: 1


Here are the updated registrations:

Ian:

I do not have a good enough response to your questions to post a resposne to it.

So, I guess that this is the best that I can do.

However, I have reviewed your attachment. I find an interesting statement on paget 16 of that document. In that statement, as I understand it, it states words to the effect that the WHOIS date you cited may not be the actual date of expiration of the domain name as per the agreement with the organization that registered the domain name. In view of this statement in the document that you provided us, in my thinking, it is quite possible that my statement was accurate.


We might look at it this way:

1) Gailon's agreement to maintain the domain name expired.
2) The organization that registered it for him still maintained the rights itself.
3) With the expiration of Gailon's agreement, that organization facilitated the transfer of the domain name to another party.
4) Gailon's only function in this matter was to allow his rights to the domain name to expire.

On the basis of your document, the above sounds reasonable to me. So, maybe I do have a good response?

Peace,



This post has been edited by Observer: Jan 24 2008, 06:52 AM

[Ian]

"...No apology needed. No offense taken...."

Thank you Mr Matthews, your reply is both kind and gracious.

In reference to the rest of my post and questions, I have another question...

It is not necessarily for you, but just one I had as I read trough the court documents and files on PACER.

As I mentioned, the pdf file in my post contains the exhibits attached to the complaint 3abn filed against mr Pickle and Mr Joy. They answered that complaint jointly, including the entire complaint in their filed answer.

They, even referred to the exhibits I just posted above, on the save3abn website:

http://www.save3abn.com/3abn-and-danny-v-j...e-complaint.htm

"Those interested in seeing the seven exhibits referred to by the lawsuit concerning 3ABN's trademark registrations and Gailon Joy's registration of Save3ABN.com can view these on Pacer when they become available."

So why would Gailon Joy state the following 8 mos later in his Objection filed in response to the court appointed Trustees Motion to sell in the separate bankruptcy case?
6According to the Buyers,
a The Debtor is the registered owner of two domain names "www.save3abn.com" and www.save3abn.org"

a) The Debtor was unaware that these registrations had been made in his
name

and more:

f) The content placed on the save3ABN.com website has been entirely the
product of the work of this Bob Pickle, as the Debtor would not have the
technical expertise to do any part of it

then turn around and claim:

h) The Debtor has a right to practice his religion and a right to freedom of
the press under the First Amendment and this proposal of sale is no more
than a backhanded effort by the Buyers to prevent him or hinder him in
his exercise of both rights;
i) The Court should not condone this sale because the only reason the
Buyers have to make the purchase is to purchase his silence, and the
Buyers and this Court have no power to order his silence

9 a) The Buyers have conspired to lower the sales price to an unconscionable
amount in violation of 11 U.S.C. § 363 (n).
c) The Trustee is not acting to a fiduciary standard because the Buyers have
shown they are willing to pay far more than the price offered the Trustee,
namely to their lawyers, all without any sure guarantee that they will be
able to effect the transfer of the domain names to the Buyers.
d) The Trustee would be better to have bargained for the $500,000 or more
that the Buyers have paid their lawyers, and if that is not what has been
paid, the Debtor requests discovery be had on the amount the Buyers
would be willing to pay for these domain names.

then again:

a) The Debtor does not believe he is the owner of the property in question,
because he has paid nothing for it and has taken no personal actions in its
creation, other than to send occasional notes containing the same
AUReporter messages he has been sending for decades

If that'
s really the case, one wonders how the sale of the website could prevent him from practicing his religion and be an attempt to silence him then, or a violation of any of his rights....

This is all from his same document filed in opposition to the sale of the website.(posted http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...;#entry232921in after Mr Pickle also claimed "It's not my site"

Is anyone's head spinning yet?


I have other questions also, but am not sure they are on topic on this thread.

I am beginning to understand more and more that the trustees statement to the court when he attempted to drop the bankruptcy:

"Rather, the debtor has demonstrated his lack of truthfulness, as a result, his allegations are questionable"

may not have just had to do with his NEMCO affiliation, and contradiction of what he earlier claimed under oath, or his failure to list the save3abn as a asset, (or as a debt-- considering Pickle now claims to be a creditor... and a rather large debt at that considering it's over 15,000 dollars and the debt he claimed only amount to around 20,000)

And sadly, I am reminded that the last time Gailon Joy filed bankruptcy it led to a embezzlement charge and conviction, one held up even after appeal.

[awesumtenor]

"...No apology needed. No offense taken...."

Thank you Mr Matthews, your reply is both kind and gracious.

In reference to the rest of my post and questions, I have another question...

It is not necessarily for you, but just one I had as I read trough the court documents and files on PACER.

As I mentioned, the pdf file in my post contains the exhibits attached to the complaint 3abn filed against mr Pickle and Mr Joy. They answered that complaint jointly, including the entire complaint in their filed answer.

They, even referred to the exhibits I just posted above, on the save3abn website:
So why would Gailon Joy state the following 8 mos later in his Objection filed in response to the court appointed Trustees Motion to sell in the separate bankruptcy case?
6According to the Buyers,
a The Debtor is the registered owner of two domain names "www.save3abn.com" and www.save3abn.org"
and more:
then turn around and claim:
then again:
If that'
s really the case, one wonders how the sale of the website could prevent him from practicing his religion and be an attempt to silence him then, or a violation of any of his rights....

This is all from his same document filed in opposition to the sale of the website.(posted http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...;#entry232921in after Mr Pickle also claimed "It's not my site"

Is anyone's head spinning yet?
I have other questions also, but am not sure they are on topic on this thread.

I am beginning to understand more and more that the trustees statement to the court when he attempted to drop the bankruptcy:

"Rather, the debtor has demonstrated his lack of truthfulness, as a result, his allegations are questionable"

may not have just had to do with his NEMCO affiliation, and contradiction of what he earlier claimed under oath, or his failure to list the save3abn as a asset, (or as a debt-- considering Pickle now claims to be a creditor... and a rather large debt at that considering it's over 15,000 dollars and the debt he claimed only amount to around 20,000)

And sadly, I am reminded that the last time Gailon Joy filed bankruptcy it led to a embezzlement charge and conviction, one held up even after appeal.

Your continued attack of Pickle and Joy still does not change the allegations made about Danny and 3ABN, nor does it make those allegations any less credible. While it may make some alter their perception of Pickle and/or Joy the problem you and others in your camp have yet to deal with is that while Pickle and Joy have been the collectors and collators of the allegations against Danny et al, the allegations do no originate with them so your attempts to discredit them leaves the allegations they have brought out largely untouched.

But you seem to believe your doing so derives some benefit... however even if Danny's lawyers are successful in getting the save3abn website taken down, how are you going to attack the people who have put up the information on other sites whose owners ad maintainers you do not know?

The information will still be out there and in spite of your repeated attempts to discredit Pickle and Joy, the story continues to have legs...

So your campaign to discredit them has done what, exactly?

In His service,
Mr. J

[Ian]

Ian:

I do not have a good enough response to your questions to post a resposne to it.

So, I guess that this is the best that I can do.

However, I have reviewed your attachment. I find an interesting statement on paget 16 of that document. In that statement, as I understand it, it states words to the effect that the WHOIS date you cited may not be the actual date of expiration of the domain name as per the agreement with the organization that registered the domain name. In view of this statement in the document that you provided us, in my thinking, it is quite possible that my statement was accurate.
We might look at it this way:

1) Gailon's agreement to maintain the domain name expired.
2) The organization that registered it for him still maintained the rights itself.
3) With the expiration of Gailon's agreement, that organization facilitated the transfer of the domain name to another party.
4) Gailon's only function in this matter was to allow his rights to the domain name to expire.

On the basis of your document, the above sounds reasonable to me. So, maybe I do have a good response?

Peace,

Yes, you raiise the shadow of a doubt, but also a question of how somebody else unrelated to Joy would know all of this if the whois records and dates were iincorrect?

[Ian]

Your continued attack of Pickle and Joy still does not change the allegations made about Danny and 3ABN, nor does it make those allegations any less credible. While it may make some alter their perception of Pickle and/or Joy the problem you and others in your camp have yet to deal with is that while Pickle and Joy have been the collectors and collators of the allegations against Danny et al, the allegations do no originate with them so your attempts to discredit them leaves the allegations they have brought out largely untouched.

But you seem to believe your doing so derives some benefit... however even if Danny's lawyers are successful in getting the save3abn website taken down, how are you going to attack the people who have put up the information on other sites whose owners ad maintainers you do not know?

The information will still be out there and in spite of your repeated attempts to discredit Pickle and Joy, the story continues to have legs...

So your campaign to discredit them has done what, exactly?

In His service,
Mr. J

I am sorry, everytime I am somewhat inclined to answer you, suddenly out of nowhere the theme from Jaws starts playing loudly,and insistently and I am overcome by two things, the realization that it would benefit no one, and a strong desire to head to peaceful waters.


Peace..

This post has been edited by Ian: Jan 24 2008, 11:15 AM

[Observer]

Yes, you raiise the shadow of a doubt, but also a question of how somebody else unrelated to Joy would know all of this if the whois records and dates were iincorrect?

I suspose they could ask him if, under the circumstances of the lawsuit, he planned to continue the registration.

However, I do not know if that happened.

This post has been edited by Observer: Jan 24 2008, 11:50 AM

[Ian]

I suspose they could ask him if, under the circumstances of the lawsuit, he planned to continue the registration.

However, I do not know if that happened.

Thank you.

[awesumtenor]

I am sorry, everytime I am somewhat inclined to answer you, suddenly out of nowhere the theme from Jaws starts playing loudly,and insistently and I am overcome by two things, the realization that it would benefit no one, and a strong desire to head to peaceful waters.
Peace..

If this were true, you would not have replied at all... and you wonder why your credibility suffers.

as for the posts you do reply to from other posters... it can be argued that they benefit no one and yet...

In His service,
Mr. J

[awesumtenor]

Yes, you raiise the shadow of a doubt, but also a question of how somebody else unrelated to Joy would know all of this if the whois records and dates were iincorrect?

They wouldn't; WHOIS records are notorious for not being updated in a timely manner ( study up on DNS propagation and you'll see why ) and what you may think is a smoking gun is merely smoke and no gun at all.

In His service,
Mr. J

[inga]

I don't have time for a detailed reply to Ian's charges, but I trust that readers recognize there's a lot more to maintaining a domain name and website than the domain renewal fees which are generally less than $10.00 a year. (If I were in Gailon's shoes, I would probably have chosen not to pay the renewal fees or the domain hosting fees. It would also be understandable if I had shared my decision with a few friends and one of them had decided to take the project over.) It was a burden he did not need to continue to bear.

As I understand it, the material for the http://www.Save3ABN.com (now http://www.Save-3ABN.com) site came from Gailon Joy or "AUReporter." It is evident that he allowed Bob Pickle to put it together on the website, since Gailon does not have the expertise. Since the site was registered in Gailon's name, it legally belonged to Gailon Joy, and Bob Pickle was the webmaster. (Webmasters are not generally deemed owners of a website. For instance, I do not "own" http://www.ssent.org, even though I am responsible for maintaining much of the site -- a task I've sadly neglected for too long.) I suspect that Gailon just trusted Bob to take care of the technical details and didn't even know much about domain registration, etc.

The fact that several sites are found at the same web host proves nothing, when that web host is as popular as BlueHost, hosting over 460,000 web sites. It is a "shared" hosting environment, meaning that many sites are found on the same server. They offer a lot for a rather small fee, and if anyone here has thoughts of putting up a web site (whether it's a copy of Save3ABN.com under a different name or any other site), I suggest going to http://wwwAdventTalk.com and clicking on the BlueHost banner at the bottom of the site. It will help some deserving folks out a little, and you will get a good hosting deal.

I will re-post here something I originally posted on Maritime SDA (hence the references to Daryl) and then revised it slightly to post on http://www.AdventTalk.com. Let the reader be aware that, in view of 3ABN's offer to "buy" the domain name, Gailon's legal arguments had to take that fact into consideration. (Hence his suggestion that 3ABN should have offered the half a million dollars that their lawyers cost. etc.)

Following is my original post that was motivated by the trustee's charge of "dishonesty" on the part of Gailon Joy. I saw how easily I might have found myself in the same position. And I would appreciate someone else coming to my defense, since self-defense in such matters doesn't work. Here are my thoughts:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Why did Dan Shelton & 3ABN offer to buy the Save3ABN website?

After all the site was not copyrighted. It had no potential to create income, and anyone could reproduce it since it was clearly marked "not copyrighted." And now we are seeing a proliferation of copies of the original website.

But I'm guessing that the proliferation of 3ABN content is not likely to stop Danny & friends from their legal harassment of Gailon Joy in the bankruptcy case.

It seems that for $5,000.00 they want rights to so much more than the website.

Note this from  Ian's post on BlackSDA:

33 Filed & Entered: 11/30/2007
Motion to Sell
Docket Text: Motion filed by Trustee Janice G. Marsh for Sale of Property Under Section 363 ( (1) all domain names and (2) all prepetition claims against Three Angels Broadcasting Network, Inc., and its officers, directors and shareholders and employees, including Danny Shelton with certificate of service (Marsh, Janice) Additional attachment(s) added on 12/4/2007 (jk, USBC).

  JMBankdoc33113007.pdf ( 27.57K ) Number of downloads: 11

  JMBankdoc33_1113007.pdf ( 22.87K ) Number of downloads: 8

You can go to  Ian's post at BlackSDA for clickable links to the documents above.

I read the trustee's reasons for denying Gailon's petition to dismiss the banktruptcy case and her reasons for deeming his listing of assets "untruthful" -- apparently that he failed to list the website www.save3abn.com as an "asset." (Her reasons are also not in the interest of the creditors but rather self-serving, as you can see by reading the document.)

Well, I don't know about you folks, but in Gailon's shoes, I would never have thought to list the Save3ABN website as an "asset." It was a liability, if anything, because domain and  hosting fees have to be paid, and it produces no income. It is a not-for-profit volunteer endeavor, and who would have thought to attach a dollar value to it except Danny Shelton and his lawyers?

This legal maneuvering was their "best" legal strategy so far -- though I believe it to be patently dishonest one. Any bankruptcy's focus is on money owed. Since Gailon's business dealt with helping folks with predatory mortgages find more reasonable mortgages, any one loan going bad had the potential to put him in a bad situation. In his case, I understand, several loans went bad. So he felt himself forced into filing for bankruptcy in order to give him opportunity to give him some financial relief. It is to Gailon's credit that he figured out a strategy that made this filing unnecessary (and I can understand that he needed time to do this).

Hower, by this legal maneuver, Danny has prevented Gailon from carrying on business in a normal manner and arranging his affairs so he could pay off his creditors. Danny & his lawyers had no business entering into the bankrupcy proceedings at all because Gailon did not owe them any money! By what legal vagaries his lawyer's intervention was even considered is beyond my understanding. (Perhaps Gailon knows more about it?)

Can you really, honestly blame Gailon, in the midst of a bankruptcy, for not thinking of www.save3ABN.com as an asset?! Would you have thought of your volunteer work as an asset?

Personal Example:
I own several web sites that cost me money and are strictly not-for-profit and aimed to serve. (In my case, they are serving homosexually oriented Christians whose aim is to live in submission to God's will, as contrasted with the propaganda of the gay community, including SDAKinship which lobbies for full acceptance of "gay marriage" in the Adventist church.

One of my sites is  http://www.gladventist.org I certainly wouldn't think of listing it as an "asset" in a bankruptcy case. But if I should be forced to declare bankruptcy, SDAKinship could, potentially, insert itself into the proceedings by precisely the same maneuvering as Dan Shelton did with Gailon Joy. I already know they deem Gladventist.org as "hurtful" to their cause. When we started this outreach, other Adventist organizations were afraid to be in any way connected to this endeavor for fear of reprisal from the gay community. (Think legal and physical attacks, sabotage, house break-ins to gain access to computers, etc. -- all of which have happened in the past.)

http://www.gladventist.org would become an "asset" only after someone (likely SDAKinship) should offer to buy it. Like Danny Shelton vs. Gailon Joy, they have much more money at their disposal than I -- though not as much as Danny Shelton, I'm sure.

In the same manner, Save3ABN.com became an asset only after 3ABN offered to buy the domain, and, of course, that was their reason for offering to buy it. Gailon Joy clearly did not foresee this, or he might have listed the domain name as an "asset," even though it could hardly be counted as such.

Another analogy might be Daryl Fawcett with this web site. If he should be forced into bankruptcy, should he declare this site as an asset? (Is this really an income site for you, Daryl? I see you do have a PayPal button, so maybe you're making $3,000.00 a month?? )) Gailon's site didn't have a PayPal button, by the way.

Though no one really knows, it could be that the Shelton/3ABN legal strategy was to
1)financially ruin Gailon Joy by making it impossible for him to avail himself of the usual remedies of a bankruptcy filing and making it impossible for him to earn income (this was through the filing of various motions). Is this is one of Danny's ways of "demonstrating God's love"?
2)deny Gailon Joy the remedy of a counter suit to recover some of the costs incurred through the filing of a frivolous law suit against him
3) possibly deny him the use of the factual evidence against wrong-doing by Danny Shelton that would demonstrate their law suit to be frivolous. (I'm not sure about this one because it shouldn't be possible, but the language allows for this.)

Folks, I think this is playing really dirty, and I wish both Gailon Joy and Bob Pickle had access to just 10% of the legal resources that Danny Shelton has. Even a little support would help, if there are folks out there who can contribute even $25.00 a piece, I'm sure it would be gratefully accepted. (After all 100 x $25.00 is $2,500.00 -- perhaps a drop in the bucket to the likes of Danny Shelton, but significant to someone like Bob Pickle.) These families are under terrific financial strain.

By contrast, Danny Shelton has access to unlimited funds through his "anonymous donors." He can afford to wear out Gailon Joy and Bob Pickle by repetitive and essentially frivolous motions. These cost time and money to oppose, and it's a well-used legal strategy used by the "haves" against the "have-nots."

This issue is not just a matter of brother taking brother to court. It is much worse than that.

How long, O Lord, will you allow this to continue?
~~~~~~~~~~~ end of original post ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
There are some illuminating replies on www.AdventTalk.com, which I won't reproduce here, since anyone can read that forum without necessarily registering.

This post has been edited by inga: Jan 24 2008, 12:34 PM

[PeacefulBe]

I am sorry, everytime I am somewhat inclined to answer you, suddenly out of nowhere the theme from Jaws starts playing loudly,and insistently and I am overcome by two things, the realization that it would benefit no one, and a strong desire to head to peaceful waters.
Peace..

Ian, allow me to add my two cents worth in here with a personal observation. While I have failed to maintain a positive spirit in some of my postings, have gotten irked and allowed a bit of cynicism and vitrol to get the better of me here and there, it is also my own strong desire to head towards peaceful waters.

Early on here the fur flew as those members arriving to support 3abn and Danny lashed out. It seemed that SOP was to slash and burn. Many members here jumped into the fray and attacked right back. I'm sure that some on both sides were well-intentioned in their contentious dialogue, but little progress was made towards truth. FHB seemed to be nearly the only 3abn supporter who consistantly took the time to discourse on the actual issues.

Recently, though, even before the 3abn Forum was put on a time out for the contentiousness that was far too prevalant, I noticed a trend towards restraint and the bringing forward of documentation by several of those considered 3abn supporters. Overall, most of what you have posted on this thread rises to the level of bringing forward helpful documentation that supplies truth and greater illumination in a non-combative manner.

From the beginning of my membership here on BSDA my personal desire has been to learn the truth in some of these matters. With all of the spin that has been put out by both sides it is likely that many issues are now so muddied that the truth may never be known. However, if both sides could bring the documentation and verified evidence forward without manipulating or spinning it has has been way overdone in the past, there might yet be hope at some progress towards truth.

Thank you, Ian for taking this positive turn in direction.

Now, as to the topic..... I did my own Whois search yesterday as well. I wonder if Johann, Daryl and others, who have joined themselves so closely to Bob and Gailon by becoming owners of web sites that carry the content of save3abn and have 3abn in their names, have carefully thought through the risk they are taking? I hope they are willing to take the legal consequences if there are any. Are they aware of the amount of stress, time and money Bob and Gailon have already poured into this law suit? Like others here, I don't know the extent of their liability as registrants for these sites, but I do hope that they investigated such things before they agreed to become the registered owners.

PB

[GRAT]

Isn't that exactly what 3abn or DS or whoever wants everyone to do - be quiet and run scared because they have money and might take legal action as is often threatened ?

[Ozzie]

Isn't that exactly what 3abn or DS or whoever wants everyone to do - be quiet and run scared because they have money and might take legal action as is often threatened ?

That has been my impression all along.