Domain Names And "3abn", Use of 3ABN Copyright in Domain Names Options

[Ian]

I don't have time for a detailed reply to Ian's charges...

Nevertheless it is a bit lengthy,Inga.. and while it is commendable that you are so loyal to Gailon Joy and so determined to defend him against what you see as damaging to him based on my post. I simply do not have the time either. Nor the energy, or inclination to argue with what for the most part are your personal opinions and views and rationalizations and justifications. Nor do I think it would accomplish anything. So most of that I have removed.

I am going to address some select statements and comments you have made, where I feel you have either chosen to disregard and gloss over what has been posted about this, or perhaps didn't see it. I am quoting Gailon Joy himself in response, actually the same quote, (although there are more if you require them- just ask) so it should be very relevant and of interest to you, at least..

I don't have time for a detailed reply to Ian's charges, but I trust that readers recognize there's a lot more to maintaining a domain name and website than the domain renewal fees which are generally less than $10.00 a year. (If I were in Gailon's shoes, I would probably have chosen not to pay the renewal fees or the domain hosting fees....It was a burden he did not need to continue to bear.

Gailon Joy, according to his own testimony (in Bankruptcy court at least) had no financial burden to bear.

"a) The Debtor does not believe he is the owner of the property in question, because he has paid nothing for it and has taken no personal actions in its creation, other than to send occasional notes containing the same AUReporter messages he has been sending for decades"
Gailon Joy, Bankruptcy Document 47, filed 12/14/07

As I understand it, the material for the http://www.Save3ABN.com (now http://www.Save-3ABN.com) site came from Gailon Joy or "AUReporter." It is evident that he allowed Bob Pickle to put it together on the website, since Gailon does not have the expertise.

Again, according to Gailon Joy's same testimony:

"a) The Debtor does not believe he is the owner of the property in question, because he has paid nothing for it and has taken no personal actions in its creation, other than to send occasional notes containing the same AUReporter messages he has been sending for decades"
Gailon Joy, Bankruptcy Document 47, filed 12/14/07

Since the site was registered in Gailon's name, it legally belonged to Gailon Joy, and Bob Pickle was the webmaster. (Webmasters are not generally deemed owners of a website...

Again, according to Gailon Joy's testimony:


"a) The Debtor does not believe he is the owner of the property in question, because he has paid nothing for it and has taken no personal actions in its creation, other than to send occasional notes containing the same AUReporter messages he has been sending for decades"
Gailon Joy, Bankruptcy Document 47, filed 12/14/07
.

The fact that several sites are found at the same web host proves nothing..

o.. kay. First, it's not just several, every single domain name and mirror site is located on that server in Utah, with the same IP#.. FYI: www.picklepublishing .com is also on bluehost, but has a separate IP#, as do many other sites unrelated to save3abn and it's mirror sites located on that host.

Second-- Does the fact that ALL those sites list the same exact residential phone number in (orchards) Vancouver, Washington prove anything?

Does the fact that the billing for every one of those sites goes to the same exact post office box, again in Vancouver,WA prove anything?

I submit, that even though there's always going to be those who try and wave things away as proving nothing, or attempt to babble over the facts, for most, it means something.

I'll leave off here for the moment with the following:


' Come, Watson, come. "the game is afoot!" '
Sherlock Holmes in "The adventures of the Abbey Grange" quoting from Henry V, act III, scene 1.


I'd like to reply to one more thing later, your allegation against the court appointed Trustee as I consider that a serious thing...

This post has been edited by Ian: Jan 25 2008, 10:25 AM

[Ian]

Isn't that exactly what 3abn or DS or whoever wants everyone to do - be quiet and run scared because they have money and might take legal action as is often threatened ?

There's always at least 2 sides or views.

Here's mine:

There were initial answers to their questions, then attempts at resolution through ASI, then warnings, and when that went unheeded and Pickle and Joy continously accused all involved or trying to help resolve things of being biased, or bought or compromised by DS and 3ABN, and all the attempts turned into more reasons to find fault and accuse DS and 3ABN?


Next a cease and desist letter was sent which got the proverbial thumbing of the nose, and they turned up their efforts and claims and allegations even more. So Pickle and Joy are being asked to be accountable and responsible for what they have done to damage individuals and a ministry. Defamation of character is against civil law, and it is against God's law. Sin. They have a chance to prove their case if able and prove it isn't defamation of character/libel in a place where standards and laws and guidelines are enforced on both parties by an impartial third party...

3ABN is not suing for personal gain, they are suing for damages, and loss, even the civil laws in Ancient Israel allowed for that, as detailed in the OT. Our Church doesn't have a civil court, we have go to Ceasar for those things with our division of Church and State, and we can read where even Paul who is often quoted here about suing brethren, had to appeal to ceasar for justice.

This as far as I can tell is the only way left to deal with the unreasonable...

The tactics and kind of arguments they are using against FHB right now, are the very same they have used against D.S. and 3ABN, and all involved during this whole sad sorry and ugly public mess.

Moving on...

I'd like your opinion of the following, as to whether you consider it such a threat as you talk about in your post?

You make pointed claims that many of FHB's statements in recent weeks have crossed the line and constitute libel and defamation. Please post links and the text to clearly show this. " GrandmaNettie

Gailon Joy:
In the event you have a need to know. I would refer you to BSDA and I am sure you could find the same ones I have copied as exhibits from FHB and Ian.

Rather than try and fuel the flames further, Ms Nettie, why don't you complete your most important calling and find out what the basis is for their misconception? It may lead to a reconciliation and avoid the need to seriously expand the pending litigation. Now how much better that role would be!!! Conciliation...a novel idea that could leave one bewildered in their search for peace! But one that should be the goal, nevertheless.

This post has been edited by Ian: Jan 25 2008, 11:58 AM

[LaurenceD]

So Pickle and Joy are being asked to be accountable and responsible for what they have done to damage individuals and a ministry. Defamation of character is against civil law, and it is against God's law. Sin.

As you can see, folks, case settled, as always. But, doesn't Ian's comment caves in on itself? He flirts with defamation himself in his description ("what they have done") yet no one of any legal authority has agreed with him...who has done what, in reality or as accused. Not strange though, considering the source. Acknowledgment that damage to the ministry has possibly been self-inflicted, or influenced by other ouside factors, seems entirely missing, as always. As for God's law" and "sin" well, any correction here go without saying.

[Johann]

Discussions. . .

Assumptions . . .

It was quite a discovery that such a renowned institutions as "Google" is not copyrighted in all countries. Look for Google in certain other countries and you find quite a different busines or institution than the one you use as a search engine on the net.

For many years I read diligently every copy of Writers Digest, including articles on copyright. One of the things that amazed me to learn through those articles was that the contents of a book, booklet, or article is copyrighted, even if a copy has not been deposited. A writer has the copyright to his creation. But the lawyers of writers claimed that a title or headline cannot be copyrighted. So a title is not the same as a trade name.

If you know better than what I learned, then let me know. I understood that I have the full right to publish a new book using the same title as any bestseller, as long as the contents of the book is not the same, and I can also use the title of a magazine article as long as my article is not the same.

[Seraphim7]

Mr. Matthews,

It would seem that your claim that they are "out of the reach of the US legal system" is based on nothing more than mere speculation. Do you have case law that will back up that claim, or is merely your hope that this is the case? Trademark infringement is trademark infringement. Can you substantiate your speculation?

Interesting...

FHB: You hae raised valid questions. I am not informed enough as to the specifics on those issues to even engage in speculation. So, I cannot respond. In my personal opinion, some of your questions are more valid than others. But, I am not going to speculate on this. People who want to know shoud seek the council of an appropriate legal specialist.

Your statement reflects my observation of Mr. Thompson's commentary.

[shadowdancer]

Ian wrote:

Gailon Joy, according to his own testimony (in Bankruptcy court at least) had no financial burden to bear.

"a) The Debtor does not believe he is the owner of the property in question, because he has paid nothing for it and has taken no personal actions in its creation, other than to send occasional notes containing the same AUReporter messages he has been sending for decades"
Gailon Joy, Bankruptcy Document 47, filed 12/14/07

I have been scratching my head ever since I read this. Something just doesn't ring true with the wording of this document. Did Gailon Joy really sign these documents, and are they for real or was this just an attorney move?

I remember reading where the attorneys put things in the 3abn lawsuit: "3abn is non-denominational and preaches a non-denominational message." Was that with 3abn's agreement and knowledge? I would rather think it was an attorney move for whatever reason or just an ignorant mistake, rather than believe that 3abn deliberately lied about the message they preach. I guess I want to believe this is much of the same on both sides.

I am sure someone knows the explanation for the apparent goofs.

[runner4him]

Here are some of the websites that are now in operation:

www.savedfrom3abn.com
www.save-3abn.com
www.3ABNexamined.info
www.3abninvestigated.info
www.3abncritiqued.info
www.3abnanalyzed.info
www.analyzing3abn.info
www.evaluating3ABN.info
www.save-3abn.info

All of the other websites contain the content previously posted on "save3abn."

In view of what we have seen develop in the past few days, I wonder how many more websites will spring up and where in the world they will be located.
I

I guess "The Clones" are at work....there are many more web sites up now in addition to the ones above.

Does anyone have an actual count?

[Ian]

I guess "The Clones" are at work....there are many more web sites up now in addition to the ones above.

Does anyone have an actual count?

No, sorry, some poor individuals appear to be running amuk, perhaps they are legion....

This post has been edited by Ian: Jan 31 2008, 09:47 AM

[Ian]

I have been scratching my head ever since I read this. Something just doesn't ring true with the wording of this document. Did Gailon Joy really sign these documents, and are they for real or was this just an attorney move?....I am sure someone knows the explanation for the apparent goofs.

I'm sure Gailon Joy should be the one asked. yes he did sign them although it appears to be inconsistant with other things he's said and done...

This post has been edited by Ian: Jan 31 2008, 09:54 AM

[Pickle]

Ian, I looked for a signature and couldn't find one. Want to post a picture of your copy?

[justice4jesus]

I'm sure Gailon Joy should be the one asked. yes he did sign them although it appears to be inconsistant with other things he's said and done...

If Gailon should be the one asked, then why did you go ahead and "answer" it? Under whose authority do you offer this "answer"?

[Ian]

Ian, I looked for a signature and couldn't find one. Want to post a picture of your copy?

I already posted a copy of the entire document on the "3ABN adds new board member" thread:
http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...mp;#entry234216

But you are right, we need to always be accurate. It bears Heal's signature, and it is signed as follows:

Respectfully Submitted,
Gailon Arthur Joy,

By His Attorney,

/s/ Laird J. Heal
Laird J. Heal, Esq...

[Ian]

Mr. Matthews,

It would seem that your claim that they are "out of the reach of the US legal system" is based on nothing more than mere speculation. Do you have case law that will back up that claim, or is merely your hope that this is the case? Trademark infringement is trademark infringement. Can you substantiate your speculation?

Here is an interesting quote that to some degree is in this vein, taken from:

STATEMENT OF MICHAEL K. KIRK
EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR
AMERICAN INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY LAW ASSOCIATION

BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON COURTS AND INTELLECTUAL PROPERTY
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
OVERSIGHT HEARING ON INTERNET DOMAIN NAME TRADEMARK PROTECTION

NOVEMBER 5, 1997 (LINK)
This too, adds to the consideration of the legalities of recent activities:
(Source: Intellectual Property Law article written by Owen Smigelski, Esq)
- FHB

Greetings FHB,

The issues raised by Mr Matthews and questioned here by yourself are interesting, at least to me.

In retrospect it seems I may have inadvertently taken the thread offtopic...

So getting back to the topic at hand, and in considering all these issues, I think what the United Nations, WIPO has to say about this may be relevant, and informative here.. (What I have read so far is interesting..)

World Intellectual Property Organization


The member nations and parties to the various treaties seem to include the countries, and posters which may, or may not be involved here.

The US of A
Australia
Canada
Iceland
Norway
etc...

-- Ian


Side note:
I also found this Nov-28-07 article from the Washington post, if not exactly relevant, at least of interest here:

Dell Takes Cybersquatters to Court PC Maker Alleges Domain Registrars Profited on 'Confusingly Similar' Names

This post has been edited by Ian: Feb 4 2008, 11:31 AM

[Johann]

Looking at it from the American side it may appear like the rules are similar. But my life experience living in many different countries, has shown me that rules and laws are not interpreted the same way in all countries. The huge American/International businesses have discovered that judges do not look at laws in the same way everywhere.

Even sentences for breaking laws vary greatly.

Add to this that American power and influence has deteriorated tremendously as the centers of finacial power has moved away from the United States and been diverted to other centers in Europe and Asia during the past few weeks. For many years America has been the center of power for the whole world. You in America may not notice the difference, and your politicians will try to hide it from you.

Take a look at how more difficult it is to sell houses and property lately. Suddenly your home is worthless. Financial power structures have collapsed, and the world is not the same. For better or for worse!

[YogusBearus]

Looking at it from the American side it may appear like the rules are similar. But my life experience living in many different countries, has shown me that rules and laws are not interpreted the same way in all countries. The huge American/International businesses have discovered that judges do not look at laws in the same way everywhere.

Even sentences for breaking laws vary greatly.

Add to this that American power and influence has deteriorated tremendously as the centers of finacial power has moved away from the United States and been diverted to other centers in Europe and Asia during the past few weeks. For many years America has been the center of power for the whole world. You in America may not notice the difference, and your politicians will try to hide it from you.

Take a look at how more difficult it is to sell houses and property lately. Suddenly your home is worthless. Financial power structures have collapsed, and the world is not the same. For better or for worse!

Johann, while I can’t see that your post has a lot to do with the points about intellectual property rights of the post you were responding to, I do find it nevertheless quite interesting. I think you have some valid observations about financial power shifts. America has done a good job of doing things that are most definitely not in our selfish interest as a country. The current financial crisis regarding housing is mostly self inflicted and caused by a combination of greed by mortgage originators, lax underwriting oversight, and the willingness of Americans to spend more than they can afford.

There are other areas that most certainly are responsible for America being financially overextended. We just can’t seem to break out of the cycle of being the only country in the world that can be counted on to:

• Rush relief to any country dealing with disaster
• Provide multi-billion dollar aid packages year after year to struggling countries regardless of whether they are friendly to us or not
• Spend our fortune and the precious blood of our young in defending weak countries against aggression worldwide

I guess we really should revise some of our policies to be more in line with our European and Asians “friends” but I for one am proud that this nation has always been willing to do more than just talk…



-bear