Sacrificing Yourself For "the Ministry", another 3ABN spinoff Options

[Clay]

To what extent should we sacrifice ourselves for the sake of "the ministry" or "the church?"

Listening to the dialogue now about the conditions at 3ABN, I believe that well meaning christians felt they were doing the right thing for the sake of that "ministry." My question though is this, if there is something morally or spiritually wrong with a ministry or a church, what obligation does a christian have to continue sacrificing themselves for that ministry?

At what point can it be said, this is wrong and should not be allowed to continue? Or are christians to keep silent and hope for the best?

[Guest_statrei_*]

To what extent should we sacrifice ourselves for the sake of "the ministry" or "the church?"

Never! You should only sacrifice yourself, should the need arise, for people.

[Clay]

Never! You should only sacrifice yourself, should the need arise, for people.

makes sense... sacrifice for people not things... how about ideas? The phrase being, "they sacrificed themselves for the good of the country..." Or does country = people?

[PaperTigers]

I think saying NEVER sacrificing yourself is going a little to the extreme... There are times when I sacrifice my wants all the time for other people.. I think the line is when you, yourself are suffering from your sacrifices... whether it be physically, emotionally or spiritually. I know personally, when I was working at 3ABN there was a point in time where I didn't even want to go to church because I couldn't stand all the stuff that was going on.. That is when I knew that my sacrificing had gone too far. There is a line that you have to draw when things are good. So that when things start getting bad, you know how far you will go and then go no farther. And that line is different for every individual..
It's a matter of great prayer, because you want the good to outweight the bad, but sometimes it just doesn't.

[Panama_Pete]

To what extent should we sacrifice ourselves for the sake of "the ministry" or "the church?"

Listening to the dialogue now about the conditions at 3ABN, I believe that well meaning christians felt they were doing the right thing for the sake of that "ministry." My question though is this, if there is something morally or spiritually wrong with a ministry or a church, what obligation does a christian have to continue sacrificing themselves for that ministry?

At what point can it be said, this is wrong and should not be allowed to continue? Or are christians to keep silent and hope for the best?

Today, most ministries are corporations. The Corporation, itself, is a piece of paper in your Secretary of State's filing cabinet.

Why, on earth, would you sacrifice yourself for a piece of paper in a filing cabinet?

(Unless, of course, the incorporation paper is made from Strathmore's 20 percent cotton and linen blend. Otherwise, I see no sense in sacrificing yourself.)

This post has been edited by Panama_Pete: May 4 2006, 02:19 PM

[beartrap]

Perhaps I am a bit jaded, but I tend to take the term "ministry" very lightly these day. Everyone with a religious agenda, and everyone out to make a buck on the religious market calls their organization (or scam) a ministry. Perhaps we should look at the meaning of the word in the American Heritage Dictionary:

ministry (n.) The act of serving; ministration.
ministry (n.) The profession, duties, and services of a minister.
ministry (n.) A governmental department presided over by a minister.

And what would be the definition of the verb "minister"

minister (n.) One who is authorized to perform religious functions in a Christian church, especially a Protestant church.
minister (v.) To attend to the wants and needs of others: Volunteers ministered to the homeless after the flood. See synonyms at tend2
minister (v.) To administer or dispense (a sacrament, for example).

"The act of serving" and attending "to the wants and needs of others" generally involves some form of sacrifice for a person, or people. Under the humanitarian definition of ministry, I can see some merit in a balanced amount of self-sacrifice.

Under a religious definition of the term "ministry", I can see where people may have a burden to disseminate what they see as a superior form of religion, or set of doctrines, and would therefore engage in a certain amount of sacrifice for that cause. However, when people sacrifice deeply, as in cutting back on nourishment and climate control, for the purpose of giving what is thereby saved to a "ministry" where the leader uses a significant portion of that personal sacrifice to provide for financial excesses for himself, his family, and friends... and the people sacrificing know that their money is being used in those excesses, their sacrifice has not only gone too far, they should be reading the other 3ABN spin-off thread. They have fallen into an abusive relationship with an idea, a person, a corporation, or something.

This post has been edited by beartrap: May 4 2006, 03:29 PM

[Guest_statrei_*]

makes sense... sacrifice for people not things... how about ideas? The phrase being, "they sacrificed themselves for the good of the country..." Or does country = people?

Country implies people in that context.

[Clay]

Perhaps I am a bit jaded, but I tend to take the term "ministry" very lightly these day. Everyone with a religious agenda, and everyone out to make a buck on the religious market calls their organization (or scam) a ministry.

I would submit that we should from the very start be on the skeptical if not jaded side.... but I digress...

[alramwill]

Country implies people in that context.

Not always. Some do treat their home country and any associated symbols with a high level of almost blind allegiance. This has nothing to do with its people in most cases.

[Denny]

3 If I give everything I own to the poor and even go to the stake to be burned as a martyr, but I don't love, I've gotten nowhere. So, no matter what I say, what I believe, and what I do, I'm bankrupt without love.

1 Corinthians 13 The Message Bible


I'll go with Paul on this one.....

[Guest_statrei_*]

Not always. Some do treat their home country and any associated symbols with a high level of almost blind allegiance. This has nothing to do with its people in most cases.

Oh, they may have a narrow view of which people are important but it is about people.

[higherground2003]

To what extent should we sacrifice ourselves for the sake of "the ministry" or "the church?"

Listening to the dialogue now about the conditions at 3ABN, I believe that well meaning christians felt they were doing the right thing for the sake of that "ministry." My question though is this, if there is something morally or spiritually wrong with a ministry or a church, what obligation does a christian have to continue sacrificing themselves for that ministry?

At what point can it be said, this is wrong and should not be allowed to continue? Or are christians to keep silent and hope for the best?

Perfect topic and I run into this problem all the time. Personally, I draw the line between serving God, and helping others. In my opinion there is a huge difference. At church, I am often times asked to do things and when I say "no" they say that I should always be willing to serve God. In my opinion, what they asked me to do has nothing to do with God, it was just something that THEY wanted done. We never seem to agree on that topic.

Example. Let's say the church decides to go out into the park and have a concert. Well to me, that is a personal choice, i may not want to go to the park. Especially, if you never asked my opinion. Often times a handful of people jump and and do stuff and expect 100 percent participation. Even if they never bother to get other opinions. If I say no, they act like I am saying no to God. My thing is, "God never told me to go to the park either. This is something YOU want to do."

10 + 5. that has nothing to do with "God", in my opinion that is a personal choice. The Bible says NOTHING about 10 + 5.





This post has been edited by higherground2003: May 5 2006, 09:30 AM

[beartrap]

For the sake of ministry, ethics, integrity, morals, dignity, and self respect are all too often the biggest sacrifices made.

This post has been edited by beartrap: May 5 2006, 09:44 AM

[Clay]

Perfect topic and I run into this problem all the time. Personally, I draw the line between serving God, and helping others. In my opinion there is a huge difference. At church, I am often times asked to do things and when I say "no" they say that I should always be willing to serve God. In my opinion, what they asked me to do has nothing to do with God, it was just something that THEY wanted done. We never seem to agree on that topic.

Example. Let's say the church decides to go out into the park and have a concert. Well to me, that is a personal choice, i may not want to go to the park. Especially, if you never asked my opinion. Often times a handful of people jump and and do stuff and expect 100 percent participation. Even if they never bother to get other opinions. If I say no, they act like I am saying no to God. My thing is, "God never told me to go to the park either. This is something YOU want to do."

10 + 5. that has nothing to do with "God", in my opinion that is a personal choice. The Bible says NOTHING about 10 + 5.

good points Higherground.... I am with you on this one..... folks make up stuff and then want to say its God directed.....

[Nuggie]

Perfect topic and I run into this problem all the time. Personally, I draw the line between serving God, and helping others. In my opinion there is a huge difference. At church, I am often times asked to do things and when I say "no" they say that I should always be willing to serve God. In my opinion, what they asked me to do has nothing to do with God, it was just something that THEY wanted done. We never seem to agree on that topic.

Example. Let's say the church decides to go out into the park and have a concert. Well to me, that is a personal choice, i may not want to go to the park. Especially, if you never asked my opinion. Often times a handful of people jump and and do stuff and expect 100 percent participation. Even if they never bother to get other opinions. If I say no, they act like I am saying no to God. My thing is, "God never told me to go to the park either. This is something YOU want to do."

10 + 5. that has nothing to do with "God", in my opinion that is a personal choice. The Bible says NOTHING about 10 + 5.

I think it all goes back to the fact that we just don't think for ourselves, and there are a whole lot of reasons for that...the "group think" mentality will do more to destroy our church than any external factor IMHO.