Proofs, Or Lack Thereof, A concern of causing false assumptions Options

[IMM]

I guess when I was a kid I always thought that fleeing to the mountains was a literal thing we had to do. That is what I was taught. Throughout this discussion it has occurred to me that it could be symbolic. I am not saying that moving out of the cities and embracing a simpler life is bad, I'd love to live in the mountains myself! But what Clay said about salt is true also. We can't all live in the literal mountains and fulfill the gospel commission. Think about Psalm 121:1,2

"I will lift up my eyes unto the hills, where my help comes from. My help comes from the Lord who made heaven and earth."

What struck me is how I have been missing another meaning all of my life, and that is of "fleeing to", worshiping, and living in the very presence of the Lord God. I do not have to worry about how to protect myself, I just have to leave everything to Him. That is so hard to do! I want to play a part and help Him do His work. I want to have to plan and flee to a literal place. That may not be what He wants me to do, though. He wants my worship, devotion, trust, and obedience; my whole heart. After praying and contemplating it some more, I studied a few more verses that seemed to complete this picture for me.

Destroy completely all the places on the high mountains and on the hills and under every spreading tree where the nations you are dispossessing worship their gods. Deuteronomy 12:2 (Mountains back then were places of solitude and privacy where people went to worship their gods in various ways. I hate to think what many of them were doing...)

Your love, O LORD, reaches to the heavens, your faithfulness to the skies. Your righteousness is like the mighty mountains... Psalm 36:5,6

Great is the LORD, and most worthy of praise, in the city of our God, his holy mountain. Psalm 48:1

The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness. Psalm 72:3

And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone. Matthew 14:23 (These "mountain" experiences were what sustained Jesus and gave Him the strength to go on.)

When Jesus therefore perceived that they would come and take him by force, to make him a king, he departed again into a mountain himself alone. John 6:15

And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God. Revelation 21:10

The meaning I'm beginning to get is that the "mountains & hills" are any place where I can be in communion with my Father, as Jesus was. A literal mountain setting would be very conducive to that, but I do not know that it is necessary.

[Clay]

good points IMM, thank you for sharing....

[princessdi]

Your belief in EGW is really not a problem, as long as you do not put her words about the Word of God. So there will be no ripping here. However, let's just take your points, one by one.

Ya'll will probably tell me that EGW wrote this at a different time for a different place, but I remember reading she wrote that Enoch would talk with God and would go down and tell the people what God had said and NO it's not in the bible Finally God took him.

There was no Bible then, the only way they got God's messages was by word of mouth, which continued witht he establishment of the Prophets throughout the Old Testament.

I do read and believe in ELLEN G. WHITE and I will not apologize for this, so go ahead and rip me apart. Jesus was raised in the hills of Nazareth, Moses fled from Egypt and cared for Jethro's sheep for forty years (maybe not the entire time) before returning to Egypt.

I confess I am not sure if that makes Jesus upbringing in the country, or just the suburbs. I don't believe Joseph could be much of a success in carpentry if people had to travel that far to take advantage of his services( we must consider the mode of transportation then), then there would be that whole delivery aspect of the buisness. Seclusion is not a sound business decision, BTJM.

Moses fled because he killed someone. God used that experience to reach him and get him ready for the work he had. He was far from seclusion travelling around with his Jethro's tribe.

A lot of what EGW wrote is timeless counsel, however, logically a whole lot of it needs to be taken in context of her time and place.

[Denny]

to rip you apart might foster a martyr complex... I will simply remind you that Jesus lived and died for you... when read correctly and in context Ellen White points you to Jesus... for you to suggest that you believe in anyone other than Jesus Christ is to give the impression that you are something other than a follower of Him... is that what you would have us believe?

ITA Clay, the martyr complex used to try and end theological debate, this is a discussion board and if one has problems with people disagreeing and equate that to being ripped apart perhaps one is not ready for debate........? The fact remains there is no mandate for believers en masse to up sticks and 'flee the cities' what individuals choose to do is a different matter. God blesses the country and city dweller and those who live in boats the same.
Once again cities arise cos people choose to congregate together if enough flee New York to the country you will end up with New York part 2 elsewhere.

[Jnana15]

I believe, Jnana, the danger comes in when we ourselves received this as a word from God, then expand it to others. Now, you stated that you and your husband try and convince others to do the same, but can you imagine what would happen if they all took you up on the offer? Who will be left to evangelize the world? As Steve says, how will we be the salt of the earth, if all the salt is congregated in one place? ALso, if Jesus is our example, He stayed" in the mix". So did the disciples/apostles. Also, amore pratical question is, will your wilderness still be wilderness when the time of trouble comes? What is the cloest new housing development, and when did it get there? Where is the next? Will you keep moving as they catch up to you? When EGW first wrote this I am sure there were many who fled to the mountains, who would today find themselves in the middle of a city.

Just a few questions for consideration..........

Di, I was talking about family members. Missionary work (I believe) starts at home. I have lost several family members to devil worshipping and gun shots. Wouldn't you want to try and get your family out of the city so that they can at least try to hear God's voice? I am a fouth generation Adventist and look what I have seen. A cousin opened the door for us to leave and I'm still here and he went back to the city to witness. Lost his wife to another man and his business. My family is dying and turning their backs from God trying to stay "in the mix" and they aren't examples of Jesus. We all have different gifts and some of us are not disciples/apostles.

Yes my wilderness is still the wilderness. The rattlesnakes haven't convienced me to leave nor the bears. Some people own as much as 100 acres and are not willing to sell. Where ever God wants me to go, I am willing. I believe that God will only allow those who are sincere to leave the cities and are willing to go without the comforts of city live. JMHO

You just won't let me go to

This post has been edited by Jnana15: May 29 2007, 12:11 PM

[Jnana15]

Your belief in EGW is really not a problem, as long as you do not put her words about the Word of God. So there will be no ripping here. However, let's just take your points, one by one.



[[color=#993399]I confess I am not sure if that makes Jesus upbringing in the country, or just the suburbs. I don't believe Joseph could be much of a success in carpentry if people had to travel that far to take advantage of his services( we must consider the mode of transportation then), then there would be that whole delivery aspect of the buisness. Seclusion is not a sound business decision, BTJM.

Well, we do have our own business, used car dealerhip to be exact. Have to travel to the Bay area to buy. We were told our business wasn't wanted where we live. (see, we're black) What if we did't trust in God to supply all of our need? Five years later we are still in business until the man we rent from told us it's time to move on. Where, to the city? Only God will lead us.
We have had people travel as far from Oakland to purchase and even some from the L.A. area. Why, because they wanted to to business with the strange people that were closed on Sabbath and who were honest with their business transactions.

[princessdi]

The one thing I know that as I grow as in my relationship with God, that He is capable of communicating and protecting His children, where ever they are. I believe it was Lawrence who stated that the devil worhippers were also in the country. Secluded living is no guarantee against the evil forces. Only a relationship with God, where ever you are. I know you see the coming out of the cities as the only way for them to be saved, however, God has a countless number of ways at His disposal.

ALL of us should be dsciples, that is not a spiritual gift.

The question is how long will your wilderness be wilderness. People die and their children inherit or not, eventually somebody comes to them with the right price, etc. The fact that your neighbors won't sell now is no guarantee that the land around you will never be sold and developed. Who has to go without comforts to live in the country, nowadays?.......all it takes is a satellite dish, a pc/laptop, and USPS. Plus, you ahve made an assumption that I would have always lived or currently live in the city. Also, that i am unwilling to let go of................what, exactly? It was mistaken.

Di, I was talking about family members. Missionary work (I believe) starts at home. I have lost several family members to devil worshipping and gun shots. Wouldn't you want to try and get your family out of the city so that they can at least try to hear God's voice? I am a fouth generation Adventist and look what I have seen. A cousin opened the door for us to leave and I'm still here and he went back to the city to witness. Lost his wife to another man and his business. My family is dying and turning their backs from God trying to stay "in the mix" and they aren't examples of Jesus. We all have different gifts and some of us are not disciples/apostles.

Yes my wilderness is still the wilderness. The rattlesnakes haven't convienced me to leave nor the bears. Some people own as much as 100 acres and are not willing to sell. Where ever God wants me to go, I am willing. I believe that God will only allow those who are sincere to leave the cities and are willing to go without the comforts of city live. JMHO

You just won't let go

[mozart]

very good post IMO Mr. P. ty

Hi Denny.

It is a fact that the "cities" of the Bible were specks compared to what we call cities today. A professor at Andrews told me ... I wish I could remember the specifics ... that you could put X number of Jerusalems on the site of Andrews University. So Nazareth was like a country town as it was, since it was a lot smaller than Jerusalem, though you are right about it being wicked.

Jesus testified by His Spirit through His prophet a century ago that Enoch lived on the country but would travel to the city to minister. From what I've read, it wasn't a daily commute. Maybe he's stay for a week or month or so. But it is clear that he did go back to his country outpost to get refreshed, taking others with him out of the city.

So we do know with certainty where Enoch lived.

As far as Moses goes, the training he got amidst the splendor of Egypt was so inadequate that God had to put him out to pasture for 40 years, till he had learned the lessons he needed to amidst God's great outdoors.

[Jnana15]

Jnana, what have we done to you for you to come on to us like that? You are so defensive one would almost think that we had ripped your heart out of your body and boiled it for supper. have we injured you that much, or do you typically treat people like that, even before you get to know them?

Oh My goodness!! I would never want you to feel this way. I have a lot of respect for the people here and their opinions. I have thanked God for all of the good trials and bad.

Please forgive me if I have come across negative to you. This is not my intent. I want to see Jesus too much to offend here or anywhere. My husband is right and I need to listen to him. I talk too much.

By

This post has been edited by Jnana15: May 29 2007, 12:29 PM

[mozart]

God bless you Jnana15. if others want to judge you based on knowing all too little about you then that is their problem. there will always be those, on both sides, with a bitter, self-righteous and harsh manner. some would rather be right than to "love their neighbor as themselves" or to "reason one with another" in Christian love. that, according to Jesus, would make them wrong whichever side they are coming from.

Well, I have seemed to found people in these mountains that want to know more about Jesus and the Sabbath. Maybe this is where God wants me to witness. My kid has been asked to play the organ in a Methodist church on a Sunday service. Is this a witness? Are we putting our light under a clay pot by saying yes? I have Adventist telling me to be careful that I don't bring demons home with us from visiting other churches. God has blessed my kid with a gift that we are willing to share with others. We daily put on the WHOLE amour of God.

There are two Adventist churches in these mountains and all they do is fight for power and control. I watch friends leave and go to other churches (not Adventist churches) for the lack of love and concerns for them. I don't condemn them, I try to show them the love of Jesus

Going back

[Clay]

Oh My goodness!! I would never want you to feel this way. I have a lot of respect for the people here and their opinions. I have thanked God for all of the good trials and bad.

Please forgive me if I have come across negative to you. This is not my intent. I want to see Jesus too much to offend here. My husband is right and I need to listen to him. I talk too much.

By

for what is worth, I was not offended, I thought we were just discussing an issue intensely....

[PeacefulBe]

Two comments....

1) It is quite possible that the "flee to the hills" should be taken metaphorically rather than physically, especially since those who use it do so primarily because of what they have read in Ellen White's writings. But those should also note that she also says that we should make no physical preparation for that day... but the preparation we make should be spiritual.

Yes, I agree that fleeing to anywhere might be meant to be taken metaphorically. Plus, in our human capacity there is so much about the future that we just plain don't know. Will all 300+ million of the US population still be alive? Will there have been a cataclysm that has wiped out much of the population? What state will the infrastructure of this country, or even the world be in at that time? Revelation is pretty clear that it will be in a mess.

Ah, spiritual preparation.... Too often we get caught up in a perceived need to understand all of the details about the future events and forget that the most important job we have is to keep our focus on our relationship with God and how He will save us.

2) Even if one takes the Ellen White prediction that the church will look as though it is about to fall but it will not fall and applies it only to the Adventist church... there are still reasons why that may not be reason for us to take that as an absolute assurance that our church organization will continue as it is until Christ comes.

One primary reason for not doing so is the very nature of predictive prophecy... the essence of which is that all such predictions are conditional... thus if a prediction is made concerning an organization... that prediction is only valid so long as the organization continues as it was at the time the prediction was made. If it changes significantly, God will change his plans for it. He has stated this explicitly and clearly in scripture.

A second reason is that "the church will stand" does not eliminate the possibility that the church spoken of might need considerable re-organization in order to stand... and it doesn't even eliminate the possibility that it might divide into segments, each of which would organize as a separate entity.

A third reason is that prophecy is very often given for far broader application that what the prophet himself realizes when he writes the prophecy. Thus even though Ellen herself might have had only the SDA church in mind when she wrote, God could have intended this to apply to ALL of his visible churches on earth... represented by the myriad different "denominations". And with Christianity as a whole under attack as it is today... especially in some sectors of the world... it is quite possible that Christianity as a whole may "look as though it is going to fall".... and the promise that it will not fall, but stand to the end, may be one that includes ALL denominations that are a part of this wider Christian brotherhood of churches.

How are we to determine when a prophecy is predictive or conditional and when a prophecy really means the event will happen? Are there markers within the prediction/prophecy that would cue us to its type? I understand that the prophecy that Jonah took to Nineveh was conditional, much to Jonah's chagrin, but how do we approach all others? Could the world NOT wonder after the beast and not receive his mark after all? Could the roman authorities suddenly get with the program and acknowledge they were wrong to think they had the authority to change God's law? Where is the "sure word of prophecy" that is given to strengthen our faith when we see these things happen?

[Clay]

perhaps while people are looking for Rome to do something they are missing the rome-like qualities/characteristics found within the very .org that they belong?

I would submit that we have attempted to use "prophecy" in a manner God never intended it to be used....

[mozart]

gregory that was unfair. i understand her feelings. she was just sharing her thoughts and then a couple of people jumped in with harsh words pointing fingers at her as if she had done something terribly wrong. all she said was that she was impressed to move to the mountains and it has been a blessing to her and her family. what is in people's hearts that they would criticize someone for that. that's just not the right spirit. our conversation is constructive and fruitful as long as we "share" our ideas and thoughts without making people feel bad because of what they think. there is no need for that. each of us have our gifts and God's plan for each of us is different. who is to be the judge of that?
it is the devil's plan to turn constructive into distructive in no time at all if we do not prayerfully consider what we say and how we say it. so let's get "back on topic" instead of on each other's backs.

Jnana, what have we done to you for you to come on to us like that? You are so defensive one would almost think that we had ripped your heart out of your body and boiled it for supper. have we injured you that much, or do you typically treat people like that, even before you get to know them?

there is no time like the present to "flee to the mountain of God" by surrendering completely. that, i personally think, is our biggest challenge.




This post has been edited by mozart: May 29 2007, 01:08 PM

[Observer]

gregory that was unfair. i understand her feelings. she was just sharing her thoughts and then a couple of people jumped in with harsh words pointing fingers at her as if she had done something terribly wrong. all she said was that she was impressed to move to the mountains and it has been a blessing to her and her family. what is in people's hearts that they would criticize someone for that. that's just not the right spirit. our conversation is constructive and fruitful as long as we "share" our ideas and thoughts without making people feel bad because of what they think. there is no need for that. each of us have our gifts and God's plan for each of us is different. who is to be the judge of that?
it is the devil's plan to turn constructive into distructive in no time at all if we do not prayerfully consider what we say and how we say it. so let's get "back on topic" instead of on each other's backs.

I can respect your opinion that I was unfair. I do not agree with it. She said it. Why should I not have responded with a comment regarding what she said? Perhaps it is O.K. to let people know how they present themselves.

By the way, if I had really wanted to be hurtful, I could have been a lot worse.