The Color Line.... In The Church?, how are we divided? Options

[PeacefulBe]

Di,
So now I can better understand how the Black pastors in Northern California would have the attitudes they do as represented in the Ricardo Graham article. Sad.

What do you hear from your pulpit as far as racial reconciliation or racial issues? In recent years I don't think I have heard much in the way of sermons specific to racial issues. Our local racially and economically diverse congregation has its usual laodician struggles but it doesn't appear that racism is among them. I hope I'm not looking through rose-colored glasses.

[Clay]

Di,
So now I can better understand how the Black pastors in Northern California would have the attitudes they do as represented in the Ricardo Graham article. Sad.

What do you hear from your pulpit as far as racial reconciliation or racial issues? In recent years I don't think I have heard much in the way of sermons specific to racial issues. Our local racially and economically diverse congregation has its usual laodician struggles but it doesn't appear that racism is among them. I hope I'm not looking through rose-colored glasses.

most adventist pastors in North America are not preaching unity or reconciliation I don't think PB..... the issue as I see it will still be power sharing... I don't see leaders black or white willingly giving up power.... so dismantle and start with something completely different might be the solution.... think about the lies that have been told on both sides....

Think about what happens when too many black people join a white church..... you think people are really ready for unification?

[princessdi]

Dr. Graham is a good friend of mine. He is a good man, had some issues when he was president, but I appreciated his position as being difficult in many levels. We had a few talks about things in general and issues in particular. Grew up with his wife, also. great people they are!

Well, for now, we dont' hear much from our pulpit of substance so now is not a good time to comment, but historically the injustices are mentioned,a nd recognized as a part of racism that hsould not be a prt of our churches. There is also acknowledgement that sadly our church is truly not ready for the healing so badly needed in this area.

Di,
So now I can better understand how the Black pastors in Northern California would have the attitudes they do as represented in the Ricardo Graham article. Sad.

What do you hear from your pulpit as far as racial reconciliation or racial issues? In recent years I don't think I have heard much in the way of sermons specific to racial issues. Our local racially and economically diverse congregation has its usual laodician struggles but it doesn't appear that racism is among them. I hope I'm not looking through rose-colored glasses.

[Clay]

Here is an example of the possibilities....

When the delegates arrived in Memphis on October 17, 1994, there was an electric air of expectation that something wonderful was about to happen. The conference theme was Pentecostal Partners: A Reconciliation Strategy for 21st Century Ministry. Over 3,000 persons attended the evening sessions in the Dixon-Meyers Hall of the Cook Convention Center in downtown Memphis. Everyone was aware of the racial strife in Memphis where Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated in 1968. Here, it was hoped, a great racial healing would take place. The night services reflected the tremendous work done by the local committee in the months before the gathering. Bishop Gilbert Patterson of the Temple of Deliverance Church of God in Christ, and Samuel Middlebrook, Pastor of the Raleigh Assembly of God in Memphis, co-chaired the committee. Although both men had pastored in the same city for 29 years, they had never met. The Memphis project brought them together.

The morning sessions were remarkable for the honesty and candor of the papers that were presented by a team of leading Pentecostal scholars. These included Dr. Cecil M. Robeck, Jr. of Fuller Theological Seminary and the Assemblies of God, Dr. Leonard Lovett of the Church of God in Christ, Dr. William Turner of Duke University and the United Holy Church, and Dr. Vinson Synan of Regent University and the Pentecostal Holiness Church. In these sessions, the sad history of separation, racism and neglect was laid bare before the 1,000 or more leaders assembled. These sometimes chilling confessions brought a stark sense of past injustice and the absolute need of repentance and reconciliation. The evening worship sessions were full of Pentecostal fire and fervor as Bishop Patterson, Billy Joe Daugherty and Jack Hayford preached rousing sermons to the receptive crowds.

The climactic moment, however, came in the scholar's session on the afternoon of October 18, after Bishop Blake tearfully told the delegates, Brothers and Sisters, I commit my love to you. There are problems down the road, but a strong commitment to love will overcome them all. Suddenly there was a sweeping move of the Holy Spirit over the entire assembly. A young black brother uttered a spirited message in tongues after which Jack Hayford hurried to the microphone to give the interpretation. He began by saying, For the Lord would speak to you this day, by the tongue, by the quickening of the Spirit, and he would say:

My sons and my daughters, look if you will from the heavenward side of things, and see where you have been ‚ two, separate streams, that is, streams as at flood tide. For I have poured out of my Spirit upon you and flooded you with grace in both your circles of gathering and fellowship. But as streams at flood tide, nonetheless, the waters have been muddied to some degree. Those of desperate thirst have come, nonetheless, for muddy water is better than none at all.

My sons and my daughters, if you will look and see that there are some not come to drink because of what they have seen. You have not been aware of it, for only heaven has seen those who would doubt what flowed in your midst, because of the waters muddied having been soiled by the clay of your humanness, not by your crudity, lucidity, or intentionality, but by the clay of your humanness the river has been made impure.

But look. Look, for I, by my Spirit, am flowing the two streams into one. And the two becoming one, if you can see from the heaven side of things, are being purified and not only is there a new purity coming in your midst, but there will be multitudes more who will gather at this one mighty river because they will see the purity of the reality of my love manifest in you. And so, know that as heaven observes and tells us what is taking place, there is reason for you to rejoice and prepare yourself for here shall be multitudes more than ever before come to this joint surging of my grace among you, says the Lord.

Immediately, a white pastor appeared in the wings of the backstage with a towel and basin of water. His name was Donald Evans, an Assemblies of God pastor from Tampa, Florida. When he explained that the Lord had called him to wash the feet of a black leader as a sign of repentance, he was given access to the platform. In a moment of tearful contrition, he washed the feet of Bishop Clemmons while begging forgiveness for the sins of the whites against their black brothers and sisters. A wave of weeping swept over the auditorium. Then, Bishop Blake approached Thomas Trask, General Superintendent of the Assemblies of God, and tearfully washed his feet as a sign of repentance for any animosity blacks had harbored against their white brothers and sisters. This was the climactic moment of the conference. Everyone sensed that this was the final seal of Holy Spirit approval from the heart of God over the proceedings. In an emotional speech the next day, Dr. Paul Walker of the Church of God (Cleveland, TN) called this event, ìthe Miracle in Memphis,î a name that struck and made headlines around the world.

That afternoon, the members of the old PFNA gathered for the final session of its history. In a very short session, a motion was carried to dissolve the old, all-white organization in favor of a new entity that would be birthed the next day. But more reconciliation was yet to come!

http://www.pccna.org/history.php The complete story is there....

They were also a church divided... but they allowed the Lord to guide them and unite them in spite of.....

If we continue to divide ourselves based on color, how can we say we are the "true" church?

[SoulEspresso]

Post removed ... timing trouble ... again .... how do you delete a post entirely?

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Apr 9 2007, 02:56 PM

[HUGGINS130]

The first way we can make a difference is to realize that there is a problem in Christian circles. Not too long ago Brother Creflo Dollar took to the airwaves on Hot 107.9 fm a local Atlanta radio station and put on blast this issue of racial inequalities in the pulpits of America. Now many of us have our differing opinions of this man of God but I know him personally and he is calling for the body of Christ to take responsibility for the condition that we as a people are in so we can have a better life.

[Clay]

The first way we can make a difference is to realize that there is a problem in Christian circles. Not too long ago Brother Creflo Dollar took to the airwaves on Hot 107.9 fm a local Atlanta radio station and put on blast this issue of racial inequalities in the pulpits of America. Now many of us have our differing opinions of this man of God but I know him personally and he is calling for the body of Christ to take responsibility for the condition that we as a people are in so we can have a better life.

John 17:20-21 "I'm not praying only for them. I'm also praying for those who will believe in me through their message. (21) I pray that all of these people continue to have unity in the way that you, Father, are in me and I am in you. I pray that they may be united with us so that the world will believe that you have sent me.

If christians of different colors cannot be united what does that ultimately say about their message? and will there message be believed without unity?

[PeacefulBe]

most adventist pastors in North America are not preaching unity or reconciliation I don't think PB..... the issue as I see it will still be power sharing... I don't see leaders black or white willingly giving up power.... so dismantle and start with something completely different might be the solution.... think about the lies that have been told on both sides....

Think about what happens when too many black people join a white church..... you think people are really ready for unification?

I get the power thing. Dismantling the clunky system might be the answer, as long as the result wouldn't be separate small group churches with no communication or cooperation. That is where I think the denomination would suffer more than it is in this present mess.

In my local church, the Koreans met in our youth chapel to be able to have their services in their own language(even though many speak fluent English). They outgrew those accomodations and built their own church. Then, we opened the youth chapel to the Spanish church folk (many of whom are undocumented)so they could worship in their own language. They grew so large that they now have their church services Sabbath afternoon, after ours.

So far, the Fijians, Kenyans, and American "blacks" are meeting within our ethnically diverse congregation. "Their" numbers are fairly substantial and the only thing that is chasing "whites" away at this point is our Praise-style music worship that has resulted in quite a few more conservative members fleeing to other local churches. Is there a percentage that must be reached, a level that is "too many" and causes the reaction you refer to? I'm sure this has happened in some places/times but I sincerely doubt that it will happen in my church. But, then again, I didn't know about regional conferences until 2001...

When will we be ready for unification? Perhaps when we are so identified with Christ, that we will see the intrinsic value of each other.

[Clay]

When will we be ready for unification? Perhaps when we are so identified with Christ, that we will see the intrinsic value of each other.

did you read the snippet I posted a few comments back in The Memphis Miracle?

[PeacefulBe]

Dr. Graham is a good friend of mine. He is a good man, had some issues when he was president, but I appreciated his position as being difficult in many levels. We had a few talks about things in general and issues in particular. Grew up with his wife, also. great people they are!

Well, for now, we dont' hear much from our pulpit of substance so now is not a good time to comment, but historically the injustices are mentioned,a nd recognized as a part of racism that hsould not be a prt of our churches. There is also acknowledgement that sadly our church is truly not ready for the healing so badly needed in this area.

Di,
I know nothing of Dr. Graham's issues as president, only that I was tremendously blessed by his Perspective article. You are lucky to know these great folks!

did you read the snippet I posted a few comments back in The Memphis Miracle?

Clay,

Yes I did. That is the Spirit that will change this church. Right now we are like self-centered children in need of a good lesson, dividing ourselves from our blood siblings for the most ignorant of reasons. However, spoiled as we are, we are still the "true" church. Until we have our own "Memphis Miracle" though, we will continue to be a "true" but ineffective church.

Individually, the change is important, but corporately the miracle will only come when the "powers that be" lead as those did in Memphis.

[Clay]

True but ineffective... interesting... well we have been separated since the 1940s and in some places before that... so... why isnt that a concern for those who say they are ready for Jesus to come? While leadership can ask for it, do you think the average member in the pew is ready for a change? I mean there are still many white folks who don't like black people, and vice versa... yet they claim to love the Lord..... so how will that be overcome?

[HUGGINS130]

most adventist pastors in North America are not preaching unity or reconciliation I don't think PB..... the issue as I see it will still be power sharing...

true

I don't see leaders black or white willingly giving up power....

not in the Adventist Church, can't speak for others at this point...

so dismantle and start with something completely different might be the solution....

only to possibly end where we are at now...there is going to have to be a serious move on the people to truly live what Christ has deemed necessary to enter into the kingdom...

Think about what happens when too many black people join a white church..... you think people are really ready for unification?

notice how most white churches are getting black members as opposed to the other way around...We see the problem, when will it or can it be fixed?

[PeacefulBe]

True but ineffective... interesting... well we have been separated since the 1940s and in some places before that... so... why isnt that a concern for those who say they are ready for Jesus to come? While leadership can ask for it, do you think the average member in the pew is ready for a change? I mean there are still many white folks who don't like black people, and vice versa... yet they claim to love the Lord..... so how will that be overcome?

Clay,

I am curious about how the racial separation plays in different parts of the country. Here in the western part of Northern California, people of color who lived in the community were welcomed in, for the most part. We did have a small separate Italian congregation for awhile but I grew up seeing blacks of various socio-economic standings being welcomed into membership of our main congregation and knew it had been that way at least from the mid-1940s when my grandparents moved to the area.

Our church school had a greater number of black students than the public schools I attended, even into high school times. I never felt local racial tension in either school until I went to PUC. There, I was sternly talked to for fellowshipping with black students by pastoral leadership who were afraid I would start dating out of my race. A sad wake-up call for a young idealist. While I was never romantically involved with the black students that I spent time with, I didn't alter the amount of fellowshipping we did in order to please those pastors.

I do know that one of my friends was from Pine Forge, PA and said PUC was a fairly comfortable place racially. I spent a weekend with her at Pine Forge Academy in 1970 on my way overseas. A gorgeous place! New York and PA were my first out-of-California experience and the first time I had ever laid eyes on lightening bugs!

In answer to "so how will that be overcome" perhaps you missed my previous post where I spoke to your power thing post.

When will we be ready for unification? Perhaps when we are so identified with Christ, that we will see the intrinsic value of each other.

truenot in the Adventist Church, can't speak for others at this point...only to possibly end where we are at now...there is going to have to be a serious move on the people to truly live what Christ has deemed necessary to enter into the kingdom...
notice how most white churches are getting black members as opposed to the other way around...We see the problem, when will it or can it be fixed?

Huggins,

Doing this is the big challenge. Once we get that right, the rest just may fall into place. Hope so, anyway.

Just curious, do you view it as a bad thing that white churches are getting black members? When you say "opposed to the other way around" do you mean black churches not getting white members?

[HUGGINS130]

Huggins,

Just curious, do you view it as a bad thing that white churches are getting black members? When you say "opposed to the other way around" do you mean black churches not getting white members?

no it's not a bad thing, I just believe blacks are more comfortable attending the white churches than the other way around. It may be a thing about worship styles, but there has to be something that can unite us as a people other than music...

[HUGGINS130]

Now that we have established the color line in the church, can we honestly admit that it is racism that is keeping Christianity as a failure, not Christ nor God, but those who call themselves Christians, and what will ever be done to separate the false from the real, since we are admonished to never separate the wheat from the tares?

Thoughts anyone!

This post has been edited by HUGGINS130: Apr 11 2007, 09:25 AM