The Color Line.... In The Church?, how are we divided? Options

[HUGGINS130]

Soul Espresso said:

And the other example is almost petty--I only mention it because I've seen it so many times, even by friends, that I'm pretty sure it isn't my imagination. Say your at a church gathering. And it's big--not a lot of parking, or you have to drive to parking. If you have pedestrians in the road this is what I've seen happen. If the pedestrians are white, they'll get out of the way. Black pedestrians will look and see what the color of the driver is, and if the driver is not black, they'll move as slow as they can.

I know I'm being petty beyond limit, and I understand why black pedestrians take their time getting out of the way of a white driver. It may not be racism, but it is discourtesy on a racial basis. And it reveals a certain attitude.

Well if you are at a church, I would hope your mind is so focused on Christ, that you will not have to assume the worse...This is where both blacks and whites are failing!!!Still comparing what each are doing while we are to be in Spirit and in Truth!!!

This post has been edited by HUGGINS130: Apr 13 2007, 03:18 AM

[SoulEspresso]

Well if you are at a church, I would hope your mind is so focused on Christ, that you will not have to assume the worse...This is where both blacks and whites are failing!!!Still comparing what each are doing while we are to be in Spirit and in Truth!!!

Well, it doesn't matter whether I'm at church or not, my mind ought to 100% focused on Christ. I'm still working on a definiton of discipleship, but it ought to include being "with Christ" in every aspect and moment of life, whether that's at church or at the movies or taking out the trash.

I only mention church because the last time I was able to take notice of this was at the campus of one of our colleges (not Oakwood btw). I've seen it in plenty of secular settings.

I understand where the impulse to discourtesy comes from, and frankly it doesn't bother me. It just makes me sad. This kind of thing makes it harder for whites to take steps to reconcile--we know about the hostility on the other side even though a lot of blacks would deny their own racism.

And I only mention the parking lot stuff here because so far I'm the only one to own up to my own racism. And I only say that because, if we're going to move forward together, problematic attitudes on all sides have to "owned" by those who hold them. I have zero idea if anyone on this forum on either side of the color line has ever done this parking lot trick because I've only met one person on BSDA in the real world.

It doesn't have to be this way. I was with another friend in another state in other settings (a mall), and we were getting a lot of scrutiny from security in a way I'd never experienced before (being white). I could not believe how courteous my friend was, despite the crappy attitude on the part of mall employees--that's the kind of thing that will change white attitudes. (Obviously I was/am his friend, I'm talking about the mall people.)

Huggins, you're right--if we were all focused on Christ like we ought to be, racism would dissolve overnight. But that doesn't mean not bringing up the issue of race--not everyone in the church or the world is willing to focus on Him.

So I guess we can come down to this question to be answered before we move on. Does this thread intend to discuss racism or does it intend to discuss *white* racism only?

... well? I mean, if I overstepped some boundary, I'm willing to accept that.

Based on where we are in the overall sweep of history, it's whites that bear the burden of overcoming their own racism--repenting, in other words--and it's blacks that have to forgive. In a (more) perfect world, whites would repent without any guarantee of forgiveness, and blacks would forgive without any guarantee of white repentance. That's not the world we live in, though.

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Apr 13 2007, 06:38 AM

[Denny]

I wanted to work out the definitions so that we are all on the same page when we use the term.....

Having said that, I can say that the church is structural racist (because there is power to act on a prejudiced belief) though there are bigots within black adventism.... and lets be honest, while white adventists tend to leave if there are too many black adventist members in their church, some black adventists have vowed never to worship with a white adventist member...

Even tho such an attitude is wrong, definitely wrong some of our black brethern have a lot of healing to do before they can collectively forgive the other side would you not say this needs to be done first the healing of one's own soul?

Ok I believe best to simplify the definition for our discussion a racist is someone who harbors hatred, dislike, thinks acts like their superior and has no respect for someone of another race
P.S even tho we are all the same race - here is only one race on this planet - so the irony is a racist is hating their own self)

[SoulEspresso]

Even tho such an attitude is wrong, definitely wrong some of our black brethern have a lot of healing to do before they can collectively forgive the other side would you not say this needs to be done first the healing of one's own soul?

Healing is the greatest thing we can pray for. I'm not sure I agree on the chronology, because forgiveness is not a feeling, it's a commitment. But healing is the end we work for.

This is why whites ought to repent regardless of outcome, but that's not easy to do.

P.S even tho we are all the same race - here is only one race on this planet - so the irony is a racist is hating their own self)

That's EXACTLY what it comes down to.

[Denny]

"And I only mention the parking lot stuff here because so far I'm the only one to own up to my own racism. And I only say that because, if we're going to move forward together, problematic attitudes on all sides have to "owned" by those who hold them. I have zero idea if anyone on this forum on either side of the color line has ever done this parking lot trick because I've only met one person on BSDA in the real world."

Ok never heard of the parking thing but sorry your experience does not mean all black people who cross the road slow down if the driver is white, trust me if you go to the West Indies even the dog and cat give all drivers 'the look' no way in that heat they gonna hurry for no car..

I say that to say this those black people and I bet if you did a count its not all the black pedestrians you meet and even it is are they part of the 'Representatives of the Black Pedestrians society'? No. I bet you they are thinking why do all white drivers what to drive like they want to knock us down? You see too many of our racial impressions comes from assuming in stereotyped thinking.

Growing up we used to say white people don't wash cos the ones we met, mainly white working class smelt cos some of them did not wash in the mornings in the important places, in hindsight that thinking was biased, prejudiced, and based on ignorance of white working class habits cos in reality Ia m sure some wash in the morning and some do not but not all smell.

[SoulEspresso]

"And I only mention the parking lot stuff here because so far I'm the only one to own up to my own racism. And I only say that because, if we're going to move forward together, problematic attitudes on all sides have to "owned" by those who hold them. I have zero idea if anyone on this forum on either side of the color line has ever done this parking lot trick because I've only met one person on BSDA in the real world."

Ok never heard of the parking thing but sorry your experience does not mean all black people who cross the road slow down if the driver is white, trust me if you go to the West Indies even the dog and cat give all drivers 'the look' no way in that heat they gonna hurry for no car..

I say that to say this those black people and I bet if you did a count its not all the black pedestrians you meet and even it is are they part of the 'Representatives of the Black Pedestrians society'? No. I bet you they are thinking why do all white drivers what to drive like they want to knock us down? You see too many of our racial impressions comes from assuming in stereotyped thinking.

Growing up we used to say white people don't wash cos the ones we met, mainly white working class smelt cos some of them did not wash in the mornings in the important places, in hindsight that thinking was biased, prejudiced, and based on ignorance of white working class habits cos in reality Ia m sure some wash in the morning and some do not but not all smell.

Well, I want to run all pedestrians down ... my road rage is equal opportunity ... and as far as smelling goes, it's a good thing I'm alone with my computer ... ... but that has less to do with washing than ... well, never mind.

Come to think of it, the majority of the "slow pedestrians" stuff I observed was in the south. Even MORE understandable. You're probably right on the stereotyped thinking.

[awesumtenor]

And I only mention the parking lot stuff here because so far I'm the only one to own up to my own racism. And I only say that because, if we're going to move forward together, problematic attitudes on all sides have to "owned" by those who hold them. I have zero idea if anyone on this forum on either side of the color line has ever done this parking lot trick because I've only met one person on BSDA in the real world.

While I cannot recall having done this vis a vis the parking lot, I know I have given in to my flesh at times in the supermarket... in the south particularly, one comes across an expectation of deference where if a white person is trying to get past you in an aisle, he or she will stop and look at you expecting you to move... no "excuse me, may I pass through" no verbal acknowledgement whatsoever often, even if they come up from behind you and you don't see them coming... and there have been times when I have not moved until they said "excuse me"... is that racist? I don't know... is it the acting out of some resentment? Absolutely. Is it sin? Yeah... it is, IMO.

It doesn't have to be this way. I was with another friend in another state in other settings (a mall), and we were getting a lot of scrutiny from security in a way I'd never experienced before (being white). I could not believe how courteous my friend was, despite the crappy attitude on the part of mall employees--that's the kind of thing that will change white attitudes. (Obviously I was/am his friend, I'm talking about the mall people.)

Sometimes it takes seeing it with one's own eyes before it will be acknowledged; sometimes, to quote Morpheus in "The Matrix", fate, it seems, has a sense of humor... or at least a pointed sense of irony. Case in point... Not long after my wife and I were married, my parents came to Virginia where we were living to visit us and my older brother and his wife who lived over in Virginia Beach. They took us all out to dinner at Red Lobster and while we were waiting to be seated, a black man we didn't know entered with a white woman and it was obvious from their interaction that they were romantically involved. My mother and my sister-in-law both started in on how they couldn't stand to see black men with white women etc... and although I don't think that couple could hear them... they were saying some really ugly things... but then my younger brother began dating a red-haired, green eyed Irish beauty named Maura Kelly... who he has been married to for almost 8 years now... and which forced my mother to address her own bias in a way she had not before. As long as the idea of race relations and racism is a hypothetical, we call ourselves dealing with it but we really don't; only when it becomes real in a "Guess who's coming to dinner" sense do we have to do the soul searching that God requires of us to get us to the point where we truly believe "red and yellow, black and white, all are precious in His sight..."


In His service,
Mr. J

[Clay]

SE stated:

And I only mention the parking lot stuff here because so far I'm the only one to own up to my own racism. And I only say that because, if we're going to move forward together, problematic attitudes on all sides have to "owned" by those who hold them. I have zero idea if anyone on this forum on either side of the color line has ever done this parking lot trick because I've only met one person on BSDA in the real world.

SE are you wanting others to join you in the boat you are in? For the sake of this discussion it is probably safe to say that we all are prejudice to some degree and at times act out that prejudice thought... Does that make us racist? To me it does not necessarily mean that we are.... I see racism like this: if I am wiling to go the extra mile for someone who looks like me, and not move an inch for someone who does not look like me, then that could be racist....

In our church, if I seem to be more focused on the fact that a white preacher cannot "bring it" like some black preachers, then that might be racist... if my "culture" is more important to me, so that I have to attend a church to get "my praise on" as opposed to worshipping with the members in the church that is 2 blocks from my house, then that may be racist....

Now let's explore prejudice ideas because I think that is where it begins.... what are our preferences? And to what extent will we go to make sure our preferences are maintained?

[watchbird]

Even tho such an attitude is wrong, definitely wrong some of our black brethern have a lot of healing to do before they can collectively forgive the other side would you not say this needs to be done first the healing of one's own soul?

Yes, Denny.... this is what I am saying. The attitudes that cause collective problems we label racism are individual.... and they can only be handled individually and personally... and it has to be from desires within each individual. Things of this kind cannot be legislated from the top down... or from the group to the individual. To do so would only be one more form of a misuse of power.

In a very real sense there is no such thing as "collectively forgive".... forgiveness is a God-given ability to look at a person... a guilty person.... in a different light from our natural inclinations to "an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth"... and even "repay him double".

Which brings up the question ... or IMO SHOULD bring up the question.... of what is forgiveness.... for most of us have been raised with errant concepts of what forgiving really means.... and there are a lot of things that we all too often consider to be forgiveness which are not at all.

Ok I believe best to simplify the definition for our discussion a racist is someone who harbors hatred, dislike, thinks acts like their superior and has no respect for someone of another race
P.S even tho we are all the same race - here is only one race on this planet - so the irony is a racist is hating their own self)

I think this is a good starting place. I'd like to push it further into even more detail. I think that someone is a racist who in anyway fosters the attitudes and self-images which are at the bottom of racism.... whether or not the interaction is between two of the same race or of different ones.

Example.... I think of the video that was posted somewhere on BSDA that showed the reaction of black children when asked to choose between two dolls.... one white and one black. What was most shocking IMO was the one who, when pushed to ask which doll looked like them, chose the black doll... but did so with averted eyes and pushed it away from herself rather than pulling it twoards herself. What this said to me was that those who either taught those children to devalue their own color... or from whom those children caught those attitudes... were racist.... whether those teachers or significant others were black or white.

Just as I think the black teacher was racist who admitted to not trusting his black college students with the same levels of responsibility as white teachers would entrust white students on the same education level. And the thing that REALLY got my attention was the attitude of the specific student (who was present during the discussion).... an attitude of total comfort and acceptance of those comments... (which I considered to be highly insulting to him).... yet it was plain to see that he had not only internalized, but accepted, this attitude as his own self-image.... though by any objective measurement he was an outstandingly gifted and responsible individual.

Now... to balance that out.... I have seen the same kind of denigration of a white student by a white teacher.... where there was no suggestion of race being an issue.... but IMO, the stunting or damaging of the developing self-image by overt or implied .... or even inappropriate jesting.... has at its base the same abusive elements that foster and feed racism.... a lack of respect for other individuals...

I'm sure these abuses are much more noticeable when they cross color lines.... but for that very reason I think it is important that we recognize the root of the plant as well as the fruit.

[awesumtenor]

Well, I want to run all pedestrians down ... my road rage is equal opportunity ...

You sure we aren't related? Because I am quick to be all out the window telling pedestrians to get out of my way if they don't want to start a new career as a hood ornament...

Mrs. J could regale you with some stories of my road rage... sanitized versions of course... I realized I might need prayer in that regard when my children started playing punchbuggy with my penchant for saying about other drivers "it's official; you're an idiot" as we rode in the car...

I can neither confirm nor deny the presence or absence of expletives in those statements...



In His service,
Mr. J

This post has been edited by awesumtenor: Apr 13 2007, 08:19 AM

[PeacefulBe]

Wow, there is a lot to digest here.

WB, you've put a lot of thought and study into this. Any thoughts on solutions?

Yes, change in attitude must be done on a personal and individual basis, but to change the SDA corporate attitude we need a "Memphis Miracle". If the GC set up is condoning or reinforcing a racist attitude, it stunts the church and encourages the membership away from that change in attitude. It perpetuates the breach between us.

SE, it's good to see you keeping it honest. I just may not report you to Dr. Diehl for the jerky thing! (I'm a CHIPPER, too) I understand the reasoning behind your statement of blending the races as a means to rid the country of racism. They tried that in Australia some years back and it just didn't work. Of course only one group participated willingly in the endeavor and perhaps that is why it failed. Then, to complicate things further, how would you get the plan accepted by the skinheads and their pea, no, lentil-brained ilk? No, I think it's better just to let the intermarriage plan evolve naturally like it did for Mr. J's brother. I believe it is more effective that way.

[pmorris68]

I rarely get into these conversations with folks. But this past weekend, we had personal ministries day. The elder in our church (Bless his heart) show the last day events video series by Doug Bachelor. The animation was spectatcular. But there was NOT ONE BLACK FACE IN THE ENTIRE VIDEO!!

Jesus was white, and so was everyone else. Now I thought perhaps I was the only one who noticed. Well our conference President happen to be in the audience and after the video was over (he was there for our church business meeting) he commented that there was NO black people in the video. So clearly it just wasn't me who noticed. What in the world. Now I wonder if anyone else has called them on this.

Sad to say...Sometimes I wonder if things have changed.

[watchbird]

I rarely get into these conversations with folks. But this past weekend, we had personal ministries day. The elder in our church (Bless his heart) show the last day events video series by Doug Bachelor. The animation was spectatcular. But there was NOT ONE BLACK FACE IN THE ENTIRE VIDEO!!

Jesus was white, and so was everyone else. Now I thought perhaps I was the only one who noticed. Well our conference President happen to be in the audience and after the video was over (he was there for our church business meeting) he commented that there was NO black people in the video. So clearly it just wasn't me who noticed. What in the world. Now I wonder if anyone else has called them on this.

Sad to say...Sometimes I wonder if things have changed.

I think we can agree that things have not changed... OTOH, I do think that things are changing.... and one evidence of that is that even some whites are noticing ... which I doubt many have done in previous years.

In this light, I was interested to note the various colors ... both in the program participants as well as the audience... when I happened to tune into HOPE TV when it was broadcasting the Sabbath meetings at the time of Autumn Council from the "church in the round" at GC Headquarters. And one could, I suppose, say that someone had deliberately picked a large proportion of persons of color for the program... but since all of those so chosen were there because of very high positions in church administration, it still said something about a movement toward a better balance of the races than has here-to-fore existed in our church leadership. And this held true for the audience shots as well as the participants.

It is also encouraging to me that we at Collegedale have a black person as our head pastor. He is not the only person of color to pastor in a "white" conference church, but certainly it means that things must be changing for him to be so well accepted in this church at Southern University that when I moved here 30 years ago only had two black teachers on the whole college staff!

It is obviously way too slow... and the TV ministries of the church have not yet integated their staff and speakers.... but it is a move in the right direction... and even a snail pace in the right direction is better than no movement at all... or movement in the wrong direction.

Granted.... it would probably be harder for me to be so optimistic if I were black.... but I see so many other things to be pessimistic about... I hope you will allow me this bit of optimism....

[simplysaved]

But one of the reasons that Pastor at Collegedale is now Black is for Southern to have more of a diverse appeal...and increase enrollment with more People of Color. He may have been called for such a time as this, but the reality is Paula's post makes a good point: You are challenged to reach someone if they do not feel they can identify with what is presented.

In 2007, the 21st century, it is ridiculous (IHO) to market something like that to a predominately Black, Hispanic, or Asian church and expect them to see anything less than an all-white congregation trying to "minister" to people who probably have limited to no iregular interaction with people outside of their respective races. And at lease for the Hispanic and Asian population, markets are created not only for the language barrier but also for the appeal factor.

I think we can agree that things have not changed... OTOH, I do think that things are changing.... and one evidence of that is that even some whites are noticing ... which I doubt many have done in previous years.

In this light, I was interested to note the various colors ... both in the program participants as well as the audience... when I happened to tune into HOPE TV when it was broadcasting the Sabbath meetings at the time of Autumn Council from the "church in the round" at GC Headquarters. And one could, I suppose, say that someone had deliberately picked a large proportion of persons of color for the program... but since all of those so chosen were there because of very high positions in church administration, it still said something about a movement toward a better balance of the races than has here-to-fore existed in our church leadership. And this held true for the audience shots as well as the participants.

It is also encouraging to me that we at Collegedale have a black person as our head pastor. He is not the only person of color to pastor in a "white" conference church, but certainly it means that things must be changing for him to be so well accepted in this church at Southern University that when I moved here 30 years ago only had two black teachers on the whole college staff!

It is obviously way too slow... and the TV ministries of the church have not yet integated their staff and speakers.... but it is a move in the right direction... and even a snail pace in the right direction is better than no movement at all... or movement in the wrong direction.

Granted.... it would probably be harder for me to be so optimistic if I were black.... but I see so many other things to be pessimistic about... I hope you will allow me this bit of optimism....

[watchbird]

But one of the reasons that Pastor at Collegedale is now Black is for Southern to have more of a diverse appeal...and increase enrollment with more People of Color. He may have been called for such a time as this, but the reality is Paula's post makes a good point: You are challenged to reach someone if they do not feel they can identify with what is presented.

Sorry... but this was NOT the reason he was called here. Whatever else this call was, it was NOT a "marketing ploy". I am not privy to all that went on behind the scenes. And I do not feel free to say all that I do know. But I will say this much. He was on the first "short list" selected for personal interviews by the search committee. He was not the first one interviewed. A series of circumstances left no doubt but what he was the right man to choose. And time... he has been here a full year now... has proven they were right. Collegedale church is ready to be led by a real leader no matter what his color... and John is a real leader.... and has been warmly received. Black enrollment at Collegedale has been up for some time now... as have the number of black teachers. Southern was already diverse... what we needed was to have a black presence in the pastoral staff. And we needed a strong leader of the kind that causes peole to want to follow where he leads. In John we got both in one person. And we are happy with having him.

As someone told me once when I was persuing an argument past the time when I had really already won it.... "Be a gracious winner". IOW don't be so focused on the many negatives that you cannot graciously acknowledge and even enjoy the "wins".... no matter how few and far between they are.

In 2007, the 21st century, it is ridiculous (IHO) to market something like that to a predominately Black, Hispanic, or Asian church and expect them to see anything less than an all-white congregation trying to "minister" to people who probably have limited to no iregular interaction with people outside of their respective races. And at lease for the Hispanic and Asian population, markets are created not only for the language barrier but also for the appeal factor.

On this we are fully agreed. Even without the moral imperatives for wiping out racism.... just merely from a cold, hard, business-like view of "marketing" it makes no sense to not take into consideration the demographics of one's target "market". The word for that is not merely "racism"... it's "STUPID".... "Where's that sign, Clay?"

This post has been edited by watchbird: Apr 16 2007, 09:19 AM