Letters Between Linda And The Thompsonville Church, J.L. re: counseling, censure & attempts at reconciliation Options

[awesumtenor]

Just so you know, I took Nursing , including psychiatric Nursing, and even had ongoing education as required. and have worked in mental health jobs, also, so I'm not a total idiot about this subject, although not a Doctor or expert either. . But Frankly I am bored with all your arguments, the subject of what can be called counselling, and what cannot, and therefore doesn't count as official counseling for Linda, doesn't interest me.

OK... I'll concede you aren't a *total* idiot on this subject... however you are, as it were, clueless... despite your purported education and background... your statements sound like they come from the age when frontal lobotomies were deemed therapeutic and forced sterilization of mental patients and the retarded was considered state of the art.

Note to Cindy... they don't do those things any more... and you have a *lot* of catching up to do before you can discourse on this subject knowledgeably in any wise...

In His service,
Mr. J

[mozart]

Personally I am not interested in arguing withhow you define things or pontificate about that or others. You are entitled to your opinion. I just wish you'd state that when you write judgments about individuals you disagree with, instead of acting like everything out of your mouth is absolute truth, and if people disagree that is because they as you say "lack understanding".
We need a hot air balloon smiley around here.

al, you do exactly what you are accusing here only you rarely do it in as kind of a way. let's try to keep this intelligent ok? even though you say things that others think are untrue or half truths, at least you seem to be making an effort to be more civil about it. let's not go backwards.

Talk about misguided zeal... Cindy do you really expect that your n-th hand hearsay account should carry more weight than the account of a principal involved in the situation?

You may say you know what you've been told by others.. but you were not there. Observer was there and involved... yet you think we should believe you over him?

If you do, that borders on the delusional...

In His service,
Mr. J

please.............let's try not to attack one another with insults ok? we have a window of opportunity here for peaceful discussion. let's not waste that.

[PeacefulBe]

There is already a separate thread where all can discuss counseling to your hearts content, as this subject has already been discussed off topic in another thread, and that thread was created.

I'm just going to say.

There is a big difference between pastoral Counseling, and worldly Counseling.

Pastors are concerned with leading their flock and pointing out error and sin and need to show the right way to go, that is their responsibility as a Pastor.

The world is concerned with the Id and the ego and the super Ego, and "How do you feel" "what do you want"

God's says that way is wrong. It's all about Self.

Cindy,
Do you have a scripture you can quote that supports your position?

Each individual "Self" was important enough in our Savior's eyes that He chose to die to pay sin's price for each one. And then we have Matthew 22:39 that says we are to "love your neighbor as yourself".

Just some thoughts that your statements brought to mind.

All I'm saying is, if you want a psycho analysis go to a shrink. You want spiritual guidence and counsel go to your pastor.

It's not rocket science.

Did you take your son to a doctor to treat his Bi-polar condition? Did you take him to your pastor? Cindy, Christians are not the only human beings that God blesses with talents to be used to help His children.

Sure, there are some branches of psychology that might be too "out there" for Christian consumption, but utilizing a wise, well-trained counselor to help with relationship or emotional needs is not any different than going to a medical doctor who doesn't happen to be an Adventist.

[PeacefulBe]

Di,

Aletheia said:

But there something a little wrong with the little girl marching out of step in the band and saying did you see how good I did and how everyone was out of step but me? They all tried to tell me I was wrong but I knew better, so I just kept on going. Don't you agree it's mean for them to keep picking on me?

If I am understanding the point of her story correctly, she sees that a co-founder of 3abn is that little boy/girl marching out of step with the rest of the band but thinking he/she is the only one doing it right and, further, is surrounded with people who are supporting his/her delusion. Interesting metaphor.

[awesumtenor]

al, you do exactly what you are accusing here only you rarely do it in as kind of a way. let's try to keep this intelligent ok? even though you say things that others think are untrue or half truths, at least you seem to be making an effort to be more civil about it. let's not go backwards.
please.............let's try not to attack one another with insults ok? we have a window of opportunity here for peaceful discussion. let's not waste that.

That was not an insult... it was an observation. In this society, hearsay never trumps an eyewitness on any level in any forum or venue.

It's just not done.

Cindy has nothing but hearsay. She has personally witnessed nothing that she is talking about. All of the details, questions and responses she offers are being fed to her by others, many of whom also did not witness any of these things but are merely spouting what was fed to them... not unlike tying a piece of lard on a long string and throwing it among a gaggle of geese...

Observer and Johann, OTOH, are principals in this affair. They are involved and have seen, said and heard things that Cindy has only gained knowledge of second or third hand or worse...

Yet she persists in believing that what she says should be found more credible than what they and others who have been involved say.

If you have a better word than 'delusion' for that I welcome it.

In His service,
Mr. J

This post has been edited by awesumtenor: Apr 11 2007, 04:26 PM

[Observer]

I do have a problem with this statement of yours:
"However, his published statements on various issues clearly reveal that he fails to understand aspects of the issues." You forgot to say "In my opinion" and you forgot to give any evidence. All that means is that Gregory Matthews disagrees with Pastor Lomacang, and Pastor lomacang has a different understanding then Gregory Matthews. -- and that may mean you lack understanding Gregory...

I also didn't like it when you said he had no ethics, that was rude and also unproven.

I don't know everything about his training.

I do know about "callings" and that the qualifications for a Pasor (bishop) are in the bible, and the conference has him listed as a Pastor, if they have no problem why should you?

He has 16 plus years of counseling experience...

But beyond that, and probably off topic, who ordained the Apostle Paul, gregory?

O. K. Aletheia:

For the purpose of this discussion, let us accept at face value your claim that Elder John L. is a counselor, and as evidenced by his 16+ years of counseling experience does do counseling.

Do your understand the legal liability that you have potentially placed the IL Conference in, or rather the legal liability that Elder L. has potentially placed the IL Conference?

Do you understand the ramifications of the Odenthal case which comes form MN?

Of course, I understand that a case heard by the MN Supreme Court does not set a precedent in IL. However, as one who has studied psychiatric nursing, and understands counseling, I am certain that you understand the Tarasoff case. You likely know that the Terasoff case became a model that was adapted by probably all of the 50 states of the United States.

Based upon your knowledge of the history of the Tarasoff case, it is unlikely that you would seriously attempt to tell us that the Odenthal case has no revelance for someone in IL.

NOTE: I am very briefly making a statement about a very complex case that went back and forth between the District and Appealate courts until the MN Supreme Court rendered a decison that resulted in the parties reaching a settlement without a trial by the District Court.

In brief the MN Supreme court ruled that the MN Conference of SDA could be sued, and held liable for a failure to supervise the counseling activities of a SDA pastor whom the Court had determined held himself out to be a counselor, and did represent himself as giving marital counseling to the Odenthals. In that ruling the Court ruled that the MN Conference did not have the protection of the First Ammendment to the Constitution due to the fact that the pastor involved represented himself as providing the Odenthals with marital counseling.


If what I expect happens actually takes place, Aletheia and others will commant adversely on me and/ or my post. If they finally respond to my question, they will begin to back track in their claims in regard to Elder L. being either a counselor, or in providing counseling for 16+ years.

Let us seewhat they do.

Citation: Tarasoff v. Regents of the University of California (1976)

See: http://www.atoday.com/220.0.html for a longer discussion of the Odenthal case which I wrote for ADVENTIST TODAY.

This post has been edited by Observer: Apr 11 2007, 07:29 PM

[Panama_Pete]

The published comments that I have read about John L. suggest to me that he did not give Linda any kind of professional counseling. They suggest to me that he is neither trained nor experienced in such.

However, if you only meant to tell us that John L. has devoted 16+ years of his life to telling people what to do, as I do not know the truth of that, I will simply accept it, and not argue with you.

http://www.pacificpressprofiles.com/bio.php?id=35

"John received an Associates Degree in Electronics before continuing his education at Oakwood College and Valencia College in Orlando, Florida. Though he is an ordained minister, he has received no formal training in that area."

[from-the-pew]

Let us seewhat they do.

[princessdi]

Where is that fainting smiley when I need it!!! You gots to be kiddin!!!! Electronics?!!!! So does this mean he really needs to be working with the computers at 3ABN?

Yeah I really want to see what they say about this one........Also, I need to see how well the ramifications of that case is comprehended.....

What are you watching, FTP?.....Have some popcorn? Wait I needs some serious fried meaty bits for this one! I got some veggie bits, too. Have some? Propel?

http://www.pacificpressprofiles.com/bio.php?id=35

"John received an Associates Degree in Electronics before continuing his education at Oakwood College and Valencia College in Orlando, Florida. [b]Though he is an ordained minister, he has received no formal training in that area."[/b]

[Clay]

Where is that fainting smiley when I need it!!! You gots to be kiddin!!!! Electronics?!!!! So does this mean he really needs to be working with the computers at 3ABN?

Yeah I really want to see what they say about this one........Also, I need to see how well the ramifications of that case is comprehended.....

What are you watching, FTP?.....Have some popcorn? Wait I needs some serious fried meaty bits for this one! I got some veggie bits, too. Have some? Propel?

when was he at Oakwood is what I want to know.....and what did he get one of those Certificates in Church Leadership that they sometimes give to men who are older or are already preachers and then send them on their way?

[mozart]

Cindy,
Do you have a scripture you can quote that supports your position?

Each individual "Self" was important enough in our Savior's eyes that He chose to die to pay sin's price for each one. And then we have Matthew 22:39 that says we are to "love your neighbor as yourself".

Just some thoughts that your statements brought to mind.
Did you take your son to a doctor to treat his Bi-polar condition? Did you take him to your pastor? Cindy, Christians are not the only human beings that God blesses with talents to be used to help His children.

Sure, there are some branches of psychology that might be too "out there" for Christian consumption, but utilizing a wise, well-trained counselor to help with relationship or emotional needs is not any different than going to a medical doctor who doesn't happen to be an Adventist.

very well said my dear

[mozart]

That was not an insult... it was an observation. In this society, hearsay never trumps an eyewitness on any level in any forum or venue.

It's just not done.

Cindy has nothing but hearsay. She has personally witnessed nothing that she is talking about. All of the details, questions and responses she offers are being fed to her by others, many of whom also did not witness any of these things but are merely spouting what was fed to them... not unlike tying a piece of lard on a long string and throwing it among a gaggle of geese...

Observer and Johann, OTOH, are principals in this affair. They are involved and have seen, said and heard things that Cindy has only gained knowledge of second or third hand or worse...

Yet she persists in believing that what she says should be found more credible than what they and others who have been involved say.

If you have a better word than 'delusion' for that I welcome it.

In His service,
Mr. J

awesum,
in just the comments today, you have called her ignorant and an idiot as well as delusional. you ask: "If you have a better word than 'delusion' for that I welcome it." well, how about incorrect, uninformed, misinformed, wrong, misconceived, refusing to see the writing on the wall, blindly loyal, out of touch ....... you could have said, "your line of thinking is delusional" instead of making a frontal attack. if we are to stand in judgement of wrongdoing let's be sure we are not doing wrong ourselves. i don't agree with anything AL says and i've poked fun at her; told her to take a pepto, etc. and sometimes she makes me really angry and i've fussed at her for being so hateful. it's counterproductive to turn our "information and informing quest" into a bunch of insulting bickering. what does that say about our own character? i just want us to act like Christians even when we feel "righteous idignation". i'm sounding all "perfect" now and that's nauseating, but i just want us to get this resolved and i don't want other people to think we are just on here fighting and spreading gossip. that makes us no better than those we are trying to bring to justice. just a suggestion. don't go postal on me.

Where is that fainting smiley when I need it!!! You gots to be kiddin!!!! Electronics?!!!! So does this mean he really needs to be working with the computers at 3ABN?

Yeah I really want to see what they say about this one........Also, I need to see how well the ramifications of that case is comprehended.....

What are you watching, FTP?.....Have some popcorn? Wait I needs some serious fried meaty bits for this one! I got some veggie bits, too. Have some? Propel?

i be faintin' but i aint smilin

Observer, You took your smart pills today. WOW !

This post has been edited by mozart: Apr 11 2007, 08:00 PM

[Rosyroi]

Now that we are discussing JL qualification for 16 years of counseling, I have a question or three.
1. How long has John been in pastoral service?
2. How long has he sung with Heritage Singers?
3. Does this time singing with Heritage Singers count with the 16 years of counseling?
4. Did John attend Amazing Facts College of Evangelism?
5. If so how long did he attend?
6. Did any of the classes include learning how to counsel?

Just asking questions.
Rosyroi

---------------
editing for more questions.

Apparently John attended Oakwood college and another college(Valencia?).
What classes did he take while attending these colleges?
From his bio they don't appear to be ministerial/pastoral related.

If my questions are not appropriate I will apologize now to beat the rush.

Rosyroi

This post has been edited by Rosyroi: Apr 11 2007, 11:39 PM

[awesumtenor]

awesum,
in just the comments today, you have called her ignorant and an idiot as well as delusional. you ask: "If you have a better word than 'delusion' for that I welcome it." well, how about incorrect, uninformed, misinformed, wrong, misconceived, refusing to see the writing on the wall, blindly loyal, out of touch ....... you could have said, "your line of thinking is delusional" instead of making a frontal attack. if we are to stand in judgement of wrongdoing let's be sure we are not doing wrong ourselves. i don't agree with anything AL says and i've poked fun at her; told her to take a pepto, etc. and sometimes she makes me really angry and i've fussed at her for being so hateful. it's counterproductive to turn our "information and informing quest" into a bunch of insulting bickering. what does that say about our own character? i just want us to act like Christians even when we feel "righteous idignation". i'm sounding all "perfect" now and that's nauseating, but i just want us to get this resolved and i don't want other people to think we are just on here fighting and spreading gossip. that makes us no better than those we are trying to bring to justice. just a suggestion. don't go postal on me.
i be faintin' but i aint smilin

Your objection is noted for the record.

In His service,
Mr. J

[inga]

http://www.pacificpressprofiles.com/bio.php?id=35

"John received an Associates Degree in Electronics before continuing his education at Oakwood College and Valencia College in Orlando, Florida. Though he is an ordained minister, he has received no formal training in that area."

Of course, that explains a lot.

However, it does not excuse him calling himself a counselor and not having the ethical sense to see that even if he were a counselor, he had a conflict of interest in the Danny/Linda conflict. He is not "evil," as Aletheia likes to to say we are suggesting. However, he does not have the sensibilities of a good pastor -- and not even the basic ethical standards of the world. (A Christian pastor should have higher standards, not lower ones.)

What he wrote to Linda re church discipline (using discipline to direct her to a church where she could find healing) is just plain nonsense and inexcusable coming from anyone sitting on a church board, let alone a pastor. He really should go back to school. But would training give him the sensibility of a good pastor?

Please note, Aletheia, that we are not basing our opinion of JL's involvement on anything Linda said, but on what he wrote and you shared.