Lawsuits Filed Options

[Fran]

[Wow, what an interesting thread. Mystery-Man, you may well be right in saying that AF and 3ABN exist to keep the laypeople in their place. I do not believe that the Adventist church (structure, administrators) wants its members engaged in serious Bible study, either, for the same reasons--they prefer the status quo in doctrine as well as in practice.

Having non-employees "do the work" takes it out of their control. The upside of that is that it keeps complete crackpots from spreading their own version of "the message." (And the reason we get crackpots is because we make Adventists by appealing to their arrogance--"Be the remnant! Be special! Be better *cough* I mean more true to the Bible than other Christians!")

Rosyroi, the Share Him initiative by the Folkenbergs you mentioned does have one very good thing going for it--it's non-employees giving the message. For that reason we're doing it in our church. There are two major problems with it, though:

One, it's doctrinal monoculture (i.e. cultivating only one way of looking at our theology). It takes the prophetic scenario and hammers it in, especially if the congregation gets into the habit of doing it every year as the boot camps want them to do. This is a problem because using unfulfilled prophecy to win converts is very dangerous. What we believe stands on firmer ground if we don't rely primarily on the most arcane and difficult passages of Scripture to build on.

Two, it comes from the same mindset, IMO, that created A-Facts and 3ABN. For Adventists in general and those organizations in particular, evangelism means just getting people across a line (or lines) of decision regarding doctrine and certain specific lifestyle issues. Biblical evangelism--discipleship, to use another church-word--seems to me more about getting people into a love relationship with God and teaching them to observe everything Jesus taught--much more involved and time-consuming, and something that cannot rely on canned lectures and slide-shows.

Mr. J, I'm wrestling with that question right now. It's about learning to be like Jesus and teaching others to do the same--the Great Commission is about "making disciples," which means we have to be disciples first. Turning that into concrete action is the challenge.

I got a totally different take on Mystery-man's post. I heard:

1.3ABN exists because of active Laymen and that the church was against them in their efforts.

2. Amazing Facts was founded by a Pastor and another Joined him in his efforts. Was Joe still a Seventh-day Adventist Church pastor while he ran Amazing Facts? I knew him well, and I can't remember. Monday I will find out. If he was a layman then somewhere along the line, it became a ministry under the umbrella of the church.

3. Point 3; The church is too busy managing institutions (Academies, Colleges, Universities, Hospitals.......) to do much about spreading the gospel.

4. Even Local SDA Churches do not want lay people to do evangelism even if they are using SDA approved materials.

5. I believe mystery man is prophesying that the church will have a downfall and divest the church of all institutions.

6. What will become of these "Institutions" Are we headed for One independent Ministry taking them all over? That way they can be controlled and run by laypeople like Garwin, Doug and Danny?

On the live broadcast of Doug and Danny's merger. Danny said something about Learning Institutions, but caught himself and said, "Well Amazing Facts already has a School of Evangelism."

Danny almost spilled the beans! Amazing Facts indeed has other plans.

If, as Mystery man says, "...this is just the beginning of the downfall...!", what is the rest of the downfall?

Will laymen take over the control of these "Institutions"?

This post hit me, and I wondered if he would care to share his thought again, but unpacked. I asked Mystery Man for clarification.

Everyone should now re-read mystery mans post below. We must always read between the lines to get the really obvious meaning I could be very wrong! Mystery Man; which take is correct. I ask because you made the post not me.

QUOTE(mystery- man @ Apr 26 2007, 09:45 PM)

It is my belief that neither AF or 3abn exist because the laymen are not doing their work. I believe to a large part they exist to make sure the average individual does not do the work of the Lord. Let me tell you a story of someone I knew that took the great commission seriously and decided to spend vacation time 6weeks to do evangelism in a dark county. There were no ethnic churches in the area so he sent a letter with a outline of the sermons to the white congregation in hopes that they would help out. He also sent a outline of the sermon and the sources he would be using as to eliminate the perception of being a offshoot. His main source was the amazing facts study lessons. For six straight weeks he preached and taught which resulted in 8 baptisms held in the area Seventh-day Adventist churches. He even tried mightily to found another church in the city he was at. In the end the church sent a pastor to tell the new members to stop giving bible studies and stop using the white material (which were the amazing fact material) to evangelize.

Many will probably find this hard to believe but "they" (I I took "they" to mean the SDA Leaders; Local, Conference, Union, NAD, GC leaders, and I have applied this definition of "THEY" to every "they" in this post.) do not want the nominal pew Adventist to start evangelizing. Actually," they" want you to simply be content with paying your tithe and not stirring up things.

The real truth preached with power will bring persecution which is not at all what "they" want.

"They" simply want to have a semblance of righteousness so "they" can die rich or happy and still go to heaven.

I know these words might seem harsh and judgmental but get on fire and believe me "they" will extinguish you quickly.

Our church is about survival not the coming of the lord Jesus.

It is about our "hospitals and our churches and our institutions and showing our palaces to the world" as it were.

But "this is just the beginning of the downfall" and it is needed before we can "be free from the slavery of institutionalism" and can finally be about our fathers business and the coming of the mighty one, Jesus.

[Fran]

Don't misunderstand my post. I agree it will take all of us to bring God's work to the finish line so Jesus can come!

However, what I see is a control battle/war coming on the horizon. Just who is going to control what. I pray that God will win and not man. This frightens me because I see the power coming from one man under the guise of ASI Ministries. This is not a Battle to be fought. God is unity, not power and control.

We need to be wise as serpents and gentle as doves.

Does anyone here believe that God would cause HIS church to Downfall? I don't. Our church is corrupt and so are some Independent Ministries. Where does this corruption begin? It is from wealthy lay people that give there millions/billions and never let go of the control. This is about those giving but actively protecting "Their Investments!"

This is not of God! This is God's work and His church. We should have the desire and action to share the gospel, but not at the expense of God's very church.

This battle is over money, pure and simple! Always follow the money! Let us Remember Ron Gladden?

Does the church need change? YES! These things can not be fixed from outside, but from inside!

Just my thoughts.




Remember that "Power Corrupts, and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely

[beartrap]

[/size]
[size=6]Remember that "Power Corrupts, and Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely

It is my opinion that anyone who would seek or accept absolute power is already absolutely corrupt.

[Fran]

It is my opinion that anyone who would seek or accept absolute power is already absolutely corrupt.

Agreed!

[Rosyroi]

Thank you folk for the very interesting viewpoints offered.


to everyone in BSDA

Rosyroi
@}---;---;-----

[runner4him]

MM,

Now you are starting to talk about the true reason, this whole shelton mess got started in the first place, i can say amen.

Erik
I know for myself that only happens when i truly see for brief seconds the the true depth of Jesus love for me, then i am compelled to share this with others. But I find that Satan will go to great lengths to try to put be back to sleep.

But Praise God that His compelling Love is Stronger then Satan sleeping pill.

Erik

Amen....His Love IS stronger....I for one do not want to go back to sitting or sleeping on the sidelines. Praise God for his love and mercy and for the privilege of being able to take part in the Gospel work. Let us share His message of love for this dying world and the dear souls who come our way.

I remember the time when evangelism by the local church was an exciting event...visiting the ones who came night after night. Now, I can take you to a place where you will find for the past 16 years there has been no evangelistic meetings and I mean NO evangelistic meetings except a couple of satelite broadcast series with no attendence to speak of. You might ask the local people, Why?? They will tell you it just does not work anymore....

Let the Holy Spirit move the people...send a reformation...let it begin with me...change my heart and fill me with a passion for soul winning!

[Pickle]

Regarding more members getting actively involved in evangelism, consider the following quote:

Instead of keeping the ministers at work for the churches that already know the truth, let the members of the churches say to these laborers: "Go work for souls that are perishing in darkness. We ourselves will carry forward the services of the church. We will keep up the meetings, and, by abiding in Christ, will maintain spiritual life. We will work for souls that are about us, and we will send our prayers and our gifts to sustain the laborers in more needy and destitute fields." (6T 30)

Freak your preacher out next Sabbath by telling him the above. Tell him it just doesn't seem right to use the sacred tithe to pay someone to do the work of the elders.

Conference Workers Called to New Fields.--As a
general rule, the conference laborers should go out from the churches into new fields, using their God-given ability to a purpose in seeking and saving the lost.--Letter, 1902. (Ev 382)

In Iowa there are many places to be worked. As a general rule, the laborers in the Iowa Conference should go out from the churches into new fields, using their God-given ability to a purpose in seeking and saving the lost. (1888 1762) (Different letter, written to the same conference in 1901)

She must have felt strongly to have written the same thing two years in a row. But times have changed. There are now less than half of the number of churches in Iowa were when she wrote the above, and so what she wrote is more than twice as true today.

[Johann]

Regarding more members getting actively involved in evangelism, consider the following quote:
Freak your preacher out next Sabbath by telling him the above. Tell him it just doesn't seem right to use the sacred tithe to pay someone to do the work of the elders.
She must have felt strongly to have written the same thing two years in a row. But times have changed. There are now less than half of the number of churches in Iowa were when she wrote the above, and so what she wrote is more than twice as true today.

I well remember when we were reading such messages when I was a young minister. I came to Europe from America then, and I recall how the European Brethren felt the American Adventists had completely left their trust in Ellen White by appointing pastors to local churches. Today Europe has followed the American evil example by tying the workers to pastoring the local churches in stead of winning souls in other areas and establishing new churches.

The other day I was talking to a minister originally from Souther Europe. I get the impression he feels wickedness has overtaken our ministries by advocating that souls can easily be won through television, which relieves us of giving the message to people face to face.

This post has been edited by Johann: Apr 29 2007, 07:41 AM

[Pickle]

So Johann, has Europe's copying the American departure from adhering to the biblical model endorsed by Ellen White, has Europe's copying the American departure resulted in greater growth in Europe or greater stagnation? Please share with us how soul winning is looking today as compared to how it looked back then before Europe copied America in this regard.

[mozart]

So Johann, has Europe's copying the American departure from adhering to the biblical model endorsed by Ellen White, has Europe's copying the American departure resulted in greater growth in Europe or greater stagnation? Please share with us how soul winning is looking today as compared to how it looked back then before Europe copied America in this regard.

I can tell you it does't seem to be happening in my part of America. No evangelism done around here. I've suggested bringing different people in to speak and the pastor isn't interested if it means he might have to do any work during or afterwards. i've talked about some of this in the topic "Our Local Church" - thread "what do you do with a lazy pastor". he preaches about once a month, he doesn't do baptisms or lesson studies and he says making housecalls is "invading people's privacy". he says people don't like it, so his plan is to let this group "connect" run the church, bring in a band and have a halleleuia party to get "outsiders" and "backsliders" to come in. So much for evangelism. We're trying to get rid of him but right now we're not getting very far.

Let the Holy Spirit move the people...send a reformation...let it begin with me...change my heart and fill me with a passion for soul winning!

R4H-Thank you so much for this post. Lord have mercy on us.

This post has been edited by mozart: Apr 29 2007, 09:06 AM

[watchbird]

I well remember when we were reading such messages when I was a young minister. I came to Europe from America then, and I recall how the European Brethren felt the American Adventists had completely left their trust in Ellen White by appointing pastors to local churches. Today Europe has followed the American evil example by tying the workers to pastoring the local churches in stead of winning souls in other areas and establishing new churches.

The other day I was talking to a minister originally from Souther Europe. I get the impression he feels wickedness has overtaken our ministries by advocating that souls can easily be won through television, which relieves us of giving the message to people face to face.

Let's not get so absorbed in looking for what is wrong with various parts of our church that we lose sight of the fact that clocks don't run backward... neither do they stay stopped from one generation to the next.

Context, context, context.

There are places in the world today where the only access to people is through Television, radio, I-Pod or Computer. From hi-rise apartments to slums... there are those who have access to these but where no evangelist can penetrate.

There are also places where there is no access to any of the media ... and ONLY a dedicated individual can contact other individuals.

There are churches where there are laypersons who are fully capable of leading churches.... there are others who could not survive without the full time attention of one or more pastors.

And when applying something Ellen White wrote in her day to today... what did the words mean then? Was an "evangelist" someone who spent one week in an area and then moved on leaving a "new infant church" on its own? Or was it one who was more like what we would today call a "church planter"... one who spends months or even years in one place until a congregation was fully established moving on?

And what was evangelism even in more recent times than this? Even I recall the days when an "evangelistic team" meant a group of pastors and their wives who moved into an area for a minimum of six weeks.... getting acquainted with the people of the area and tailoring their messages to the local needs... as well as visiting in their homes and in general building up the church which had invited them to the area.

Evangelism ... spreading the good news of the gospel... is NOT to be equated with just any old Joe Blow taking a canned Power Point program and giving it either privately or in group meetings. The person who does active doctrinal type evangelism needs to be well enough acquainted with what is being said in his presentation so he can answer questions that are not covered in the canned material. If he is not, then better he stick to BEING a witness... as contrasted with talking about the theory or doctrine.

But that's just my opinion....

[mozart]

evangelism can start at home or anywhere and if Joe Blow is "willing", i say go for it. the problem seems to be in being willing;"being a willing witness we are all meant to do a work, not write a check and leave it to others. that's what kind of veered this topic off a bit.
however since it's here, i think that is what a lot are saying. that we as the church congregation and officers are not taking our job of witnessing seriously.
i especially liked the "witnessing by proxy" statement someone made on here.
the way i feel about evangelism is: i firmly believe it is meant to bring people to the Lord not nessessarily to this "church". we have a Bible for that. other materials are nice and helpful, i enjoy them, but witnessing (evangelism by the laypeople) doesn't have to be an organised plan of attack. it should be a testimony, a Bible study. a loving jesture and a kind word.
remember what Jesus told the demoniac? he had no training or lesson studies other than his own experience.
we can blame the GC, or the pastors or whatever, but the real ineffectiveness stems within each and every one of us. i know i don't do nearly as much as i should. i buy cases of books and pass them out as i feel the Lord impresses me, i give witness to Our Lord when i feel He impresses me, but the problem is, He is probably impressing me a lot more often than i am listening. we are taking this more seriously in our home than we have been and plan to make some changes in what WE do in that area.

Let's not get so absorbed in looking for what is wrong with various parts of our church that we lose sight of the fact that clocks don't run backward... neither do they stay stopped from one generation to the next.

Context, context, context.

There are places in the world today where the only access to people is through Television, radio, I-Pod or Computer. From hi-rise apartments to slums... there are those who have access to these but where no evangelist can penetrate.

There are also places where there is no access to any of the media ... and ONLY a dedicated individual can contact other individuals.

There are churches where there are laypersons who are fully capable of leading churches.... there are others who could not survive without the full time attention of one or more pastors.

And when applying something Ellen White wrote in her day to today... what did the words mean then? Was an "evangelist" someone who spent one week in an area and then moved on leaving a "new infant church" on its own? Or was it one who was more like what we would today call a "church planter"... one who spends months or even years in one place until a congregation was fully established moving on?

And what was evangelism even in more recent times than this? Even I recall the days when an "evangelistic team" meant a group of pastors and their wives who moved into an area for a minimum of six weeks.... getting acquainted with the people of the area and tailoring their messages to the local needs... as well as visiting in their homes and in general building up the church which had invited them to the area.

Evangelism ... spreading the good news of the gospel... is NOT to be equated with just any old Joe Blow taking a canned Power Point program and giving it either privately or in group meetings. The person who does active doctrinal type evangelism needs to be well enough acquainted with what is being said in his presentation so he can answer questions that are not covered in the canned material. If he is not, then better he stick to BEING a witness... as contrasted with talking about the theory or doctrine.

But that's just my opinion....

This post has been edited by mozart: Apr 29 2007, 10:00 AM

[SoulEspresso]

Freak your preacher out next Sabbath by telling him the above. Tell him it just doesn't seem right to use the sacred tithe to pay someone to do the work of the elders.

Well, then, maybe the church should appoint elders who are more than just platform monkeys and actually want to do the work!

Bottom line, most Adventist members don't feel it's their responsibility. When you try to get them to think that way, it's like ... I don't know ... trying to do a cornea transplant. They need to see with new eyes how it worked in the time of the NT and the early Adventist church.

I have three churches. The geographic area in which my members live is bigger than some states. The congregation which is most inclined to take care of itself also has elders who are so occupied with other church and personal work that any kind of organized effort to do full care of the church becomes one more "church burden." Thank God for a couple of families who have taken on the visitation issue.

Actually, I don't agree with EGW 100% on this. I agree in the sense that the pastor ought to do and train for evangelism, but laypeople have way more credibility these days, particularly among the unchurched. Culture and context change.

Then you have the conference breathing down your neck, wasting your time with things that don't fit your context instead of empowering your churches to make disciples in the way best suited to their communities.

I can't tell you how badly I want out of the ministry simply, largely so I can do small-group discipleship. But I'd be on my own because very few people out here realize the power of such work (it's picking up in some quarters).

She must have felt strongly to have written the same thing two years in a row. But times have changed. There are now less than half of the number of churches in Iowa were when she wrote the above, and so what she wrote is more than twice as true today.

Yeah. But then bringing her in is even more difficult because of the extremes in approaching her. On one hand (I'm speaking in broad generalities), you have the people who treat her like she was verbally inspired; on the other, you have people who don't even want to hear that she's a prophet. When someone tries to bring in some balance, they get hit by one or both sides. (By the way, thanks for Response to the Video. Quite helpful. I need to unpack my books and look at it again.)

I'm tired of this "blame the pastor" stuff. We have enough expectations to live up to without people telling us what most of us already know.

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Apr 29 2007, 10:15 AM

[Pickle]

Glad you liked the book.

Ellen White's counsel was pretty balanced on this topic, I think. For example, there are some statements about needing to have a family or two already in an area to provide some leadership after the church planter ministers were done. So we have some counsel, if I'm remembering correctly, that has clergy and laity working together.

Then there are statements that just flat out call for laity to move into unreached areas.

The areas in the world that are growing the fastest are those where the ministers can't run all the churches in their districts.

[Eirene]

Agreed!

Fran, I would like to personally thank you for the allegations you stated as fact over on CF. Very helpful....