Maybe, It Is More Smoke Then Fire? Options

[sdaguy]

Maybe we should keep in mind, what the GC came out with, about being “more smoke then fire.” We have heard the saying, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, ha; you have no spring chicken! But, maybe in this case of all what we have been hearing here about 3ABN, really there is no duck? Could it be all smoke, and just smoke? Personally, I have nothing to gain to defend 3ABN. I do not know of any person working at 3ABN or have a program on the air there or I don't even get it on my TV! I just believe in the U.S. Constitutional way, the “presumption of innocents!” It is DUE PROCESS I am defending. It seems that the GC or the NAD would be a proper forum to have fair hearings. For them to hear from witnesses involved from both sides, looking at documentations to back up either witnesses who are in the know, and of course all being Christ like all through this, then what GC or NAD concludes after much prayer for either the Church to support or not to support 3ABN, then we will know if there is fire, or if it is a duck. JM(Humble)O,

I know I am new here and have lots to learn, but I am a big supporter of the GC and NAD, true at times they are slow, but still I support them, and I am sure many others here do also.

[watchbird]

Maybe we should keep in mind, what the GC came out with, about being “more smoke then fire.” We have heard the saying, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, ha; you have no spring chicken! But, maybe in this case of all what we have been hearing here about 3ABN, really there is no duck? Could it be all smoke, and just smoke? Personally, I have nothing to gain to defend 3ABN. I do not know of any person working at 3ABN or have a program on the air there or I don't even get it on my TV! I just believe in the U.S. Constitutional way, the “presumption of innocents!” It is DUE PROCESS I am defending. It seems that the GC or the NAD would be a proper forum to have fair hearings. For them to hear from witnesses involved from both sides, looking at documentations to back up either witnesses who are in the know, and of course all being Christ like all through this, then what GC or NAD concludes after much prayer for either the Church to support or not to support 3ABN, then we will know if there is fire, or if it is a duck. JM(Humble)O,

I know I am new here and have lots to learn, but I am a big supporter of the GC and NAD, true at times they are slow, but still I support them, and I am sure many others here do also.

sdaguy. There is a lot of information on this site... and you sound as though you were beginning with a mind that is open to learning. You can learn much if you will just take your time, start with the pinned items at the top of the menu... work your way through all of them carefully.... and when they point to other threads, go there and read also. At some point in time, try to go back to the beginning and see how things have developed over the last three years.

You will find that many of us began by sharing heartily in the same thoughts as you express... especially when it comes to the role that GC and NAD might have played as soon as the first indications of problems began to be seen. But that is not the way that it happened.

As you read, it will be well for you to keep in mind that "truth is stranger than fiction". And it will also be helpful if you will keep in mind that even on this board, there is only a small fraction of the story that has been told.

You will find fire. You will find smoke. Proceed with caution.

[Artiste]

Maybe we should keep in mind, what the GC came out with, about being “more smoke then fire.” We have heard the saying, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, ha; you have no spring chicken! But, maybe in this case of all what we have been hearing here about 3ABN, really there is no duck? Could it be all smoke, and just smoke? Personally, I have nothing to gain to defend 3ABN. I do not know of any person working at 3ABN or have a program on the air there or I don't even get it on my TV! I just believe in the U.S. Constitutional way, the “presumption of innocents!” It is DUE PROCESS I am defending. It seems that the GC or the NAD would be a proper forum to have fair hearings. For them to hear from witnesses involved from both sides, looking at documentations to back up either witnesses who are in the know, and of course all being Christ like all through this, then what GC or NAD concludes after much prayer for either the Church to support or not to support 3ABN, then we will know if there is fire, or if it is a duck. JM(Humble)O,

I know I am new here and have lots to learn, but I am a big supporter of the GC and NAD, true at times they are slow, but still I support them, and I am sure many others here do also.

So glad you believe in the efficacy of DUE PROCESS. However I wonder that you have such confidence in your choice of a proper forum to decide this case, especially since you indicate that you have neither seen 3ABN on TV, nor had experience with persons connected with 3ABN as many of the rest of us on this forum have.

Many of us here do support the GC and NAD in theory and would be happy if they were to handle this matter expeditiously. That has not happened so far.

********************************************************************************

This post has been edited by Artiste: Jun 6 2007, 07:50 PM

[LaurenceD]

I just believe in the U.S. Constitutional way, the “presumption of innocents!” It is DUE PROCESS I am defending.

You're too late, guy. They needed you on board back when the accused one (LS) was determined guilty w/o a fair hearing.

[Snoopy]

You're too late, guy. They needed you on board back when the accused one (LS) was determined guilty w/o a fair hearing.

Agreed, Laurence, and nice to see you back! That being said...........sdaguy!

I came here with similar sentiments as yours....then I started to read....and read....and read...and read....well, you get the idea. When I first came here, I thought I'd gotten through most of the 3ABN postings...and then I discovered the little page buttons that go with each topic!! Turns out I'd only read the most recent pages, and many topics have many, manypages! Matter of fact, I'm still reading and trying to catch up!

Like Watchbird says, keep an open mind and be willing to dig through a lot of information to form your own opinions. You can still keep the faith, but you might find your perspective changing as you read.

~~Snoopy~~

[SoulEspresso]

Don't forget, www.save3abn.com is still running too.

[Noahswife]

Maybe we should keep in mind, what the GC came out with, about being “more smoke then fire.” We have heard the saying, if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, ha; you have no spring chicken! But, maybe in this case of all what we have been hearing here about 3ABN, really there is no duck? Could it be all smoke, and just smoke? Personally, I have nothing to gain to defend 3ABN. I do not know of any person working at 3ABN or have a program on the air there or I don't even get it on my TV! I just believe in the U.S. Constitutional way, the “presumption of innocents!” It is DUE PROCESS I am defending. It seems that the GC or the NAD would be a proper forum to have fair hearings. For them to hear from witnesses involved from both sides, looking at documentations to back up either witnesses who are in the know, and of course all being Christ like all through this, then what GC or NAD concludes after much prayer for either the Church to support or not to support 3ABN, then we will know if there is fire, or if it is a duck. JM(Humble)O,

I know I am new here and have lots to learn, but I am a big supporter of the GC and NAD, true at times they are slow, but still I support them, and I am sure many others here do also.

Today's Soap box.........

3abn is not the only not for profit that is raising eyebrows and associated with the SDA Church.....

Maybe DS should hire Florida Hospital's PR Department?

Pastor Orville Parchment

Revisiting statements of Pastor Orville Parchment the #2 ranking official of the 7th Day Adventist Church in North America.
Published: September 29, 2005

On July 1st of this year, Pastor Orville Parchment the 2nd ranking official of the 7th Day Adventist Church in North America apologized to the mother of young Rodney Vega, the son of a 7th Day Adventist Pastor who allegedly was turned away from 7th Day Adventist not-for-profit Florida Hospital simply because he was uninsured.
That day he prayed for young Rodney Vega to live a long life, and implied he would look into the matter.
On August 22 Pastor Parchment was quoted in the Washington Post as saying he did not have time to "dig deeply" into the charges.
Well when just one of the 7th Day Adventist not-for-profit health systems is raking in $715.3 MILLION in profits over a 4 year period you have to question why Pastor Parchment doesn't have time to "dig deeply" into charges of price gouging the uninsured.
Is his church benefiting from this un Christian like behavior?



Rodney Vega is in a better place today.

Description: The passing of young Rodney Vega.
Published: December 11, 2006
He is with God, having arrived in heaven yesterday (Sunday).
Full of life and love for friends, especially KB Forbes, family, especially his loving mother, and the people who worked to save his life, and make the end less painful.
Rodney deserved better than he got.
There is an Amber alert, there is Megans law, it's time for Rodneys law.
The son of a Seventh Day Pastor who was denied care by not-for-profit Florida Hospital which is owned and operated by Adventist Health System, a part of the worldwide organization of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, simply because he was uninsured.
I wish God could explain to us why these Seventh-day Adventists acted as coldly and cruelly as they did.
Was it just that they wanted to protect their bottom line.
Over the past five years (2000-2005) this hospital reported making a profit of over 376 MILLION DOLLARS!
Do you believe Thomas Werner, the Pres/CEO of Adventist Health System Sunbelt, a man who received a $1.4 million increase in total compensation in just one year (bringing his total to just over $2.5 million) will be anything but glad to have this PR nightmare start to fade?
Or what about Pastor Orville Parchment who in a PR move knelt and prayed with Rodney's mother, and vowed to investigate what happened.
That promise was made over a year and a half ago.
It's been more than a year since Pastor Orville told the Washington Post, he hadn't had time to look into the matter.
Do you think he'll absolve his guilt by remembering Rodney in prayers.
It should be noted that Rodney passed away in a for profit hospital that has covered all of his expenses.
On the website of not-for-profit Florida Hospital it reads To Our God
"We are responsible to communicate through caring service that God is a loving, gracious and protecting Father who places infinite value on every individual and is worthy of our admiration, affection and willing commitment."
It's a shame they didn't value young Rodney Vega.
Rodney we will not let you.

A personal note.
Description: Religious hospitals. Published: January 12, 2007
You can become numb when day after day you look at the profits being made by not-for-profit hospitals, and the excessive compensation being taken home by hospital executives, but I cannot get out of my mind the fact that when it comes to making health care more affordable, America's religious leaders are duplicitous.
Sister 'half my brain is a clinking cash register" Keehan is the embodiment of duplicity.

It's been almost 2 years since I spoke to Cardinal George about these issues and asked him to provide the moral leadership needed to end the abuses of the lay people who now run Catholic health care systems.

Last August I wrote, "It has now been 373 days since Pastor Orville Parchment, the 2nd highest ranking member of the 7th Day Adventist Church in North America knelt and prayed for young Rodney Vega whose mother alleged had been turned away for treatment by a not-for-profit 7th Day Adventist hospital simply because he was uninsured.

"What made this story particularly appalling was the fact that Rodney's father was a pastor in this church. After kneeling, he promised Rodney's mother to investigate her claims.

"It has now been 291 days since Pastor Orville Parchment told the Washington Post that he had not had the time to 'dig deeply' into the charges.'

You can add another approximately 150 days to both those numbers-and Rodney is in heaven, while Pastor Orville does nothing to prevent any more abuses.

These are not the only ones, but if religious institutions are not going to act compassionately, they shouldn't be called religious institutions, and if they are not-going to act like not-for-profits, it's time to TAX THEM!



nw
C"i"

This post has been edited by Noahswife: Jun 7 2007, 10:10 AM

[Clay]

sobering info NW... the kicker of course will be that if the move is made to tax these not for profit church run institutions the cry will be heard "they are persecuting us...." The fact is some stuff we might bring on ourselves... as my grandfather often said, "if you give a man a stick and he hits you in the head with it, don't cry..."

[Clay]

I have been so caught up in reporting the disgraceful conduct of this so called faith based system with regards to Rodney Vega, that I realized that I don't believe I have ever reported the profits for this entire system for 2005.
Well, according to the annual report, profits for year end 12/31/05 were $251,400,000!

Just over a quarter of a billion dollars.

Profits in the three previous years came in as follows.

2002--$170.6 MILLION.

2003--$203.1 MILLION.

2004--$236.2 MILLION.

Add them together, and you will see that in just four years, this not-for-profit hospital has made $861.3 MILLION in PROFITS!

You could see how they might have felt that caring for Rodney Vega the son of a Seventh-day Adventists Pastor, might have been too expensive.

They will tell you that "Today, our mission of extending the healing ministry of Christ depends not only on our commitment to Christian ideals but on our efforts to provide nothing less than extraordinary compassionate care."

http://wherethemoneygoes.com/newSearch.php...mit=Search+WTMG

[erik]

Today's Soap box.........

3abn is not the only not for profit that is raising eyebrows and associated with the SDA Church.....

Maybe DS should hire Florida Hospital's PR Department?

Pastor Orville Parchment

Revisiting statements of Pastor Orville Parchment the #2 ranking official of the 7th Day Adventist Church in North America.
Published: September 29, 2005

On July 1st of this year, Pastor Orville Parchment the 2nd ranking official of the 7th Day Adventist Church in North America apologized to the mother of young Rodney Vega, the son of a 7th Day Adventist Pastor who allegedly was turned away from 7th Day Adventist not-for-profit Florida Hospital simply because he was uninsured.
That day he prayed for young Rodney Vega to live a long life, and implied he would look into the matter.
On August 22 Pastor Parchment was quoted in the Washington Post as saying he did not have time to "dig deeply" into the charges.
Well when just one of the 7th Day Adventist not-for-profit health systems is raking in $715.3 MILLION in profits over a 4 year period you have to question why Pastor Parchment doesn't have time to "dig deeply" into charges of price gouging the uninsured.
Is his church benefiting from this un Christian like behavior?



Rodney Vega is in a better place today.

Description: The passing of young Rodney Vega.
Published: December 11, 2006
He is with God, having arrived in heaven yesterday (Sunday).
Full of life and love for friends, especially KB Forbes, family, especially his loving mother, and the people who worked to save his life, and make the end less painful.
Rodney deserved better than he got.
There is an Amber alert, there is Megans law, it's time for Rodneys law.
The son of a Seventh Day Pastor who was denied care by not-for-profit Florida Hospital which is owned and operated by Adventist Health System, a part of the worldwide organization of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, simply because he was uninsured.
I wish God could explain to us why these Seventh-day Adventists acted as coldly and cruelly as they did.
Was it just that they wanted to protect their bottom line.
Over the past five years (2000-2005) this hospital reported making a profit of over 376 MILLION DOLLARS!
Do you believe Thomas Werner, the Pres/CEO of Adventist Health System Sunbelt, a man who received a $1.4 million increase in total compensation in just one year (bringing his total to just over $2.5 million) will be anything but glad to have this PR nightmare start to fade?
Or what about Pastor Orville Parchment who in a PR move knelt and prayed with Rodney's mother, and vowed to investigate what happened.
That promise was made over a year and a half ago.
It's been more than a year since Pastor Orville told the Washington Post, he hadn't had time to look into the matter.
Do you think he'll absolve his guilt by remembering Rodney in prayers.
It should be noted that Rodney passed away in a for profit hospital that has covered all of his expenses.
On the website of not-for-profit Florida Hospital it reads To Our God
"We are responsible to communicate through caring service that God is a loving, gracious and protecting Father who places infinite value on every individual and is worthy of our admiration, affection and willing commitment."
It's a shame they didn't value young Rodney Vega.
Rodney we will not let you.

A personal note.
Description: Religious hospitals. Published: January 12, 2007
You can become numb when day after day you look at the profits being made by not-for-profit hospitals, and the excessive compensation being taken home by hospital executives, but I cannot get out of my mind the fact that when it comes to making health care more affordable, America's religious leaders are duplicitous.
Sister 'half my brain is a clinking cash register" Keehan is the embodiment of duplicity.

It's been almost 2 years since I spoke to Cardinal George about these issues and asked him to provide the moral leadership needed to end the abuses of the lay people who now run Catholic health care systems.

Last August I wrote, "It has now been 373 days since Pastor Orville Parchment, the 2nd highest ranking member of the 7th Day Adventist Church in North America knelt and prayed for young Rodney Vega whose mother alleged had been turned away for treatment by a not-for-profit 7th Day Adventist hospital simply because he was uninsured.

"What made this story particularly appalling was the fact that Rodney's father was a pastor in this church. After kneeling, he promised Rodney's mother to investigate her claims.

"It has now been 291 days since Pastor Orville Parchment told the Washington Post that he had not had the time to 'dig deeply' into the charges.'

You can add another approximately 150 days to both those numbers-and Rodney is in heaven, while Pastor Orville does nothing to prevent any more abuses.

These are not the only ones, but if religious institutions are not going to act compassionately, they shouldn't be called religious institutions, and if they are not-going to act like not-for-profits, it's time to TAX THEM!



nw
C"i"

Well Fellow Blacksdaer's i guess we can see clearly why the GC so unconcerned about the little sancadal over at 3abn, it is small time stuff.

PLEASE can someone tell how our health message got this warped, that we can have that much money being made and we still can help the unfortunate around us.

I am noticing the connection is that we are much more worried about building the SDA kingdom on earth then we are at building god's kingdom( which is the whole reason we even exist has a church.)
I pray that god sends his vomit out message to full fruit very soon so we can stop embrassing him.

Erik

[Clay]

Well Fellow Blacksdaer's i guess we can see clearly why the GC so unconcerned about the little sancadal over at 3abn, it is small time stuff.

PLEASE can someone tell how our health message got this warped, that we can have that much money being made and we still can help the unfortunate around us.

I am noticing the connection is that we are much more worried about building the SDA kingdom on earth then we are at building god's kingdom( which is the whole reason we even exist has a church.)
I pray that god sends his vomit out message to full fruit very soon so we can stop embrassing him.

Erik

as I said Erik in another thread... I was reading in a old book written late 60s... the author said this about sda's:

sda's are always preaching the kingdom to come, while in the meantime they appear to be trying to establish their kingdom here on earth...

I wonder what his observation would be now...

[PeacefulBe]

The exclusion of young Rodney Vega from treatment in our Florida SDA hospital for lack of insurance reminds me of another exclusion for an equally absurd reason from another of our SDA hospitals back in the first half of the 20th century.

From an article "The Beginning of Regional Conferences in the US III" dated Tuesday, September 5th, 2006:

"One of the impetuses for the petition was the tragic case of Lucy Byard. Byard was a light-skinned Black SDA from Brooklyn who was admitted to the SDA owned and operated Washington Sanitarium and hospital based on her appearance. When her true racial identity was discovered from her admittance forms, Byard was wheeled into a hallway without examination or treatment, while a place in another hospital was sought for her. She was eventually taken to Freedman’s Hospital where she died shortly after of pneumonia. While it is impossible to ascertain, it is often stated that her condition—at the very least—worsened due to the time spent in the drafty hallway of Washington Sanitarium." Full article can be read here.

While it was unconscionable for an SDA hospital to deny service, one question that was not adequately clarified in the articles about Rodney Vega is the timing. How did the denial of treatment on July 1, 2005 contribute to the young man's death on December 10, 2006?

[YogusBearus]

sda's are always preaching the kingdom to come, while in the meantime they appear to be trying to establish their kingdom here on earth...as I said Erik in another thread... I was reading in a old book written late 60s... the author said this about sda's: I wonder what his observation would be now...

Yes Clay, one might wonder that. It appears that there are now some rather material reasons to be involved in the "work." Reading about some of the compensation being paid the "workers" now is downright unbelievable.

Try searching "Adventist Health System" at http://wherethemoneygoes.com

-bear




This post has been edited by YogusBearus: Jun 7 2007, 01:01 PM

[Noahswife]

While it was unconscionable for an SDA hospital to deny service, one question that was not adequately clarified in the articles about Rodney Vega is the timing. How did the denial of treatment on July 1, 2005 contribute to the young man's death on December 10, 2006?

PB, I have not yet traced the entire Rodney Vega story but that is not what my post is about.

I personally resent how many in this country hijack issues in the name of their brand of Christianity. However, the spin here by the NAD is interesting to me and I can’t help but wonder what the ultimate follow up was? I am also angered by the salaries paid to the CEOs and others in our institutions when I know many older SDAs have been forced into early retirements to avoid the payment of benefits after years of “service” to this church. They were replaced with younger workers with minimal accrued benefits. An example of this was my own father who in his early 60s was a gardener at one of our renowned SDA medical centers who was always the first to be called in the middle of the night to plow the snow. I also personally know that one of those mentioned on this site hires illegals to do much of his home maintenance.

I also wonder how many of these CEOs are ASI members?

Just an inquiring mind and two more cents.

nw
C"i"

This post has been edited by Noahswife: Jun 7 2007, 12:04 PM

[Jnana15]

Thank you NW for this enlightening information. This just sickens me to my stomach! I have heard more stories like this over and over. I guess sometimes we "are" like Israel of the old testament. Then we start snotin' and cryin' to God for deliverance from the messes we create from following the examples of the world in being the tails and not the heads. JMHO

This scripture comes to mind:

"No man can serve tow masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon." Matt. 6:24 KJV