Letter From Gailon Joy Options

[fallible humanbe...]

SE,

Again this was an expansion of the discussion. Arguably I should have made this isse part of a separate posting. But here, let me try to frame it in context of our discussion. Do good reporters attempt to make accusations through asking questions? Or, do they try to present their "story" factually with clear identifiable sources and source material?

Time and again the save/not crowd have done just that, asking "questions" that in essence are accusations cloaked as questions. The idea is to begin open speculation with the intent to fill the thread with statements that may lead individuals to believe that which is not true. So, to provide an example I concocted one for you.

Does this type of approach represent responsible "journalism"? If it doesn't then this adds to the over all atmosphere of this "independent investigation" which continues to grow more questionable in its methods as time passes. If one is willing to rationalize a trusted confidence then what else are they willing to rationalize in order to "win?"

I will try and do better about keeping a post to one specific point at a time.

- FHB

Then there are the other issues I mentioned. For instance the process of asking questions as a means to make allegations. For instance, SE, what would your response and/or thoughts be if I posted something of this nature?

"Does anyone know if Dr. Arlid Abrahmsen, through another individual, offered free medical treatment to the spouse of a Board Member during the time that the Board was making decisions about Linda's place within the ministry?"

I am curious, would you find that acceptable or would the double standard of save/not come into play.

You'll have to unpack this, please, I'm not following ... and honestly, I'm not trying to be obtuse.

This post has been edited by fallible humanbeing: Aug 13 2007, 07:55 PM

[SoulEspresso]

FHB,

I apologize for being a little over-the-top in my last response. Will dial it back for this one.

The Internet is the big thing that has changed the equation these days. Yes, my organization issued credentials to me so that news sources knew I was legit. But I don't think anyone issued Matt Drudge credentials. I'm not calling that an analogy to save3abn, I only bring it up because newsgatherers are not limited to established media entities, and they have way more reach now because of the 'net.

As to their "attempts" to handle this behind the scenes, I am not perfectly clear on this, but wasn't Gailon writing his mass emails long before the save/not site. Robert, too, was posting his emails almost immediately after sending them. They took things public before establishing their site.

I'm not aware of these mass e-mails--"mass e-mails" is a nebulous term, because the recipients don't necessarily know how many people they've gone to. I would assume Joy & Pickle are Net-savvy enough to know to BCC to a large list, rather than list them all under "To" or "CC"; if they did BCC, no one would know how "mass" they were. Apparently neither you nor I know.

I'm merely a person who stands to watch a lot of people get hurt when this blows up further, so I post for their sake. I don't know if anyone else here was, but I know I never got a mass e-mail. (I suspect I'm not important enough, and frankly I'm fine with that.)

I knew about some kind of a problem a few weeks after Linda was sent away from 3ABN, but that was told me by someone who knew someone on the board; that someone I have in fact previously trusted with my life, so I had no reason to doubt their concern at the time (which in those days was still nebulous). Awhile later I came to blacksda on recommendation of a teacher, but didn't come back to stay until still another friend almost-directly-connected-with-3abn directed me to save3abn.com. When I came to the site, it was only at about 2000 hits. That was the first I knew how widespread the problems were alleged to be.

Some of the allegations have yet to be substantiated, but many have been documented, and when you have widespread allegations of the nature that have accumulated about Tommy, you have a real problem (especially if one is current with the literature on how often abuse victims come forward!) that needs further, real investigation by professionals.

Now, the "stonewalling" part, I am very curious as to why you feel someone can come along and demand to see things such as books, or evidence of infidelity? I, personally, detest the Exxon/Mobile Corporation, primarily for their arrogant handling of the Prince William Sound fiasco. Because I want to prove that they are out to scam the American (and world) population in an effort to extort money from all of us what right do I have to email the head honcho and demand to see their books, or read any and all memos in regards to the Prince William Sound incident?

Closer to home, what if tithe money is being used to pay a pastor I don't think is preaching the gospel according to the Bible, or how I read the Bible . . . do I have a right to go in and demand to see his tax returns? Should he subject himself to any and all questions I have? Should I continually inundate him with phone calls, and emails, and then send other people to do the same? Isn't that harassment?

But that's just the trouble. In both your examples, there are channels you can go to, authorities you can appeal to--the boards or stockholders' meetings, or the local church board and then the conference office. 3ABN has no such channel, as Gailon so clearly articulated in the message at the top of the board. ASI wouldn't step up, the board wouldn't step up--all of them were beholden to Danny, apparently. The church didn't want to get involved for whatever reason.

You can't run a ministry of 3ABN's reach without people who are willing to be responsible when problems arise.

And surely you might be able to see that unsubstantiated allegations of adultery against the ministry's VP constitute a serious problem! Not investigating multiple allegations of sexual abuse is a way bigger problem. Even if those allegations proved to be some kind of vast interstate conspiracy, not investigating them was a major failure on the part of the 3ABN board!

I suppose you and I will have to agree to disagree on this, but I take Bob and Gailon at their word when they say they did their best to handle this mess in a non-public manner. A couple of times Bob did ask questions analogous to what you posted, but (speaking for myself), I didn't draw any conclusions about those lines of thought until I saw more substance, and I think I'm fairly representative of an average BSDA reader. I don't like their methods sometimes, but for me, what makes their argument powerful is the firsthand documentation and the eyewitness accounts that they've posted.

Those of us posting on here have repeatedly asked for evidence exonerating 3ABN leaders, or even evidence that would prove Linda was guilty of something more than "spiritual adultery"--whatever that is. But FHB, evidence just hasn't been forthcoming--and if they were waiting for a lawsuit, that's a real shame because there were so many other opportunities to share it.

Blessings on you,
Soul

[Pickle]

As one who has been disappointed by some of the decisions Gailon and Bob have made such as the recent release of Nick Miller's email without proper notificaiton or permission and the attempted unmasking of FHB here on the 3abn Forum, I also agree that their motives and their goals have appeared honorable.

PB

You will recall that neither Gailon nor I attempted to unmask FHB on this forum. My post was intended to ask a very specific question, which FHB was kind enough to answer for me in another venue.

I have yet to talk to anyone who told me that they didn't have a clue what a certain someone else was talking about who thought I was making such an attempt.

You felt that I shouldn't have made that post, and that is fine. But to go beyond that and state as fact that I had a particular motive when I posted it is perhaps going too far, since man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

[awesumtenor]

The reason I mentioned the embezzlement conviction is because it was a way to evidence the double standard.

A better example is your condoning by your silence the racist and patently offensive things found at http://savegailon.blogspot.com/

BTJM.

In His service,
Mr. J

[PeacefulBe]

You will recall that neither Gailon nor I attempted to unmask FHB on this forum. My post was intended to ask a very specific question, which FHB was kind enough to answer for me in another venue.

I have yet to talk to anyone who told me that they didn't have a clue what a certain someone else was talking about who thought I was making such an attempt.

You felt that I shouldn't have made that post, and that is fine. But to go beyond that and state as fact that I had a particular motive when I posted it is perhaps going too far, since man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

Bob,

If you maintain that your motive was not to unmask FHB, I won't argue, for you are correct - I was only judging by outward appearances but the Lord looketh on the heart. After you made the post in question, though, several of my friends here informed me that they now knew who FHB was because of it. If I am not mistaken, it was not more than a few days before this was confirmed on save3abn.com. Of course, I don't know who was directly responsible for posting that particular statement over there. Both you and Gailon know that I voiced my opinion that it was unnecessary information to make public and I remain disappointed that the changes Gailon was willing to make to that statement were not made.

I will do my best in the future not to refer this instance on the 3abn forum with any assumption of your motive on my part.

PB

[Ozzie]

BTW, Appletree, if you don't double space your paragraphs, indenting will make them easier to read.

Thanks, Back to Topic

Yes. I couldn't read it in the format in which it was presented, so I just left it. Wouldn't matter how important the matter, if one can't read it, it's of no use!

[Artiste]

Bob,

If you maintain that your motive was not to unmask FHB, I won't argue, for you are correct - I was only judging by outward appearances but the Lord looketh on the heart. After you made the post in question, though, several of my friends here informed me that they now knew who FHB was because of it. If I am not mistaken, it was not more than a few days before this was confirmed on save3abn.com. Of course, I don't know who was directly responsible for posting that particular statement over there. Both you and Gailon know that I voiced my opinion that it was unnecessary information to make public and I remain disappointed that the changes Gailon was willing to make to that statement were not made.

I will do my best in the future not to refer this instance on the 3abn forum with any assumption of your motive on my part.

PB

What about other references? Will there be assumptions of motives in other instances?

***********************************************************

This post has been edited by Artiste: Aug 13 2007, 10:26 PM

[Snoopy]

BTW, Appletree, if you don't double space your paragraphs, indenting will make them easier to read.

Thanks, Back to Topic

Excellent point, beartrap! Thank you for bring that up.

Sure seems like I have seen that style of writing before....hhhmmm...where could it have been...???

[PeacefulBe]

What about other references? Will there be assumptions of motives in other instances?

***********************************************************

Artiste,

As I have attempted to do over this last year here on BSDA, I will continue to do my best to weigh all evidence and stick to drawing well-educated conclusions in other instances.

I have discovered, in some instances, that when the information offered by some is presented in either a less than forthright, convoluted or cryptic manner, it tends to make it difficult to ascertain the facts presented.

PB

[erik]

SE,

Again this was an expansion of the discussion. Arguably I should have made this isse part of a separate posting. But here, let me try to frame it in context of our discussion. Do good reporters attempt to make accusations through asking questions? Or, do they try to present their "story" factually with clear identifiable sources and source material?

Time and again the save/not crowd have done just that, asking "questions" that in essence are accusations cloaked as questions. The idea is to begin open speculation with the intent to fill the thread with statements that may lead individuals to believe that which is not true. So, to provide an example I concocted one for you.

Does this type of approach represent responsible "journalism"? If it doesn't then this adds to the over all atmosphere of this "independent investigation" which continues to grow more questionable in its methods as time passes. If one is willing to rationalize a trusted confidence then what else are they willing to rationalize in order to "win?"

I will try and do better about keeping a post to one specific point at a time.

- FHB

You'll have to unpack this, please, I'm not following ... and honestly, I'm not trying to be obtuse.

FHB.

Gailon and Bob, have both posted reports and options for me at least 99.9% of the time it is easy to see which is which.

The bottom line is this I know that thing that changed my mind about the 3abn mess was danny's and to a lesser degree Walt t. own words
not Bob or Gailon words.

The truth is that Danny wanted out of his marriage with Linda for what ever reason, But appears to think he can act like a back water nobody in how he went about it. Maybe for hicks that will work but not for thinking bible reading people which for the record make most of the 3abn world, and certainly 99% of the people on this forum.

At this point in the game the very best thing for danny to would be to either publicly provide prove that he has acted correctly in a manner that is outside a court room, Or resign until the court case is done.

The burden of proof is on the one bring the charges and S.A. does not meet he bibical burden of prove for the divorce. The reason i focus on that isse so strongly is because Danny has mislead the 3abn world on that issue why are we to believe that he has not done the same on the Tommy issue or the money issues.

FHB, i am a nobody in the church, if 3abn wanted to end this mess they are in they should have gone to the GC or ASi and said picks a group of 24 nobodies int he church that will serve as a jury on this issues and then held court inside of the church, after that was done then going to a court of the public record might have been understandable.

Erik

[erik]

*****************************************************************************

The information that he either was supplied or that he made up is false. If all of this info was not false then why would Danny and 3ABN sue he and Pickle? Is anyone thinking?

Appletree,


I am betting that in this one sentence you have reveled the whole reason danny went to court because he is betting that everyone will
go for the the line if it is not false then why would danny go to court.

the anwser is simple because courts very rarely revel truth anymore, they revel which every side is able to better present their side of the truth.

danny is betting that the his side of the truth will be better presented then the other side of the truth.


Ok, lets take the whole marrying brandi thing, first off this timing of the remarriage does not look that great, if they were truely in love then waiting to get married would have been no trouble and would have prevented the appearance of evil.

point 2. Danny own words have lead to the understand that Brandi was waiting in the wings, when he said on tape that she had been chasing him for years, or is the tape lying, is the tape false?

point 3, the age difference between the two parties in danny's third marriage do not look that great.

Point 4. Danny's right to remarry is highly in question? why one would ask maybe because there as of today not been given any I repeat ANY biblical reason for that divorce to have happened.

Lets say that in fact danny is in the clear then simple spell it out for the "slow minds" of Bob and Gailon, instead of going to court, look like the big guy who is turning his cheek inside of the big business guy with the attitude that a "lawsuit is a business tool"

appletree when you are in the public eye then the standards are higher, you want this to be true for Pickle and Joy, but not 3abn or a Shelton.

WHY????????????


Erik

[appletree]

Heavy Stuff. But, there is much heavier stuff that Gailon and Bob currently posses.

Is it on you? Let's face it. Your friends feel that somehow by trying to dig up dirt on the Shelton family or 3abn employees that it helps their campaigne against 3ABN. Maybe it does gossip wise, but will have no meaning in a Federal Court. What Johnny or Susie did or did not do 15 years ago has nothing to do with how the organization is run. Think about it. If we were to try and investigate the families, employees or ex employees, of every ministry, every conference position or anything else that has to do with the church, for the last 30 years, how much dirt or alleged dirt do you think we would find? If we think we found Pastor So and so guilty of "borrowing from the till" back in 1991, do we hold whomever his conference president was at the time, responsible? Of course not. If we were told that 10 years ago someone at AF was guilty of pre marital relations, is it Dougs fault?
You get the point. Your Buddies in this conspiracy are trying to hold Danny Shelton responsible for any alleged sin or mistake supposedly committed by those around him, past, present and future.'
Therefore, beartrap if their "so called" investigations were fair and unbiased you would certainly be at risk. You, yourself have said you would always be linked to the Shelton family through your children and certainly were a part of their family for many years. According to the Pickle and Joy rules, anything allegedly in your past (whether it be true or not doesn't matter) is fair game. Better watch yourself!

Because every reader knows what I have addressed is true, how can you take anything they write seriously? If they truly loved the 3ABN ministry and were concerned about finances and an above board administration, all of these lurid tales and accusations about everyone and anyone would never be brought into this. This is the height of unprofessionalism and proves a vendetta against the Shelton Family and 3ABN employees as a whole. True investigators would stick to facts pertaining directly to the present situation and whatever departments they have questions about. All of this tabloid trash has no part in a professional investigation, much less, one that is supposedly being handled by christians against christians.
This tells me and should tell you that all these other accusations and insinuations against others is publicized because they don't have verifiable proof to backup their accusations against Danny and 3ABN. If they did, they wouldn't need all of this other to distract and provide a smoke screen while they frantically try to come up with proof that a Federal Court will accept. I for one, would love to be there to see them explain to a Federal judge how that Danny's brothers, cousins wife allegedly having a "shot gun" wedding 10 years ago, has a direct bearing on their case. There is something horribly wrong when people have to try and smear the reputations and lives of others because they don't have enough proof to stick to the facts.

[watchbird]

Because every reader knows what I have addressed is true....

Ah appletree... we had such high hopes for you when you started. We really thought that with your obvious connections, you probably could tell us some "inside information" from behind the sacred walls of 3abn.... but alas.... all you do is parrot those who have come on before.... claiming that things we know are true are lies.... and expecting to build your credibility in that way.

So sorry... it's .... ....

[Brenda]

Appletree, I am an onlooker only in all of this. I agree with you that wholesale smearing of the extended Shelton family proves nothing against 3ABN.

However the allegations against Tommy Shelton are serious, and he has been removed from 3ABN employ and later reinstated with allegations still hanging over him. I feel those with questions about the probity of such an action are entitled to ask them.

[Panama_Pete]

Therefore, beartrap if their "so called" investigations were fair and unbiased you would certainly be at risk. You, yourself have said you would always be linked to the Shelton family through your children and certainly were a part of their family for many years. According to the Pickle and Joy rules, anything allegedly in your past (whether it be true or not doesn't matter) is fair game. Better watch yourself!

O Apple Tree, O Apple Tree,
Your beauty green will teach me
That hope and love will ever be
The way to joy and peace for me.
O Apple Tree, O Apple Tree,
Your beauty green will teach me.