Is This Apostasy?, Dr. Walt Thompson, 3abn Board Chairman Options

[Aletheia]

Panther,

I would appreciate it greatly if you refrain from twisting my words. I never said that there was any problem at all with Jim Gilley joining 3ABN. My complaint is that Walt Thompson said that Jim Gilley is joining Danny, which sends a clear and strong message that Danny isn't going anywhere, and that Walt has no problem with that.

So? The truth is Jim Gilley is joining Danny Shelton, and 3ABN, as President, and D.S. isn't going anywhere and Dr Thompson, chairman of the 3ABN board obviously doesn't have a problem with that.

Just because you have a problem with that doesn't mean the one you disagree with is a apostate.

Apostasy=damnation--it is a turning away from, and rejection of God's truth, which was previously known and accepted and followed.

Apostasy DOES NOT= disagreeing with Pickle's judgments and opinions

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Sep 1 2007, 07:12 AM

[SoulEspresso]

Apostasy has been used in the Adventist church to mean immorality. That's a misuse of the word.

3ABN is mired in a moral and ethical disaster regarding the actions of Danny Shelton and the leaders he chose to rubber-stamp his work. See the documents. Danny may eat and drink judgment on himself for all of this. But he hasn't renounced his belief system. That would be apostasy. We don't know his eternal destiny!

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think one of Pickle's goals in all this is to make sure 3ABN's leadership has a context in which to repent of their public sins. That said, I do wish he wouldn't use hot-button words to work that direction.

The ends don't justify the means, because the ends are not in our hands, but God's. All we have are means, and we have to choose the right ones.

Both those who defend 3ABN at all costs (!) and those who'd like to see change have, at times, used questionable means. I wish we could stop that and deal with the issues.

Here's a question for Aletheia, FHB, panther/Lee, or anyone from that POV who'd like to answer: do you see any problems in the actions of Danny or the other leaders at 3ABN over the last 3 years? Should they have done anything different? If so, what?

I'm hoping for some common ground here. After all, aren't we all going to be neighbors in the kingdom someday?

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Sep 1 2007, 07:25 AM

[Pickle]

"Peter, when brought to the test, sinned greatly. In denying the Master he had loved and served, he became a cowardly apostate. But his Lord did not cast him off; he freely forgave him" (RH 11-16-86).

It is true that Peter denied his faith in Christ, but this was clearly not the end of the road for him.

Aletheia,

For Walt Thompson to continue to defend and support Danny's continued presence at 3ABN in spite of the documented and proven problems, something is dreadfully wrong with that.

Is there another way you would feel more comfortable in describing his departure from generally accepted Christian and Adventist standards?

This post has been edited by Pickle: Sep 1 2007, 05:28 PM

[Pickle]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I think one of Pickle's goals in all this is to make sure 3ABN's leadership has a context in which to repent of their public sins.

Absolutely.

[PeacefulBe]

Glad that you have all knowledge, Clay!
But I see where you stand...

Is this the next thread that you are going to shut down?
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GULP!!!

Um... Artiste, I guess you didn't see the memo about treating Calvin and the Admins(Clay, Di) with respect!. Clay must have been in a generous mood last evening if he didn't suspend you for a bit over this.

Best to choose windmills wisely when one's panties are in a bunch. Sometimes they bite back.

[västergötland]

You are right as to the specific meaning of those words; however, the connotations of "founder and visionary" in reference to a religious organization that claims to be part of the SDA church give a broader meaning to them.


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Its not like 3abn is a denomination, is it? If it is a denomination, then that might be apostacy from the SDA church, but if it is just a buisness, no.

[västergötland]

I'll clarify by saying that I stopped short of saying that Danny remarried without biblical grounds, since I can't prove that beyond doubt. But it is quite clear by his own admissions that he divorced without such grounds.

Now pick any church dignitary you wish. If he got caught reselling in a week a house he bought from his own ministry, netting a profit of nearly $129,000, if he got caught trying to convince his ex to violate IRS regulations, if he got caught admitting that he didn't know whether his ex had committed fornication after he had already divorced her, and then if you caught me supporting him tooth and nail, defending him to the hilt, announcing to the world that a new president was going to join him, would the thought cross your mind at some point that the term "apostasy" just might possibly apply to me?

What would you think if I did something like that?

That you needed to return to reality? If supporting people who are repeat offenders in less than well thought throug actions is apostacy, that would not be kind to those SDAs who support the US president tooth and nail, would it? (Not commenting on any possible crimes here since no jury or judge has convicted anyone.)

[västergötland]

Go ahead, Clay ... it indicates to me that you are moving toward the ranks of Panther, FHB, et al ...




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Almost looks like you are trying to bully Clay... Not that I think it will work...

I agree with Clay, that Danny appears to be a public repeat sinner who has declined to repent does not an apostate make.

Main Entry:apos·tate : one who commits apostasy


Main Entry:apos·ta·sy 1 : renunciation of a religious faith
2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : defection

[västergötland]

"Peter, when brought to the test, sinned greatly. In denying the Master he had loved and served, he became a cowardly apostate. But his Lord did not cast him off; he freely forgave him" (RH 11-16-86).

It is true that Peter denied his faith in Christ, but this was clearly not the end of the road for him.

Aletheia,

For Walt Thompson to continue to defend and support Danny's continued presence at 3ABN in spite of the documented and proven problems, something is dreadfully wrong with that.

Is there another way you would feel more comfortable in describing his departure from generally accepted Christian and Adventist standard?

The day when Danny or Walt are publicly heard denying the Lord Jesus, that day the word apostacy becomes appropriate for this thread, and not a day sooner than that. IMHO!

[YogusBearus]

Its not like 3abn is a denomination, is it? If it is a denomination, then that might be apostacy from the SDA church, but if it is just a buisness, no.

Good point Thomas. I have to admit at being a bit put off with the cavalier use of the term apostasy. I've seen it applied with abandon to those religious progressive types and well as the General Conference. It's apparently one of those words guaranteed to get a specific rise out of certain people. I haven't seen it applied to bears yet but suppose it's only a matter of time.

-bear

[Seraphim7]

It was suggested today on this forum by Bob Pickle, SDA apologist and research scholar, that the statements of Dr. Walter Thompson, the Chairman of the Board of 3ABN, might be seen as an act of apostasy.

The statement in question came about as 3ABN was announcing the accession of Elder Jim Gilley to 3ABN as the new president. Walt Thompson wrote, "Jim joins Danny Shelton, founder and visionary of 3ABN..."

After a brief glance I observed that the comments "it was suggested and might be seen as apostasy" have gotten a whole lot of millage. The thread in itself has started out on a faulty premise and the flames of said premise are fueled by no more than assumption, from what I have observed.

It would have been wiser to simply PM the brother and ask what he meant specifically before making an accusation based on what one assumed he meant. Of course, for some, that would be less dramatic, not to mention making to much sense. But hey, mijm.

[Seraphim7]

Linda Shelton, as the other co-founder, has been stripped of acknowledgement for her work and contributions for all those years by this statement.
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Artiste are you saying that LS has been stripped of acknowledgements specifically by Pickles statement? Please clarify... Danke

[Seraphim7]

I agree Cindy. Some people seem to have a cog loose and are willing to go to any depths to drag others in the mud of their gossip. Elder Jim is JOINING 3ABN to help there. So what is the big deal about that? This doesn't make anyone an apostate! Pickle, you must be getting DESPERATE if this is your evidence of apostasy.

Oh my, better get busy everyone--please do check out Elder Jim Gilley (not sure I spelled his name right)--you surely must TRY HARD to find something you can blame him for....and if you can't find it, please be sure to make it up. You're so good at writing fictional hogwash.

Fiction is something you seem to be even better at, based on the above statement referring to Pickle as desperate.

First, Artiste started this particular writing of fictional hogwash. Second, Pickle has made clarification which Artiste, seems to understand and has accepted. Third, you have conveniently ignored the items "it was suggested and might be seen as apostasy" commentary noted in the original op started by Artiste, not Pickle. Finally, you continue to accuse Pickle based on Artistes faulty premise, and with vigor I might add. Panther, you just might want to back up off the brother before someone mistakes you for the accuser of the brethren.

[beartrap]

I agree Cindy. Some people seem to have a cog loose and are willing to go to any depths to drag others in the mud of their gossip. Elder Jim is JOINING 3ABN to help there. So what is the big deal about that? This doesn't make anyone an apostate! Pickle, you must be getting DESPERATE if this is your evidence of apostasy.

Oh my, better get busy everyone--please do check out Elder Jim Gilley (not sure I spelled his name right)--you surely must TRY HARD to find something you can blame him for....and if you can't find it, please be sure to make it up. You're so good at writing fictional hogwash.

Fictional hogwash? Trying hard to find something and making it up if you can't? That reminds me of 3ABN and Danny.

This post has been edited by beartrap: Sep 1 2007, 06:04 PM

[Artiste]

Artiste are you saying that LS has been stripped of acknowledgements specifically by Pickles statement? Please clarify... Danke

Seraphim, the quote in question was the statement by Walt Thompson, "Jim joins Danny Shelton, founder and visionary of 3ABN." The objection was to the ignoring of Linda's role as co-founder.



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This post has been edited by Artiste: Sep 1 2007, 04:29 PM