Is This Apostasy?, Dr. Walt Thompson, 3abn Board Chairman Options

[Pickle]

Is it sin? Yes. Is it morally and ethically reprehensible? Absolutely. Is it apostasy? No... not even for those among us who are trying to serve up the 3ABN kool-aid...and to call it so is to say those who disagree with you are no longer Christian... which is a call none save God is in a position to make.

Agreed that God alone should make such calls.

Part of the dilemma has been that this word has had different shades of meaning for different folks. For example, you can find a lot of SoP quotes that refer to an apostate church or churches, and yet you can find those churches still referred to in the SoP as Christendom and their members as professed Christians. Thus, for some the word "apostasy" means to no longer be Christian, while for others it means an abandonment of principles once held.

Whether the term applies or not, we are agreed that what is going on is sin, and morally and ethically reprehensible.

[SoulEspresso]

And I got to thinking today, separating theological apostasy and open sin might be dualistic thinking (paganism). In Hebrew thinking, you couldn't believe one thing and do another. You believed what you did.

Actually, this is psychologically true: you believe what you do, not the other way round.

In this respect, apostasy could be synonymous with the tolerance of public sin.

One way to account for the actions of some of the leaders at 3ABN is that they want so desperately to believe that they have not been supporting the wrong all along. Perhaps this is why the Hebrew word for "repent" is "turn around."

I have a lot more sympathy for the act of suppressing cognitive dissonance than for that of consciously knowing what's right and still doing what's wrong. But in my sympathy am I getting into the dualism again?

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Sep 4 2007, 05:09 PM

[Brick Step]

And I got to thinking today, separating theological apostasy and open sin might be dualistic thinking (paganism). In Hebrew thinking, you couldn't believe one thing and do another. You believed what you did.

Actually, this is psychologically true: you believe what you do, not the other way round.

In this respect, apostasy could be synonymous with the tolerance of public sin.

Forgive my slowness. Do the words in bold mean: "What you do is the evidence of what you really believe."

[Brick Step]

“In the history of the world, I don’t know of a midnight that was not followed by a morning.” Dwight Nelson in sermon, “The Kings of the East”, Pioneer Memorial Church, as seen and heard on 3ABN in Australia, 2 September 2007. SoulEspresso, did you hear Elder Dwight Nelson say this in his sermon on 3ABN last Sunday, our time? I could not but remember your signature statement, “Midnight is where the day begins!”

In his sermon as above, Elder Nelson mentioned a family in his congregation who had just experienced a terrible tragedy. He said his own mother had been born in North Korea, and there was a possibility his son-in-law could soon be posted for service in Iraq. We all have dark times in our lives when we are challenged to remember that never in all history was there a midnight that was not followed by a morning.

As I listened through Elder Dwight Nelson’s sermon as aired on 3ABN several days ago, mine was one of I’m sure many, many hearts that “burned within.” It was definitely appropriate when the large congregation stood at the last and sang, “We Have This Hope.” I wondered if Elder Nelson had been doing a little reading on the 3ABN situation as discussed on BSDA. (Or was this sermon a replay of a sermon preached before BSDA?)

Please could I digress a little to explain. IMO, this sermon was an outstanding presentation - powerful, timely, God-blessed! (Thank you 3ABN for airing it.) Elder Nelson briefly told the story in Daniel 5 where King Cyrus from the east, “dried up” the waters of the Euphrates River, and took the city of Babylon in the dead of night. By the light of morning, the captive Jews would have known that King Belshazzar had been slain during the night. They would have heard about the mysterious handwriting on the wall at the Babylonian king’s feast the night before, when he crowned his rebellion against the Creator-God by blasphemously defiling the sacred vessels stolen from the Jerusalem temple. The Jews would have heard how Daniel was called in and enabled by God to interpret that handwriting. The interpretation prophesied what they were seeing and hearing about in the morning. Babylon was judged, found wanting, and had now fallen in the physical sense. The Jews would have thrilled at the practical assurances that God had not been sleeping through their night of captivity in Babylon. He was moving to accomplish their deliverance and return to Jerusalem, just as prophesied. Their prayers were being answered. Here indeed was a great and historic morning following a historic night.

Then Elder Nelson gave the antitypical, endtime application of the story in Daniel 5. “And the sixth angel poured out his bowl [this is the sixth plague] upon the great river Euphrates, and its water was dried up, so that the way of the kings from the east might be prepared.” Revelation 16:12 (NKJV).

The “kings of the east”, like Cyrus (his name actually means the "sun", according to Louis Were), like the sun which rises in the east, are the Light of this world. Jesus is “the Light”, “the sun of righteousness.” And His children, or wife (represented by the persecuted woman “clothed with the sun” in the prophetic allegory of Revelation 12) are an extension of His glory, and also wear crowns. Those who touch this innocent woman, His wife (even in this 3ABN debacle), touch Him, and He is the CREATOR-GOD! He WILL speak to the situation, and has ALL POWER and ALL AUTHORITY to do so.

It was noted that the text says, “kings of the east” (plural) and not “king of the east (singular). Jesus is the “King of the east”, and “King of kings”, but—wonder of wonders—He has made the redeemed to be “kings” (Rev 1:6; 3:21; etc.).

So, I thought, that stone which like the seventh plague destroys the metal man image in Daniel 2, must represent not only King Jesus and the second coming, but the redeemed “kings” who comprise His kingdom. It figures: Either the redeemed are part of the stone, or they are part of the image destroyed by it. There’s no other group. The pre-Advent judgment taught by at least most evangelists on 3ABN is clearly implied even in Daniel 2.

I have not done justice to Elder Nelson's sermon, "The Kings of the East." But I still venture to say it very powerfully showed who was in charge of the sunrise and the morning, and it is not Satan and the forces of evil. It is the King of kings, Jesus our Creator and Redeemer. There is certain and wonderful hope for those still living through the night. And in the lesser battles being waged along the way, those who truly value Truth, those with patience listening for His voice, following where He leads at whatever cost, will share in the glory which changes earth's night to morning.

This post has been edited by Brick Step: Sep 4 2007, 08:04 PM

[Johann]

While this is going on I received a message that the senior founder of another supporting ministry wanted to talk to me, so I called him. He told me that he was seriously concerned about 3ABN. He was impressed how God had led the Sheltons in developing this great network, and what an important role it has played in proclaiming the truth to the world. Just like his own ministry, the great purpose of these institutions were to keep the proclamation pure and clean, and in this respect 3ABN had shown great faith and courage. He told me he was still watching the 3ABN broadcasts, and he felt that much of it is still a great blessing and used by God.

This senior founder of a spiritually rich ministry also told me of his own experiences, and what dangers you meet as you venture out reaching greater heights. You feel that God is blessing, and He is supporting you in the work. The great danger is when you think you are so fully on God's side that you feel safe in making decisions on His behalf. He did not know the details in what could have gone wrong at 3ABN, but the outwards culmination of apostasy occurred when 3ABN and Danny Shelton took Joy and Pickle to a federal court. By then 3ABN and Danny Shelton had lost their footing, and only a thorough reformation can save this institution from reversing its original purpose.

So in which direction will the new president take 3ABN?

This post has been edited by Johann: Sep 5 2007, 01:40 AM

[Artiste]

The problem is 3ABN != Israel... not even a little bit. Hyperbole as a means of demonization is just a bit too far over the top, n'est-ce pas? Apostasy requires a grander scale than Thompsonville and that burden is not met, regardless of how spiritually dark, deceiving, or neutral in the face of evil the powers that be at 3ABN may be.

Is it sin? Yes. Is it morally and ethically reprehensible? Absolutely. Is it apostasy? No... not even for those among us who are trying to serve up the 3ABN kool-aid...and to call it so is to say those who disagree with you are no longer Christian... which is a call none save God is in a position to make.

If you want to believe Danny's camp wrong as two left shoes, that is fine... but that doesn't make them apostate any more than their believing you to be equally wrong makes you apostate. Ground zero of the Great Controversy is not the 3ABN compound... no matter how skewed your perception may become because of hyperfocusing.

In His service,
Mr. J

I have been getting the feeling more and more over the last several months that the problems of 3ABN have been playing out indeed over a "grander scale than Thompsonville".

There are prominent and well-educated people at this moment who believe that church leadership is covering up and/or enabling the things going on there.


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[beartrap]

I have been getting the feeling more and more over the last several months that the problems of 3ABN have been playing out indeed over a "grander scale than Thompsonville".

There are prominent and well-educated people at this moment who believe that church leadership is covering up and/or enabling the things going on there.
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Dear Artiste,

Over the course of human history there have been millions of prominent and well-educated people who have fallen for the coverups enacted by the elite who specialize in sreading whatever the current "gospel" may be. There have also been those few who see through the lies and deceptions enacted upon them by the people on "the cutting edge." In the end, those who remain true to consience live, and the others die.

Be true to yourself,and the truth.

[västergötland]

And I got to thinking today, separating theological apostasy and open sin might be dualistic thinking (paganism). In Hebrew thinking, you couldn't believe one thing and do another. You believed what you did.

Actually, this is psychologically true: you believe what you do, not the other way round.

In this respect, apostasy could be synonymous with the tolerance of public sin.

One way to account for the actions of some of the leaders at 3ABN is that they want so desperately to believe that they have not been supporting the wrong all along. Perhaps this is why the Hebrew word for "repent" is "turn around."

I have a lot more sympathy for the act of suppressing cognitive dissonance than for that of consciously knowing what's right and still doing what's wrong. But in my sympathy am I getting into the dualism again?

This of course would mean that it is even more important to avoid the "the ends justify the means" thinking...

[Artiste]

Dear Artiste,

Over the course of human history there have been millions of prominent and well-educated people who have fallen for the coverups enacted by the elite who specialize in sreading whatever the current "gospel" may be. There have also been those few who see through the lies and deceptions enacted upon them by the people on "the cutting edge." In the end, those who remain true to consience live, and the others die.

Be true to yourself,and the truth.

Thank you, Beartrap ...


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This post has been edited by Artiste: Sep 5 2007, 02:38 AM

[Clay]

I have been getting the feeling more and more over the last several months that the problems of 3ABN have been playing out indeed over a "grander scale than Thompsonville".

There are prominent and well-educated people at this moment who believe that church leadership is covering up and/or enabling the things going on there.
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that still does not qualify as apostasy.... and only the naive would believe that the church is always upfront and honest.....

[Brick Step]

While this is going on I received a message that the senior founder of another supporting ministry wanted to talk to me, so I called him. He told me that he was seriously concerned about 3ABN. He was impressed how God had led the Sheltons in developing this great network, and what an important role it has played in proclaiming the truth to the world. Just like his own ministry, the great purpose of these institutions were to keep the proclamation pure and clean, and in this respect 3ABN had shown great faith and courage. He told me he was still watching the 3ABN broadcasts, and he felt that much of it is still a great blessing and used by God.

This senior founder of a spiritually rich ministry also told me of his own experiences, and what dangers you meet as you venture out reaching greater heights. You feel that God is blessing, and He is supporting you in the work. The great danger is when you think you are so fully on God's side that you feel safe in making decisions on His behalf. He did not know the details in what could have gone wrong at 3ABN, but the outwards culmination of apostasy occurred when 3ABN and Danny Shelton took Joy and Pickle to a federal court. By then 3ABN and Danny Shelton had lost their footing, and only a thorough reformation can save this institution from reversing its original purpose.

So in which direction will the new president take 3ABN?

Thank you for these comments. I think they summarize the feelings and concerns of many.

We cannot but observe also that in the life of the church, it is not only 3ABN and not only a supporting ministry that has resorted to taking perceived trouble-makers to court. "Outward culmination of apostasy?" Hm...

God help us all.

[SoulEspresso]

Forgive my slowness. Do the words in bold mean: "What you do is the evidence of what you really believe."

Close but not exactly. It's more like, "We decide what to do first, and then adjust our beliefs to fit our actions."

Human beings are not rational creatures; they are creatures that rationalize. At least this one is!

I wish I could have heard Pastor Nelson's sermon. He's not perfect but I have warm fuzzies for him because of an old family incident ...

[Artiste]

While this is going on I received a message that the senior founder of another supporting ministry wanted to talk to me, so I called him. He told me that he was seriously concerned about 3ABN. He was impressed how God had led the Sheltons in developing this great network, and what an important role it has played in proclaiming the truth to the world. Just like his own ministry, the great purpose of these institutions were to keep the proclamation pure and clean, and in this respect 3ABN had shown great faith and courage. He told me he was still watching the 3ABN broadcasts, and he felt that much of it is still a great blessing and used by God.

This senior founder of a spiritually rich ministry also told me of his own experiences, and what dangers you meet as you venture out reaching greater heights. You feel that God is blessing, and He is supporting you in the work. The great danger is when you think you are so fully on God's side that you feel safe in making decisions on His behalf. He did not know the details in what could have gone wrong at 3ABN, but the outwards culmination of apostasy occurred when 3ABN and Danny Shelton took Joy and Pickle to a federal court. By then 3ABN and Danny Shelton had lost their footing, and only a thorough reformation can save this institution from reversing its original purpose.

So in which direction will the new president take 3ABN?

[Artiste]

Thank you for these comments. I think they summarize the feelings and concerns of many.

We cannot but observe also that in the life of the church, it is not only 3ABN and not only a supporting ministry that has resorted to taking perceived trouble-makers to court. "Outward culmination of apostasy?" Hm...

God help us all.

"...In the life of the church..."

Has the church lost its dependence and direction from God alone?


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[Clay]

"...In the life of the church..."

Has the church lost its dependence and direction from God alone?
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some would ask if those who want to see Mr. Shelton removed if they have lost their dependence on God to handle Mr. Shelton and the issues at 3abn.... see, that door swings both ways.....