Danny Shelton/3abn Board Are Innocent?, Well, then, there must be some proof, so bring it on! Options

[Ozzie]

I copy and pasted just what he wrote.

If you need verification, maybe this will help.

If he gave you permission to post his reply to you, would you post that here also please? That is the expectation here. Thanks in advance.

[YogusBearus]

Hmm. Two of Kirk Talley's email addresses left in the posting?

Yep, Dona just doesn't have all that subterfuge down yet. I do notice that his site does publish his e-mail as well as a telephone contact (http://www.kirk-talley.com/contact.htm). Maybe we should contact him again and do some serious interrogation.

-bear

[SoulEspresso]

People in the helping professions are generally expected to have been trained well in issues of transference and counter-transference. They have often engaged in considerable instropection to the point where they are comfortable with their own sexuality, and can acknowledge (recognize) what is going on in their owh psyche. As such thay have been trained to act responsibility.

Unfortunately, SDA clergy (and some other clergy) often to not have that training.

If they have the training, they usually went out and got it on their own. The seminary degree (MDiv) involves two or three counseling classes, which help, but do not qualify a student as being "trained well." It can't be done in the amount of time.

Generally speaking I think pastors without the training ought to recuse themselves from all the counseling they can.

[Shepherdswife]

If they have the training, they usually went out and got it on their own. The seminary degree (MDiv) involves two or three counseling classes, which help, but do not qualify a student as being "trained well." It can't be done in the amount of time.

Generally speaking I think pastors without the training ought to recuse themselves from all the counseling they can.

Most of the ones I know (and the one I live with) do not do extended counseling. He will talk to a couple once, maybe twice, but then refers them on. The pastors I know who do it more extensively either have more training and certification, or think they have a "gift" or dispensation--a reason why the "rules" don't apply to them, and I have seen it get them into trouble...

[Observer]

Most of the ones I know (and the one I live with) do not do extended counseling. He will talk to a couple once, maybe twice, but then refers them on. The pastors I know who do it more extensively either have more training and certification, or think they have a "gift" or dispensation--a reason why the "rules" don't apply to them, and I have seen it get them into trouble...

Some additions to your list:

They simply do not understand what is involved in counsseling.

They happen to think that they have been given the gift of directing other people's lives.

They have their own personal agenda, and attempt to direct people in that direction.

[inga]

Gregory wrote in reference to the suggestion that a Bible study might be given in an institutional setting in a room with the door opn ...

However, personal privacy concerns may dictate that doors be closed. In a situation where the door is open, privacy is not maintained. People walking by my open office door will be able to hear anything that is said in my office.

Why in the world, would there be "privacy concerns" in a Bible study?

I suggest that when "privacy concerns" come up, it is no longer a "Bible study." It is either inappropriately intimate/personal sharing or a situation where a professionally trained counselor needs to be involved. (And, btw, most pastors do not have such training.)

By the way, in my personal opinion, for a person in a helping profession to become sexually involved with one whom he is helping should be treated as satuatory rape. Unfortunately, in my opinion, in most places, the law does not agree with me.

I fully agree with you, Gregory. If more pastors and others who see themselves called to provide spiritual support would see the situation as serious enough to adopt this view, perhaps we would see fewer cases of sexual misconduct and the resulting cover-up and moving of pastors to another district.

[princessdi]

Agreed. YB that would border and cross the border on being absurd. Let's let this one go.

Yep, Dona just doesn't have all that subterfuge down yet. I do notice that his site does publish his e-mail as well as a telephone contact (http://www.kirk-talley.com/contact.htm). Maybe we should contact him again and do some serious interrogation.

-bear

[inga]

However, coorect me if I am wrong, Dona, but this was posted as a sort of "rebuke" for those who brought up the incident in the first place. MJBM, but the part that was over the top ws actually writing this man to ask him about it.

Totally so!!

Couldn't believe my eyes ... that someone actually wrote Kirk about such a trivial incident!!

[PeacefulBe]

Totally so!!

Couldn't believe my eyes ... that someone actually wrote Kirk about such a trivial incident!!

Inga,

Obviously you haven't read much in some of the other threads, or at least haven't caught up quite yet. Yesterday, LaurenceD posted a link to Zen.....And The Art of Debunkery which clearly teaches to make use of JUST such trivial incidents in the pursuit of debunking all other evidence by default. You will see what I mean when you have the time to read through this valuable primer!

[Observer]

Gregory wrote in reference to the suggestion that a Bible study might be given in an institutional setting in a room with the door opn ...
Why in the world, would there be "privacy concerns" in a Bible study?

I suggest that when "privacy concerns" come up, it is no longer a "Bible study." It is either inappropriately intimate/personal sharing or a situation where a professionally trained counselor needs to be involved. (And, btw, most pastors do not have such training.)

Why would there be privacy concerns in a Bible Study?

1) Mrs. X wants to commit to becomming a SDA. Her husband is not taking Bible Studies, and does not intend to become a SDA. Mrs. X has just been given a study on paying tithe. She wants to talk privately to the pastor in regard to how that might affect her, with a husband who has not intention of paying tithe. Her financial matters are private and should not be shared with someone walking down the hall. This is a pastoral situation, and may not need a trained counselor.

2) Same situaiton. Mr. Y has questions to ask the pastor in regard to Sabbath observance, and entertainment in a situation where her husband is not interested, and has expectations of her.

3) Same situation, Mr. J has concerns over the food that his non-SDA wife might put on the table. He does not want this to be public knowledge.

4) Same situtaion. Mrs. P is concerned about the spiritual condition of her husband/son/sister (you name it). She does not want the public to know of the details. She wants privacy.

5) Different situation: AP is sitting in my office. We are discussing the 2nd Advent. If the door is open, others will hear our discussion. AP does not want this new spiritual interest to reach co-workers, as an agnostic, and an atheist may "hassle" AP.



The bottom line is that there are many reasons for talking to a clergyperson, and keeping privacy, that are valid, and not related to intimacy and Professional counseling.

[princessdi]

Thank you, Greg!! at least two of the situations came to mind immediately. Plus the study of hte Word can elicit confessions, etc. ALL that is private.

Why would there be privacy concerns in a Bible Study?

1) Mrs. X wants to commit to becomming a SDA. Her husband is not taking Bible Studies, and does not intend to become a SDA. Mrs. X has just been given a study on paying tithe. She wants to talk privately to the pastor in regard to how that might affect her, with a husband who has not intention of paying tithe. Her financial matters are private and should not be shared with someone walking down the hall. This is a pastoral situation, and may not need a trained counselor.

2) Same situaiton. Mr. Y has questions to ask the pastor in regard to Sabbath observance, and entertainment in a situation where her husband is not interested, and has expectations of her.

3) Same situation, Mr. J has concerns over the food that his non-SDA wife might put on the table. He does not want this to be public knowledge.

4) Same situtaion. Mrs. P is concerned about the spiritual condition of her husband/son/sister (you name it). She does not want the public to know of the details. She wants privacy.

5) Different situation: AP is sitting in my office. We are discussing the 2nd Advent. If the door is open, others will hear our discussion. AP does not want this new spiritual interest to reach co-workers, as an agnostic, and an atheist may "hassle" AP.
The bottom line is that there are many reasons for talking to a clergyperson, and keeping privacy, that are valid, and not related to intimacy and Professional counseling.

[ex3ABNemployee]

I apologize for being here, but I wanted to respond to summertime's concern regarding Kirk Talley.

The story of Kirk's struggle with homosexuality is indeed true, as he himself admitted to the world through his website. Reports are that, for a while, Kirk took the "it's no one's business but mine" attitude, and would become furious if anyone brought it up. Fortunately, some time ago, Kirk realized that he was heading in the wrong direction, and came forward with his struggle, seeking prayer and support from the Christian community as he undertook the recovery process.

Every one of us stumbles from time to time. It's part of being human. Kirk Talley is a Christian brother, and for whatever reason, homosexuality is the web in which he became entangled. While we should never be tolerant of homosexuality to any degree, we should love, encourage, and pray for those who are entrapped by it. I do not know Kirk's current status, but I do know that, as with all such situations, the scars left behind will be there forever. Let us all pray for Kirk Talley as he continues to seek the Lord and to put this painful chapter of his life behind him.

Thank you, summertime, for your concern for this very talented individual, and for reminding us to continue to pray for him.

I also pray that Kirk finds true cleansing and restoration.

Maybe since he and Danny are such good friends, he can help Danny convince his brother to come clean as well.

[Nandina]

I also pray that Kirk finds true cleansing and restoration.

Maybe since he and Danny are such good friends, he can help Danny convince his brother to come clean as well.

Dear Duane,
Even now I believe Tommy is being hotly pursued by The Hound of Heaven (http://www.houndsofheaven.com/thepoem.htm) and no man can outrun Him. I believe Tommy does not have a moment of rest, nor peace of mind, and I believe it is just getting hotter for him. When he is completely breathless and spent he will cry out... There is no place left for him to hide, and the enablers in his life are beginning to wake up and smell the coffee. Much pain for all, but healing in the end.

Nandina

[PeacefulBe]

Nandina,

While there is breath and prayer there is hope!!!

[Ian]

Dear Duane,
Even now I believe Tommy is being hotly pursued by The Hound of Heaven (http://www.houndsofheaven.com/thepoem.htm) and no man can outrun Him. I believe Tommy does not have a moment of rest, nor peace of mind, and I believe it is just getting hotter for him. When he is completely breathless and spent he will cry out... There is no place left for him to hide, and the enablers in his life are beginning to wake up and smell the coffee. Much pain for all, but healing in the end.

Nandina

Nandina,

It sounds as if you know he is guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt.

How?

Am I confused? didn't you say you didn't know any specifics about the allegations and what was going on in your church in Virginia specifically?

I previously asked you for the name of a board member or official wo was investigating this, or who I could contact at your church to get more info, and if you let me know, as you said you would, I didn't see of recieve it.

Please post the info, or if it's private send me a pm.

Thanks.