How Does Asi Play Into All This? Options

[Snoopy]

I know this has been addressed and answered by at least Appletree, FHB, and myself in as many threads, if you didn't accept it there, you won't here, stop beating a dead horse, please.

:offtopic:

The question certainly has NOT been answered regardless of what you say. Thank goodness it is not your opinion that matters, but that of Judge Saylor.

This post has been edited by Snoopy: Sep 9 2007, 11:13 PM

[beartrap]

I know this has been addressed and answered by at least Appletree, FHB, and myself in just as many threads, if not more. Why do you all keep bringingt up your same accusations and claims as if it hasn't? You didn't accept it there, so you certainly won't here, so stop pretending you will., please.


Also:
:

No, Aletheia, it has not been answered by yourself, or anyone else. It has been said that 3ABN said what they said in the Pickle/Joy case in order to protect the church from possible countersuit, but it in no way addresses the veracity of the statement, and it seems quite obvious that there is a significant chasm of difference between the statements in those two cases. NO person, including you has even started to address that issue. Would you care to do so? I am not making an allegation, I am simply stating that it appears that there are conflicting legal statements by 3ABN in these two suits, and I am asking you (or anyone) to address that PARTICULAR issue. and BTW... why would 3ABN that worried about a countersuit against the church, 3ABN or anyone else?

This post has been edited by beartrap: Sep 9 2007, 10:57 PM

[Artiste]

and you would know this because? was a survey conducted? or it is your perception that the public's perception of the 3abn forum of BSDA is anti-danny?

Clay, the latest piece of evidence that I would use to back up this claim is the reported comments of Danny Shelton at a meeting that he was going to go after the BSDA and MSDAOL "bloggers", appearing to threaten legal action again. He felt and many others do also that BSDA is providing damaging information against him, hence the "anti-Danny" perception.

Clay, with very much due respect to you as a BSDA administrator, umm, I don't know what else to say...I hear from widely different places and sources that BSDA is the source of information about 3ABN and Danny Shelton, and they are not referring to positive or flattering information...

However, I do get the impression that Calvin intends for the forum to be equal opportunity for both sides, and I see that to be the case in general.


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[AHillock]

Clay, the latest piece of evidence that I would use to back up this claim is the reported comments of Danny Shelton at a meeting that he was going to go after the BSDA and MSDAOL "bloggers", appearing to threaten legal action again. He felt and many others do also that BSDA is providing damaging information against him, hence the "anti-Danny" perception.

Clay, with very much due respect to you as a BSDA administrator, umm, I don't know what else to say...I hear from widely different places and sources that BSDA is the source of information about 3ABN and Danny Shelton, and they are not referring to positive or flattering information...

However, I do get the impression that Calvin intends for the forum to be equal opportunity for both sides, and I see that to be the case in general.
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Could it be one sided due to the fact that Danny really is guilty? Why slander him all of a sudden with multiple reports (by people we have a steak in things) as well as "evidence" to back up their statements?

[Clay]

Clay, the latest piece of evidence that I would use to back up this claim is the reported comments of Danny Shelton at a meeting that he was going to go after the BSDA and MSDAOL "bloggers", appearing to threaten legal action again. He felt and many others do also that BSDA is providing damaging information against him, hence the "anti-Danny" perception.

Clay, with very much due respect to you as a BSDA administrator, umm, I don't know what else to say...I hear from widely different places and sources that BSDA is the source of information about 3ABN and Danny Shelton, and they are not referring to positive or flattering information...

However, I do get the impression that Calvin intends for the forum to be equal opportunity for both sides, and I see that to be the case in general.
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so then your info is from comments made by other adventists? when you said "public perception" I visualized people from all over, not just adventists..... which is what prompted my question..... continue on....

[Musashi]

I know this has been addressed and answered by at least Appletree, FHB, and myself in just as many threads, if not more. Why do you all keep bringingt up your same accusations and claims as if it hasn't? You didn't accept it there, so you certainly won't here, so stop pretending you will., please.


Also:
:

I was indeed guilty of going off topic this last week, but the off topic smiley should not be used as a tool to try to get away with stating that something has been answered that hasn't. Yes ASI's involvement is a complicated issue that some information that is available will give a possible slant to one side while other information may slant to another, but stating that something has been answered multiple times when it has only been skirted is just off.

I have read posts stating that the reason for the non-denominational statement is because the Christian message isn't denominational, that may be, but 3abn's programming and message is both Christian and specifically denominational. I have also read the statements that the non-denominational tag is to keep the church itself from liability. This would seem to mean that 3abn is admitting they have done something worth being liable for. I often have more than one reason for doing something, but I don't usually go against those reasons and sign documents stating my ties and affiliations and then turn around and state that I am not affiliated.

Off topic or not it goes to show a point,...the reason's given for why the ASI involvement broke down are just as varied and sometimes shadowed in double talk. Confusing the issues by appearing double-minded is not helpful for those who, as AH is doing, are looking for information and honest answers.

I hope and pray that with the changes that have been made with the board and leadership that 3abn has turned the corner and is going to go forward stronger. I believe that with these changes they will have even greater ASI involvement and hopefully some sort of greater oversight so that such situations as have arisen will not come up again and the gospel will go forward with power and speed.

This post has been edited by Musashi: Sep 9 2007, 10:35 PM

[Whtz Happenin]

...
Those who have and know the truth are always happy to answer and don't fear questions.
...

I have to disagree with your statement above. I think I know what you were meaning to say, but what you said is much different.

- One could know the truth, be guilty and not want to share the truth.

- One could know the truth, want to protect someone and not want to share the truth.

- One could know the truth, not want to "make the church look bad" and not share the truth.

- One could know the truth, have fear from being abused or fear of losing their job and not share the truth.

The great thing is that if we truely know the Truth, Jesus Christ, we will be set free.

[Pickle]

In the question of ASI's involvement, and why they withdrew, ASI is the best source to explain their own involvement and the reasons for it, and the situation and facts as they understood and saw them which caused them to withdraw. As the question concerns them, it seems they should be consulted first.

The problem is that some who I presume voted the ASI statement relied on Harold Lance's account of the situation. Thus, while it is easy to assume that that statement represents a well-informed consensus, it is not necessarily the case.

See ASI Statement #1 and ASI Statement #2 for the two statements, followed by some responses. I don't think the responses are exhaustive.

[Aletheia]

The question certainly has NOT been answered regardless of what you say. Thank goodness it is not your opinion that matters, but that of Judge Saylor.

Excuse me. I wasn't giving my opinion... Actually, who cares about my opinion, or Judge Saylor's?


You asked, in Post #1

I know this topic has been discussed in various threads here, and I am not trying to "beat a dead horse". But I am curious what the official position is of the 3ABN Board of Directors is. What is 3ABN's relationship, if any, with the SDA Church?
Appletree? ....Panther? Aletheia? FHB? Dona?

Then you posted:

Wow, Aletheia. I am also appalled, so I guess we are in agreement for a change. Maybe you could help me out with something. I was so hoping to get the "official" 3ABN Board of Directors perspective on the connection with the SDA Church, but apparently nobody knows or else the answer is not one that anyone wants to post.

So, I gave you a link to their official position here:

Nobody knows, or wants to post the answer???? Of course they do, and have.

Go here to read their official posittion, and that of the GC also:
http://www.3abn.org/about_3abn.cfm
just click on "Joint declaration of commitment"

Yes, I know you have a secoond question, but don't pretend your first question wasn't answered here. It was. You wanted the official position of 3ABN, you got it.

Your second question is a dead horse you are beating to death, as even you admit, it has been brought up in more then a few recent threads, I say it's answered you and other's say no.

So why don't you, and the others go and address what's posted in one of those threads if you think your question is not answered satisfactorily? I personally am not into repeating myself and very much doubt others who have responded to that topic are either.

[Aletheia]

The problem is that some who I presume voted the ASI statement relied on Harold Lance's account of the situation. Thus, while it is easy to assume that that statement represents a well-informed consensus, it is not necessarily the case.

The problem is bob PRESUMES" that some of those (note that even he doesn't dare to suggest it's all??l) who voted relied ONLY on Harold Lance's account of the situation. Being that he,(Bob) Joy and Matthew's wrote so very much to Lance and 3ABN, which supports Lance's account that's hard to believe... So although it is easy for Bob, being the party ASI finds ar fault, ( nd his supporters who buy all that he says to condemn 3abn and all associated with them) to assume, or want to believe that the ASI statement represents a uninformed and partial consensus, it is not necessarily the case...

Rational people still need evidence and proof...

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Sep 10 2007, 04:31 PM

[AHillock]

I am curious does anyone know the name of the really wealthy SDA businessman from Minnesota who has a lot to say about what happens at 3abn?

[Aletheia]

I am curious does anyone know the name of the really wealthy SDA businessman from Minnesota who has a lot to say about what happens at 3abn?

Are you talkin about Garwin M? He's the only wealthy donor who has been brought up here who is from or was from Minnesota?? Others will correct me if I am wrong.

If so, what has he had to say, that has controlled 3ABN, or concerns you or us?

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Sep 10 2007, 04:27 PM

[Musashi]

Excuse me. I wasn't giving my opinion... Actually, who cares about my opinion, or Judge Saylor's?
You asked, in Post #1
Then you posted:
So, I gave you a link to their official position here:
Yes, I know you have a secoond question, but don't pretend your first question wasn't answered here. It was. You wanted the official position of 3ABN, you got it.

Your second question is a dead horse you are beating to death, as even you admit, it has been brought up in more then a few recent threads, I say it's answered you and other's say no.

So why don't you, and the others go and address what's posted in one of those threads if you think your question is not answered satisfactorily? I personally am not into repeating myself and very much doubt others who have responded to that topic are either.

So what is the official position, the one on their website or the one that is filed in the lawsuit documentation. I ask because filing something false in a legal document is a crime. So we either have a choice of: 1. They are lying to the SDA church in the joint declaration or 2. They are committing an outright crime.

I understand you're not wanting to hash this out on this thread as it is somewhat "off topic", but since it keeps repeating and does show an example of how conflicting reasons are given out and how such conflicting reasoning can be seen in the failed ASI mediation as well, I felt it safe to respond.

This post has been edited by Musashi: Sep 10 2007, 05:08 PM

[Aletheia]

"Those who have and know the truth are always happy to answer and don't fear questions."

I have to disagree with your statement above. I think I know what you were meaning to say, but what you said is much different.

- One could know the truth, be guilty and not want to share the truth.

- One could know the truth, want to protect someone and not want to share the truth.

- One could know the truth, not want to "make the church look bad" and not share the truth.

- One could know the truth, have fear from being abused or fear of losing their job and not share the truth.

The great thing is that if we truely know the Truth, Jesus Christ, we will be set free.

I'm sorry, you are right. Thanks for making that an issue so we can all think about the signifigance of this, and apply it to ourselves before others.

Onee could think all those things and still be lying, even if they say nothing and cause another to believe a lie. The ends don't justify the means and our Creator said "Thou shalt not lie".

I should have said:"Those who have and know,[ and love ] the truth are always happy to answer and don't fear questions."

1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.


Rev 14:1 -5And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads... These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men... And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.




That is contrary to those who make, and (or) love lies instead.

"Rev 22:14 -15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city .For without are ...whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

2Th 2:10- 12 ... with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Rom 1:28 -32 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.



Better?

Ok, carry on...

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Sep 10 2007, 05:28 PM

[Ozzie]

I have to disagree with your statement above. I think I know what you were meaning to say, but what you said is much different.

The great thing is that if we truely know the Truth, Jesus Christ, we will be set free.
I should have said:"Those who have and know,[ and love ] the truth are always happy to answer and don't fear questions."

1Pe 3:10 For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile

1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

1Pe 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and [be] ready always to [give] an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. For [it is] better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.

Rev 14:1 -5And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads... These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men... And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
That is contrary to those who make, and (or) love lies instead.

"Rev 22:14 -15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city .For without are ...whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

2Th 2:10- 12 ... with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Ok, carry on...

Is there some way that you can get this message into Danny's head? Coz he has no compunction about lying and slandering another's charecter, in order to achieve his own goals. Seems like his standard is so-called 'situational ethics', rather then the Word of God.