Rhema: The Basic Belief Of The "word Of Faith Movement"..., How does it relate to Adventism? Options

[PeacefulBe]

Laurence, with a modicum of fear and trembling (due to still having that sand in my sandles from my years in the wilderness) I will comment on the verses you brought up by incorporating into my answer a brief and fairly loose overview of what I learned this last weekend at a seminar given by Dr. Erylene Piper-Mandy.

Back in the mid-19th century, we began building a denominational road, paving it with the lovely yellow/golden bricks we found in the scriptures. These words, carefully interpreted and laid by our forefathers, became our perceived path to "heaven". For generations all were told that to be a part of the Remnant we needed to stay on this road. We were warned that if we didn't religiously follow every brick in this very road, which we proudly claimed to be The True Church, at the end of the journey we would be lost. But where does this road really lead? It may be a beautiful city, indeed, but if you peek behind the curtain, smoke and mirrors, you will find a mere man.

The real journey, as it turns out, is not toeing the line on the yellow brick road to Oz, or even the lovely SDA road itself, it is getting to really know, love and follow Jesus. We can't claim to be infallible in our interpretation of the scriptures, but we can follow the Infallible One who provided them for us. Who can show us the real way to reach heaven? I believe we can find the answer in John 14:1 - 7:

1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."
5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Peter came along and made it quite clear that the apostles and Jewish Christians of that early church were not the only ones who had received "the word of God".

Acts 11:1 - 3: 1 The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him 3 and said, "You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them."

Read the entire chapter. It makes it quite clear that the Gentiles represent more than just the non-Jews of the day. They represent every person and denomination on this planet who has an ear to hear the Creator. Each of the organized religions that they are a part of may also have received God's word. Trying to make our own denomination the exclusive holders of The Truth is an inherently bad idea.

This doesn't mean that there is not power in the scriptures, for there certainly is as is evidenced by these verses:

Hebrews 4:12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Ephesians 6:17, 18: 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

The difference is, if we believe we can use the scriptures to work and find our way to heaven, we are following the yellow brick road to Oz. They are, instead, to point us to Jesus, to who God is, and then we follow Him, even if it He steps off of our yellow brick road.

[västergötland]

My point exactly. So it would help in such a way as to see if there is/is not any difference...and in such a way as only examples can better demonstrate.

But since it takes much more evidence to prove a negative that it takes to prove a positive...

This post has been edited by västergötland: Sep 24 2007, 11:32 AM

[Ian]

This is from the second chapter of Exalting His Word, after Shelley describes her struggle with Vertigo:

Drawing a deep breath, I uttered, “Help, Lord!” Again I made the agonizing effort, “Please, Father, help me.” Nothing more would come.

Suddenly I heard a still small voice. It wasn’t audible, it was more like thoughts being impressed upon my mind. Yet it was a voice, and I knew Who it was. God said, “I set before you life and death . . . choose life.” I have chosen life, Father. Jesus Christ is my Savior. If you mean anything more than that, You will have to explain it to me. I’m in no condition to figure it out.

He spoke again. “My Words are not idle words. My Word is life unto you. Anything that does not line up in agreement with My Word is nothing more than a pretentious lie of the enemy. If you choose to believe My Word, you choose life. If you doubt My Word—if you believe the deception of the evil one—you have chosen death.”

The Lord directed me to go to the Bible, seek out His promises related to healing and new beginnings, and hold fast to these. He instructed me to claim His promises, speaking His Word aloud daily. Faith comes by hearing.

An excerpt from the Wikipedia entry you (Ian) just posted:

Pentecostal Christians view Rhema as the voice of the Holy Spirit as it speaks to the believer at the present moment. In this sense, the Christian should be guided by the Holy Spirit as he/she is guided through inner feelings, impressions and experiences God's Rhema.

God has many ways to communicate, (as "Delford's SOP quote demonstrates) rhema is just one of them.Y ou seem to be equating the quote from Shelly Quinn to the pentacostal definition of Rhema, in order to imply that it is her definitionis also. Is that correct?

If so, I believe you are stretching here to make that comparison.

The problem with doing that as I see it, is that Shelley Quinn herself doesn't give your quote above as an example of rhema, nor does she define rhema as feelings, impressions or experiences. Every example she gives in her book of rhema is a specific passage of scripture. Logos being all of God's word, rhema being a singular and specific part of that Logos.

If I am wrong, I need to know, and want to know, so please provide a quote!

What I uncovered is of great interest.There are two Greek words, logos and rhema, which are often translated into English, simply as "Word." Was it possible, I wondered, that a deeper study of these two Greek words would increase my understanding? As I begn to dive into the study, I found a pearl of great value/

Rhema affirmations defined

It wasn't the scholarly definitions of those Greek words -- logos and rhema-- which facinated me most. Instead, it was the way scripture applied these words. As I reviewed every New Testament reference containing the English word word, and then checked the underlying Greek word, I began to see a fine distinction between the use of logos and rhema.

I believe the Holy Spirit inspired the choice of words penned by bible writers. There are subtle nuances in the application of these two Greek words. What I discovered helped me understand why affirming God's word.

Let me explain how I constructed the following definitions. In part, they were derived from multiple sources, including Vines expository dictionary of old and new testament words, Strong's concordance, Word meanings in the New Testament, and Word pictures in the New Testament.

An equally important component of my attempt to define these terms came from their distinctive applications within scripture.

.Logos (Greek, pronounouced "Log' -os") --translated-- Word (English)
The word Logos implies the sum of god's reveltion to humanity. It's vast unfolding of the reasoning and power of God.

Logos is the expression of His will and purposes. The entire content of the Bible is the “logos” Word of God, also referred to as the “Word of Life” in Philippians 2:16. Jesus is also called the Logos (“Word”) of God. In Christ, we find the perfected revelation of God to humanity.

Rhema (Greek, pronounced "Ray'-mah") --translated-- Word (English)
The word rhema implies a single item—a specific word spoken by God with an applied purpose, a word of God that has a practical and immediate function. A personal word of instruction from God is a “rhema” Word. For example, when Jesus told Simon to launch into the deep and cast out his fishing nets, he replied, “Master, we have toiled all night and caught nothing; nevertheless at Your word [rhema] I will let down the net” (Luke 5:5 NKJV).

In the next chapter a interesting pattern will develop that will make the differnce between these words more evident. The use of these words within scripture indicates that we can apply any instruction or promise of God -- any verse of the entire Bible (the "logos" Word) intended for God's corporate body of believers-- as a rhema word.

I think at this point we ought to say something and make our views known, and give the reasons why. as this relates to Seventh-day Adventism, and also as it relates to what is being broadcast on 3ABN, so the topic has relevance to this 3ABN forum.

So --
Do the readers and posters here agree or disagree with this definition? and, why, or why not?

Can we limit our input to biblical proof and evidence?

Let's get to the bottom of this, and find the truth, by studying like the Bereans to see if thee things are so.

Maybe after we can come to a consensus about how this is all defined, we can see if the rest of Shelley Quinn's book and her examples and what is being taought and broadcast on 3ABN as Adventist truth.is or is not in accord with the correct biblical definition, and usuage?

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 24 2007, 11:57 AM

[LaurenceD]

Ian...

Rhema and logos are simply Greek words that mean scripture, nothing else. Rhema means the spoken word, logos means the written word. The only written word of God we have are the original 10 Commandments written by the finger of God, and we don't have those today. Everything else has been written by man, but is called God's written word simply because we believe that's the case---we believe in direct inerrant inspiration from God through Man. When God speaks to us today, we say this is rhema...his spoken word, his utterence, even what we perceive to be the HS speaking to our hearts. Problem is, with the counterfiet firmly in place so that even the elect may be deceived, the only way one can tell if it the voice of God, or his counterfiet counterpart, is to see if it lines up with the logos, man's written word that we call the Word of God.

Here's an example: Suppose you're studying scripture and God is telling you that it's okay to drink wine so you can forget your troubles. You've heard otherwise. So you go look in in Proverbs 31 and that's exactly what it says. But then some self acclaimed human expert comes along and says that's not what it means at all. It means drink fresh juice and forget your troubles.

Conclusion: if you trust your own interpretation of Gods Word, it may not necessarily be so. If you trust Man's expert interpretation, you'll need to choose between experts.

[LaurenceD]

Laurence, with a modicum of fear and trembling (due to still having that sand in my sandles from my years in the wilderness) I will comment on the verses you brought up by incorporating into my answer a brief and fairly loose overview of what I learned this last weekend at a seminar given by Dr. Erylene Piper-Mandy.

Back in the mid-19th century, we began building a denominational road, paving it with the lovely yellow/golden bricks we found in the scriptures. These words, carefully interpreted and laid by our forefathers, became our perceived path to "heaven". For generations all were told that to be a part of the Remnant we needed to stay on this road. We were warned that if we didn't religiously follow every brick in this very road, which we proudly claimed to be The True Church, at the end of the journey we would be lost. But where does this road really lead? It may be a beautiful city, indeed, but if you peek behind the curtain, smoke and mirrors, you will find a mere man.

The real journey, as it turns out, is not toeing the line on the yellow brick road to Oz, or even the lovely SDA road itself, it is getting to really know, love and follow Jesus. We can't claim to be infallible in our interpretation of the scriptures, but we can follow the Infallible One who provided them for us. Who can show us the real way to reach heaven? I believe we can find the answer in John 14:1 - 7:

1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."
5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Peter came along and made it quite clear that the apostles and Jewish Christians of that early church were not the only ones who had received "the word of God".

Acts 11:1 - 3: 1 The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him 3 and said, "You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them."

Read the entire chapter. It makes it quite clear that the Gentiles represent more than just the non-Jews of the day. They represent every person and denomination on this planet who has an ear to hear the Creator. Each of the organized religions that they are a part of may also have received God's word. Trying to make our own denomination the exclusive holders of The Truth is an inherently bad idea.

This doesn't mean that there is not power in the scriptures, for there certainly is as is evidenced by these verses:

Hebrews 4:12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Ephesians 6:17, 18: 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

The difference is, if we believe we can use the scriptures to work and find our way to heaven, we are following the yellow brick road to Oz. They are, instead, to point us to Jesus, to who God is, and then we follow Him, even if it He steps off of our yellow brick road.

Good post, PB! I like the way your mind works.

[västergötland]

Rhema affirmations defined

It wasn't the scholarly definitions of those Greek words -- logos and rhema-- which facinated me most. Instead, it was the way scripture applied these words. As I reviewed every New Testament reference containing the English word word, and then checked the underlying Greek word, I began to see a fine distinction between the use of logos and rhema.

I believe the Holy Spirit inspired the choice of words penned by bible writers. There are subtle nuances in the application of these two Greek words. What I discovered helped me understand why affirming God's word.

Let me explain how I constructed the following definitions. In part, they were derived from multiple sources, including Vines expository dictionary of old and new testament words, Strong's concordance, Word meanings in the New Testament, and Word pictures in the New Testament.

An equally important component of my attempt to define these terms came from their distinctive applications within scripture.

.Logos (Greek, pronounouced "Log' -os") --translated-- Word (English)
The word Logos implies the [b]sum of god's reveltion to humanity. It's vast unfolding of the reasoning and power of God.
Logos is the expression of His will and purposes. The entire content of the Bible is the “logos” Word of God, also referred to as the “Word of Life” in Philippians 2:16. Jesus is also called the Logos (“Word”) of God. In Christ, we find the perfected revelation of God to humanity.

Rhema (Greek, pronounced "Ray'-mah") --translated-- Word (English)
The word rhema implies a single item—a specific word spoken by God with an applied purpose, a word of God that has a practical and immediate function. A personal word of instruction from God is a “rhema” Word. For example, when Jesus told Simon to launch into the deep and cast out his fishing nets, he replied, “Master, we have toiled all night and caught nothing; nevertheless at Your word [rhema] I will let down the net” (Luke 5:5 NKJV).

In the next chapter a interesting pattern will develop that will make the differnce between these words more evident. The use of these words within scripture indicates that we can apply any instruction or promise of God -- any verse of the entire Bible (the "logos" Word) intended for God's corporate body of believers-- as a rhema word.

I think the method described above for the word study is falty. If you want to know how the words Rhema and Logos are used, the right way to do about it would be to look for specifically those two words and see how they where translated and used. The method described here, to look for the english "word" and looking which word it was translated from is likely to miss many Rhema and Logos which where translated into other meanings.

This post has been edited by västergötland: Sep 24 2007, 12:22 PM

[Ian]

Can a forum admin remove this post, please?

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 24 2007, 02:05 PM

[PeacefulBe]

Good post, PB! I like the way your mind works.

Why thank you, Laurence (PB exclaims whilst tucking a few pesky pieces of straw back under her collar). Dr. Mandy did speak some amazing pearls this weekend for us to ponder.

[Ian]

I think the method described above for the word study is falty. If you want to know how the words Rhema and Logos are used, the right way to do about it would be to look for specifically those two words and see how they where translated and used.

That's what I did. Are you saying Mrs Quinn didn't? her examples seem to prove she did...

The method described here, to look for the english "word" and looking which word it was translated from is likely to miss many Rhema and Logos which where translated into other meanings.

I'm sorry. I tried, but I don't understand.

Can you explain it again, in another way, and give examples of what you are saying?

Thanks.

[princessdi]

Preach Gurl!!!!!

Laurence, with a modicum of fear and trembling (due to still having that sand in my sandles from my years in the wilderness) I will comment on the verses you brought up by incorporating into my answer a brief and fairly loose overview of what I learned this last weekend at a seminar given by Dr. Erylene Piper-Mandy.

Back in the mid-19th century, we began building a denominational road, paving it with the lovely yellow/golden bricks we found in the scriptures. These words, carefully interpreted and laid by our forefathers, became our perceived path to "heaven". For generations all were told that to be a part of the Remnant we needed to stay on this road. We were warned that if we didn't religiously follow every brick in this very road, which we proudly claimed to be The True Church, at the end of the journey we would be lost. But where does this road really lead? It may be a beautiful city, indeed, but if you peek behind the curtain, smoke and mirrors, you will find a mere man.

The real journey, as it turns out, is not toeing the line on the yellow brick road to Oz, or even the lovely SDA road itself, it is getting to really know, love and follow Jesus. We can't claim to be infallible in our interpretation of the scriptures, but we can follow the Infallible One who provided them for us. Who can show us the real way to reach heaven? I believe we can find the answer in John 14:1 - 7:

1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God; trust also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going."
5 Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Peter came along and made it quite clear that the apostles and Jewish Christians of that early church were not the only ones who had received "the word of God".

Acts 11:1 - 3: 1 The apostles and the brothers throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2 So when Peter went up to Jerusalem, the circumcised believers criticized him 3 and said, "You went into the house of uncircumcised men and ate with them."

Read the entire chapter. It makes it quite clear that the Gentiles represent more than just the non-Jews of the day. They represent every person and denomination on this planet who has an ear to hear the Creator. Each of the organized religions that they are a part of may also have received God's word. Trying to make our own denomination the exclusive holders of The Truth is an inherently bad idea.

This doesn't mean that there is not power in the scriptures, for there certainly is as is evidenced by these verses:

Hebrews 4:12For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

Ephesians 6:17, 18: 17 Take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God. 18 And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.

The difference is, if we believe we can use the scriptures to work and find our way to heaven, we are following the yellow brick road to Oz. They are, instead, to point us to Jesus, to who God is, and then we follow Him, even if it He steps off of our yellow brick road.

[västergötland]

That's what I did. Are you saying Mrs Quinn didn't? her examples seem to prove she did...

I dont know what Mrs Quinn did or did not do. What I do know, however, is that the bookpage you quoted claims that she did not. If her examples show something different, dont know anything about that either.

I'm sorry. I tried, but I don't understand.

Can you explain it again, in another way, and give examples of what you are saying?

Thanks.

Ok. The biblegateway KJV finds the word "word" 287 times in the NT. Blueletterbibles Strongs concordance finds "Logos" 330 times in the bible and "Rhema" is found 70 times.

Thus "word" appears 113 fewer times than Logos and Rhema together.

In the book of Matthew KJV the english word "word" occurs 24 times. Of these, 16 where Logos, 5 where Rhema, 2 where Apaggellō and one was Eipon.

The word Logos appears 31 times in the book of Matthew KJV. Of these, 16 times it is translated word, 9 times as sayings, 2 times as account and one time each as "reckoneth, for the cause, communication, thing, talk".

The word Rhema appears 6 times in the book of Matthew KJV. Of these 5 times it is translated word and one time as "of evil".

So, if one uses the research method which the quoted page from Mrs Quinn's book claims she used, one will find 24 hits in the book of matthew out of which 16 will be Logos and 5 Rhema. One will in the same book miss Logos 15 times and Rhema one time.

This swift look did not include any larger study of how the words are used. I did however notice two examples of Logos used in situations where I would not have expected it if the Logos-Rhema distinction exists. This following verse is an example of where Jesus performs a miracle and where this is described with the word Logos. In the second verse, blasphemy is also Logos.

Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with [his] word ^3056(logos), and healed all that were sick:

Mat 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word(logos) against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

[awesumtenor]

I dont know what Mrs Quinn did or did not do. What I do know, however, is that the bookpage you quoted claims that she did not. If her examples show something different, dont know anything about that either.
Ok. The biblegateway KJV finds the word "word" 287 times in the NT. Blueletterbibles Strongs concordance finds "Logos" 330 times in the bible and "Rhema" is found 70 times.

Thus "word" appears 113 fewer times than Logos and Rhema together.

In the book of Matthew KJV the english word "word" occurs 24 times. Of these, 16 where Logos, 5 where Rhema, 2 where Apaggellō and one was Eipon.

The word Logos appears 31 times in the book of Matthew KJV. Of these, 16 times it is translated word, 9 times as sayings, 2 times as account and one time each as "reckoneth, for the cause, communication, thing, talk".

The word Rhema appears 6 times in the book of Matthew KJV. Of these 5 times it is translated word and one time as "of evil".

So, if one uses the research method which the quoted page from Mrs Quinn's book claims she used, one will find 24 hits in the book of matthew out of which 16 will be Logos and 5 Rhema. One will in the same book miss Logos 15 times and Rhema one time.

This swift look did not include any larger study of how the words are used. I did however notice two examples of Logos used in situations where I would not have expected it if the Logos-Rhema distinction exists. This following verse is an example of where Jesus performs a miracle and where this is described with the word Logos. In the second verse, blasphemy is also Logos.

Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with [his] word ^3056(logos), and healed all that were sick:

Mat 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word(logos) against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

Today, my young padewan a jedi is become... strong against the dark side, he is... hmmm



In His service,
Mr. J

[LaurenceD]

Has anyone considered what Quinn's term "affirmation" means...as in rhema affirmation, or scripture affirmation? I thought the following was interesting, taken from wikipedia....

New Thought Affirmations In New Thought and personal development, an affirmation is a form of autosuggestion in which a statement of a desirable intention or condition of the world or the mind is deliberately meditated on and/or repeated in order to implant it in the mind. Many believers recommend accompanying recitations with mental visualization of a desired outcome. Affirmation could be viewed positively as a mobilization of one's inner resources. For example, believers would consider "I Am making more room in my life for success every day" a much wiser affirmation than "I will win the lottery today!" Affirmations are always phrased in the first person and usually in a present tense ("I Am") rather than a future tense ("I will") in order to increase the realization of the statement for the affirmation.Affirmations are believed to be a very powerful means of reprogramming the subjective mind. They appear to be most effective when repeated in a quiet and restful state of mind and body, and when the desired outcome is vividly experienced in one's mind and resulting emotions are felt.

Autosuggestion (or the related autogenic training) is a process by which an individual trains the subconscious mind to believe something, or systematically schematizes the person's own mental associations, usually for a given purpose. This is accomplished through self-hypnosis methods or repetitive, constant self-affirmations, and may be seen as a form of self-induced brainwashing. The acceptance of autosuggestion may be quickened through mental visualization of that which the individual would like to believe. Its success is typically correlated with the consistency of its use and the length of time over which it is used. Autosuggestion can be seen as an aspect of prayer, self-exhorting "pep talks", meditation, and other similar activities. A trivial example of self-improvement by autosuggestion is the New Year's resolution, especially if it is followed up by systematic attention to the resolution.

Autosuggestion is most commonly accomplished by presenting (either through caressing or bombarding) one's mind with repetitive thoughts (negative or positive), until those thoughts become internalized. Practitioners typically hope to transmute thoughts into beliefs, and even into actualities. Visualizing the manifestations of a belief, verbally affirming it, and thinking it using one's "internal voice", are typical means of influencing one's mind via repetitive autosuggestion. Autosuggestion is normally thought of as a deliberate tool, but it can also refer to an unintentional process.

[SoulEspresso]

That's what I did. Are you saying Mrs Quinn didn't? her examples seem to prove she did...
I'm sorry. I tried, but I don't understand.

Can you explain it again, in another way, and give examples of what you are saying?

Thanks.

An excerpt from the Wikipedia entry you (Ian) just posted:
God has many ways to communicate, (as "Delford's SOP quote demonstrates) rhema is just one of them.Y ou seem to be equating the quote from Shelly Quinn to the pentacostal definition of Rhema, in order to imply that it is her definition is also. Is that correct?

If so, I believe you are stretching here to make that comparison.

The problem with doing that as I see it, is that Shelley Quinn herself doesn't give your quote above as an example of rhema, nor does she define rhema as feelings, impressions or experiences. Every example she gives in her book of rhema is a specific passage of scripture. Logos being all of God's word, rhema being a singular and specific part of that Logos.

If I am wrong, I need to know, and want to know, so please provide a quote!

I don't have the book. I have to work with the online excerpts. IOW I can't provide a quote other than what I did. It seemed to me from the example Ms. Quinn wrote (regarding her vertigo) that the "Word" or "rhema" she received was a thought or impression, which is how Wikipedia (as written by a probable Word-of-Faith editor) in part defines rhema. Just because the word she received was paraphrased from Scripture (and of course devoid of Scriptural context) doesn't mean that it wasn't a thought or impression!

In some respects the jury is still out for me, as I'm deliberately trying to reserve judgment as long as I can. Here's what I've got:

My own Bible study using UBS GNT 3/4 in Bibleworks 4.0, underscored by what vastergotland posted from his research, inclines me to believe that the distinction between rhema and logos is artificial. They're different ways of saying the same thing and are interchangeable words--based on their usage in Scripture.

Ms. Quinn makes a distinction between the two words; so to the Word-of-Faith adherents. Based on the usage of rhema and logos in Scripture, I believe they are wrong. Not evil, not pernicious, not false brethren--just incorrect. So far the only other people I've run into on the Internet who make a distinction between the two words are people who are arguing against Word-of-Faith thinking.

I think at this point we ought to say something and make our views known, and give the reasons why. as this relates to Seventh-day Adventism, and also as it relates to what is being broadcast on 3ABN, so the topic has relevance to this 3ABN forum.

So --
Do the readers and posters here agree or disagree with this definition? and, why, or why not?

Can we limit our input to biblical proof and evidence?

If it's important to you, I think you should replicate vastergotland's research for yourself and see how the Bible uses the words--not how external authors, Ms. Quinn or anyone else or even Bible dictionaries, define the words. (This is important because even Kittel's encyclopedic dictionary has mistakes in it; none are infallible; and some dictionaries have agendas.) Take Strong's or the websites he mentioned; look at how the Bible uses each of the words. It will take awhile because they're quite common, but maybe you'll at least see what some of us are saying whether or not you choose to agree.

Please take this in a spirit of encouragement. I've posted this in repetitive fashion for clarity's sake, not because I'm upset or anything.

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Sep 25 2007, 09:33 AM

[Ian]

I dont know what Mrs Quinn did or did not do. What I do know, however, is that the bookpage you quoted claims that she did not. If her examples show something different, dont know anything about that either.
Ok. The biblegateway KJV finds the word "word" 287 times in the NT. Blueletterbibles Strongs concordance finds "Logos" 330 times in the bible and "Rhema" is found 70 times.

Thus "word" appears 113 fewer times than Logos and Rhema together.

In the book of Matthew KJV the english word "word" occurs 24 times. Of these, 16 where Logos, 5 where Rhema, 2 where Apaggellō and one was Eipon.

The word Logos appears 31 times in the book of Matthew KJV. Of these, 16 times it is translated word, 9 times as sayings, 2 times as account and one time each as "reckoneth, for the cause, communication, thing, talk".

The word Rhema appears 6 times in the book of Matthew KJV. Of these 5 times it is translated word and one time as "of evil".

So, if one uses the research method which the quoted page from Mrs Quinn's book claims she used, one will find 24 hits in the book of matthew out of which 16 will be Logos and 5 Rhema. One will in the same book miss Logos 15 times and Rhema one time.

This swift look did not include any larger study of how the words are used. I did however notice two examples of Logos used in situations where I would not have expected it if the Logos-Rhema distinction exists. This following verse is an example of where Jesus performs a miracle and where this is described with the word Logos. In the second verse, blasphemy is also Logos.

Mat 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with [his] word ^3056(logos), and healed all that were sick:

Mat 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word(logos) against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.

I understand what you are saying now.

I use blueletter to find the underlying Greek or Hebrew words, the definitions by thayer that are given with the Strongs numbers, and then study their usuage and how translated into English myself.

Of course I usually start with the English words.

I think that is what Mrs Quinn meant when she said she looked up the word, word, but she also said she did a study of the Greek words Logos and Rhema, and as I said before her examples include some that aren't translated into English as word. Perhaps she could have explained a little better?

But anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to explain what you meant, sometimes I can be a bit slow.

Thank you.