Rhema: The Basic Belief Of The "word Of Faith Movement"..., How does it relate to Adventism? Options

[LaurenceD]

Quick clarification:

"The Father and Son alone are to be exalted" -EGW, SD p.58

This quote isn't found in Quinn's book. I simply posted it for contrast.

[PeacefulBe]

Laurence,

I believe what you have is the original style study guide. When I bought my copy some months back, if I remember correctly, it was called a study guide as well. The Exalting His Word series on 3abn had graphics much as you describe on your cover.

So, is it appropriate to fuse the Bible "word" and Christ "Word"? Are they interchangable? I tried to find the Hebrew for both word as scripture and word as God as found in Psalm138:2, but have not been successful in the comparison. I went to John 1:1 to at least find out what the Greek word is that is used for this verse that obviously ties the word and Christ together. This is the Greek translation of the verse on an apologetics site:

John 1:1 in a literal translation reads thus: "In beginning was the word, and the word was with the God, and God was the word." Notice that it says "God was the word." This is the actual word for word translation. It is not saying that "a god was the word." That wouldn't make sense. Let me break it down into three statements.

"In beginning was the word..."
(en arche en ho logos)
A very simple statement that the Word was in the beginning.
"and the word was with the God..."
(kai ho logos en pros ton theon)
This same Word was with God.
"and God was the word." -- Properly translated as "and the Word was God."
(kai theos en ho logos)
This same Word was God.

Logos is used both as word and as Christ. Interesting that it speaks of Christ, the word, in the beginning as logos and not rhema.

So Ms Quinn does ask things in Jesus name but does mention the use of repetitive affirmations.

[SoulEspresso]

This is why I posted earlier that the Bible contains and describes God's Word. The Bible itself is not and should not be equated with God's word. There are only two texts in the whole thing that even hint at it, and even then those statements fall well within the possibility of this premise.

The danger of calling the Bible God's Word is exactly this problem. Jesus is the Living Word. All of God's declarations find reality in Him. But He can't be carried around in a leather cover. That's bibliolatry, and I worry about it based on the subtitle of Quinn's book.

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Sep 25 2007, 10:48 PM

[princessdi]

Preach!!!

This is why I posted earlier that the Bible contains and describes God's Word. The Bible itself is not and should not be equated with God's word. There are only two texts in the whole thing that even hint at it, and even then those statements fall well within the possibility of this premise.

The danger of calling the Bible God's Word is exactly this problem. Jesus is the Living Word. All of God's declarations find reality in Him. But He can't be carried around in a leather cover.

[LaurenceD]

Laurence,

I believe what you have is the original style study guide. When I bought my copy some months back, if I remember correctly, it was called a study guide as well. The Exalting His Word series on 3abn had graphics much as you describe on your cover.

So, is it appropriate to fuse the Bible "word" and Christ "Word"? Are they interchangable? I tried to find the Hebrew for both word as scripture and word as God as found in Psalm138:2, but have not been successful in the comparison. I went to John 1:1 to at least find out what the Greek word is that is used for this verse that obviously ties the word and Christ together. This is the Greek translation of the verse on an apologetics site:
Logos is used both as word and as Christ. Interesting that it speaks of Christ, the word, in the beginning as logos and not rhema.

So Ms Quinn does ask things in Jesus name but does mention the use of repetitive affirmations.

I just finished reading all 9 chapters in that book, plus the appendix--her earlier book written and published in 1999 (her first affirmations were compiled and circulated in 1996)

Appendix...
Index--Life Affirmations from Scripture
Instructions--Life Affirmations
Life Affirmations from Scripture

This book is everything roxe said it was. Feel free to ask any question. I'll verify with quote and page.

For starters, her rhema style is to turn the logos scripture into rhemas. You take any written word and modify it to your personal use, say it out loud--because hearing your voice say it will give you faith and give you the similation of God speaking to you. She calls it praying God's Word back to him. She calls this a practice she discoverd in 1996 but didn't develop until later. Here's the instructions from the appendix. I'm abreviating all this for now and not changing a thing or adding to...

This is what she's calling Rhema (making Logos your own living Rhema)

Instructions:

Speak Life Affirmations from Scripture out loud. called the living voice

1. Devote 30 minutes meditate (on God's word)

2. Begin with prayer Ask him to teach you his will. Speak affirmations (Rhema) along with prayer. Reherse (yes, she uses that word. Experience sudden spontaneous outbursts.

3. Speak the Affirmations and supporting Scriptures aloud. You'll be returning God's word to him. Sense that you're hearing the voice of God.

4 Re-speak the affirmations after saying the scripture. Change the wording (she inserts the word "rhema" in front of "word" with texts that include "word," plus praphrases scripture. (she emphasizes using the words "I Am"--as you may have noted in the wiki definition of "Affirmation" I provided earlier.

5. Conclude with prayer and prasie Thank God for watching over hHis Word to perform it. Thank Him for making known the end from the beginning. Most of all, thank him that he calls things that are not as though they already were.

6. Be consistent You'll feel uneasy at first about speaking the promises in Affirmation form. You'll hear your living voice.

7. Repeat When you've completed this entire segment, simply start over again. It will become more alive.

[LaurenceD]

This is why I posted earlier that the Bible contains and describes God's Word. The Bible itself is not and should not be equated with God's word. There are only two texts in the whole thing that even hint at it, and even then those statements fall well within the possibility of this premise.

The danger of calling the Bible God's Word is exactly this problem. Jesus is the Living Word. All of God's declarations find reality in Him. But He can't be carried around in a leather cover. That's bibliolatry, and I worry about it based on the subtitle of Quinn's book.

SQ says the Logos (sheath) contains the rhema (sword).

[roxe]

Thanks LD! So glad you have that older version!

It would be interesting for you and peaceful to perhaps start comparing the versions...
to see if any wording has been changed.

[LaurenceD]

Thanks LD! So glad you have that older version!

It would be interesting for you and peaceful to perhaps start comparing the versions...
to see if any wording has been changed.

I've already noticed some specific differences from the online version. The online version has gaps...or missing sentences. Maybe unintentional though...due to book sampling.

[SoulEspresso]

For starters, her rhema style is to turn the logos scripture into rhemas. You take any written word and modify it to your personal use, say it out loud--because hearing your voice say it will give you faith and give you the similation of God speaking to you. She calls it praying God's Word back to him. She calls this a practice she discoverd in 1996 but didn't develop until later. Here's the instructions from the appendix. I'm abreviating all this for now and not changing a thing or adding to...

This is what she's calling Rhema (making Logos your own living Rhema)

Instructions:

Speak Life Affirmations from Scripture out loud. called the living voice

1. Devote 30 minutes meditate (on God's word)

2. Begin with prayer Ask him to teach you his will. Speak affirmations (Rhema) along with prayer. Reherse (yes, she uses that word. Experience sudden spontaneous outbursts.

3. Speak the Affirmations and supporting Scriptures aloud. You'll be returning God's word to him. Sense that you're hearing the voice of God.

4 Re-speak the affirmations after saying the scripture. Change the wording (she inserts the word "rhema" in front of "word" with texts that include "word," plus praphrases scripture. (she emphasizes using the words "I Am"--as you may have noted in the wiki definition of "Affirmation" I provided earlier.

5. Conclude with prayer and prasie Thank God for watching over hHis Word to perform it. Thank Him for making known the end from the beginning. Most of all, thank him that he calls things that are not as though they already were.

6. Be consistent You'll feel uneasy at first about speaking the promises in Affirmation form. You'll hear your living voice.

7. Repeat When you've completed this entire segment, simply start over again. It will become more alive.

Great shades of the Kaballah ...

[LaurenceD]

Great shades of the Kaballah ...

Not only that, compare the wikipedia definition of "Affirmation" again. I saw many similarities as I read SQ's book. I haven't posted most of them...yet...but believe me, they're there.

New Thought Affirmations In New Thought and personal development, an affirmation is a form of autosuggestion in which a statement of a desirable intention or condition of the world or the mind is deliberately meditated on and/or repeated in order to implant it in the mind. Many believers recommend accompanying recitations with mental visualization of a desired outcome. Affirmation could be viewed positively as a mobilization of one's inner resources. For example, believers would consider "I Am making more room in my life for success every day" a much wiser affirmation than "I will win the lottery today!" Affirmations are always phrased in the first person and usually in a present tense ("I Am") rather than a future tense ("I will") in order to increase the realization of the statement for the affirmation. Affirmations are believed to be a very powerful means of reprogramming the subjective mind. They appear to be most effective when repeated in a quiet and restful state of mind and body, and when the desired outcome is vividly experienced in one's mind and resulting emotions are felt.

Autosuggestion (or the related autogenic training) is a process by which an individual trains the subconscious mind to believe something, or systematically schematizes the person's own mental associations, usually for a given purpose. This is accomplished through self-hypnosis methods or repetitive, constant self-affirmations, and may be seen as a form of self-induced brainwashing. The acceptance of autosuggestion may be quickened through mental visualization of that which the individual would like to believe. Its success is typically correlated with the consistency of its use and the length of time over which it is used. Autosuggestion can be seen as an aspect of prayer, self-exhorting "pep talks", meditation, and other similar activities.

Autosuggestion is most commonly accomplished by presenting (either through caressing or bombarding) one's mind with repetitive thoughts (negative or positive), until those thoughts become internalized. Practitioners typically hope to transmute thoughts into beliefs, and even into actualities. Visualizing the manifestations of a belief, verbally affirming it, and thinking it using one's "internal voice", are typical means of influencing one's mind via repetitive autosuggestion. Autosuggestion is normally thought of as a deliberate tool, but it can also refer to an unintentional process.

[Ian]

Another duplicate post removed.

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 26 2007, 06:09 PM

[princessdi]

She has got to be kidding! No. 2 is really killin' me. What happened to good old ask, knock, come in faith, come boldy before The Throne of Grace. Is not what the Bible says good enough? Why do we need instruction from SQ about anything, especially whento "experience sudden sponstaneous outbursts"

I just finished reading all 9 chapters in that book, plus the appendix--her earlier book written and published in 1999 (her first affirmations were compiled and circulated in 1996)

Appendix...
Index--Life Affirmations from Scripture
Instructions--Life Affirmations
Life Affirmations from Scripture

This book is everything roxe said it was. Feel free to ask any question. I'll verify with quote and page.

For starters, her rhema style is to turn the logos scripture into rhemas. You take any written word and modify it to your personal use, say it out loud--because hearing your voice say it will give you faith and give you the similation of God speaking to you. She calls it praying God's Word back to him. She calls this a practice she discoverd in 1996 but didn't develop until later. Here's the instructions from the appendix. I'm abreviating all this for now and not changing a thing or adding to...

This is what she's calling Rhema (making Logos your own living Rhema)

Instructions:

Speak Life Affirmations from Scripture out loud. called the living voice

1. Devote 30 minutes meditate (on God's word)

2. Begin with prayer Ask him to teach you his will. Speak affirmations (Rhema) along with prayer. Reherse (yes, she uses that word. Experience sudden spontaneous outbursts.

3. Speak the Affirmations and supporting Scriptures aloud. You'll be returning God's word to him. Sense that you're hearing the voice of God.

4 Re-speak the affirmations after saying the scripture. Change the wording (she inserts the word "rhema" in front of "word" with texts that include "word," plus praphrases scripture. (she emphasizes using the words "I Am"--as you may have noted in the wiki definition of "Affirmation" I provided earlier.

5. Conclude with prayer and prasie Thank God for watching over hHis Word to perform it. Thank Him for making known the end from the beginning. Most of all, thank him that he calls things that are not as though they already were.

6. Be consistent You'll feel uneasy at first about speaking the promises in Affirmation form. You'll hear your living voice.

7. Repeat When you've completed this entire segment, simply start over again. It will become more alive.

[Ian]

Ian,

Thank you for taking the time to make this connection with one of the people connected to the ati site. It adds another interesting layer to this study.

I did a bit of research on Bil Gothard, since I am not familiar with the man.

Wikipedia article about Bill Gothard

He is quite obviously of the conservative variety, and I find his concern about the powers of Cabbage Patch Kids and Troll Dolls a bit on the "odd" side, but what really piques my interest is that he pins "rhema" to after Christ's resurrection. Now, I'm almost positive that the word "rhema" shows up before the resurrection.

The Wikipedia article about rhema has the definition and then gives a list of examples of the use of the word, including many early in Matthew.:

Rhema (ρημα) Greek ; an utterance (indiv., collect. or spec.); by implication a matter or 'topic' (esp. of narration, command or dispute). From the primary verb Rheo (ρηω) to flow or run , as water; and the suffix ma(μα) , a finite dispensation or portion (eg. "charis", grace ; but "charisma", a portion of grace, (spiritual) gift, etc. From Strong's Exhaustive Concordance, Greek word #4487. It can be found in the following New Testament passages (not exhaustive):

Matthew 4:4 "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." (also Luke 4:4)
Matthew 12:36 *Matthew 12:36 "... every idle word that men shall speak, they shall render account for it on the day of judgment..."
Matthew 18:16 "...by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word ( NIV- matter ) may be established."

---------------------------------

It appears that Gothard is making "rhemas" mean something entirely different than a Greek word for "word", that has nothing to do with whether it is a "rhema" or a "logos" word, but instead when it occurs and how it is understood. Yes, another layer to the onion, indeed.

Thank you for your comments and thoughts.

I did some research on the man also after the link to his website was posted here, as I had never heard of him until then. I read the same wiki article.

Thus my statement in an earlier post, that I don't agree with all that he teaches.

I was mainly trying to determine if the definition he gave was Pentecostal or not, and if not what was the difference. He didn't say much, but seemed to indicate his view was not Pentacostal.

My conclusions at this point tend to be, that as in other topics. Pentacostals?Charismatics tend to put The voice of the Holy Spirit above the bible and believe in extra biblical revelation and such.

Rhema to them is not just the biblical word, it is The voice of the Holy Spirit apart from that, or even the voice and teaching of a minister or other individual.

I'm not quite sure at this point what the main difference is between what Mr Gothard teaches and what Shelley Quinn does, but it is not extrabiblical.

What they both seem to have in common is that the Rhema word is a word of scripture.

As far as the example he gave, from the explanation on the institute page on Rhema (which he founded) and the explanation on his his personal web page, I don't think he was saying rhema only occured after Christ rose from the dead, I think he was explaining the difference between hearing the word (Logos) and then taking a specific part of that word and by the Holy Spirit understanding and applying it.(rhema)

Don't know if that is correct or not, but that's my thoughts on it so far.

[Ian]

Thanks, Peaceful.

Whoever said Shelly Quinn's book, Exalting His Word, with a picture of her on the cover, and copyrighted in 2006--was her first and only book is wrong. I have a copy of an earlier edition, copyrighted in 2003. This book is a loose leaf binder, 11" x 8½" paper cover with a picture of waterfalls and forest on the front, along with the title, Exalting His Word. The subtitle says, "With Life Affirmations from Scripture"

This is very helpful, Laurence.

It was me who said that to the best of my knowledge the version copy righted and published by Pacific Press in 2006was the only version. I couldn't find a reference to any other version online when I searched.

I suspect the book you have was printed in 2003 and is a study guide to go along with her program.

Can you see if it's printed by 3 Angels broadcasting network, and if it's actually copy righted? The reason I am asking is because I don't think materials printed by 3ABN are usually copy righted, as they have a statement on their website that they can be freely distributed.

Also I am curious. How many pages are in it? I am wondering if the later book is not a expanded version of the study guide, and I am also wondering what the differences are.

Can you compare the table of contents in your version to this one, and tell us if there are any differences?





Thank you.

This post has been edited by Ian: Sep 26 2007, 09:57 AM

[roxe]

As line upon line and precept upon precept of the divine Word are opened before you, take heed how you hear. If the principles of our faith are accepted, new impressions will be made, new lines of work will be seen in our practise. If we give to the searching of the Scriptures a divided heart, we shall received superficial impressions, which will quickly pass away. If we listen to the Word without giving it entrance to the heart, we shall be classed among the forgetful hearers. Only he remembers to do God's will who makes a decided confession of faith, showing to all that his faith is an active, working agency,--a faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {YI, September 1, 1898 par. 7}
Students, take heed how you hear. The messages of God's word will not return to him void. They are to each a savor of life unto life or of death unto death. After hearing the word, we are no longer in the same position before God as before the light came. If we receive the light, and act upon it, we shall understand the scripture: "I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name." {YI, September 1, 1898 par. 8}

Are the words underlined above in bold perhaps being misunderstood by the world?
Does God really need us to speak His word back to Him, over and over?
Are we to change the wording of scripture into our own words because God needs our interpretation?
Are we to try to force His hand by our "I AM" demands?
Are we to get His attention through our "experience (of) sudden spontaneous outbursts"?


Or do we say "I believe it; it is so. Not because I feel it, but because God has promised."
And go about our business knowing that God will answer in His good timing; and content to leave it there.