Ministry Or Business, When does ministry stop being ministry? Options

[Skyhook]

It is also true that not every pastor or every person necessarily has the gift of thrift or is good and wise at managing their money and resources. I know people who made way less than myself, for example, and have a lot more to show for it. I know a pastor who lives in a trailer park in a metropolitan area because he could not afford to buy even a run down house in that area, but he is able to travel a lot, often overseas. Sometimes he is on denominational business and sometimes not. He prides himself on being frugal and very careful with his money.

I know another person who is a lay pastor of a large church in a major city who (the last I heard) refuses to accept a salary and regular conference employment. I am not sure what reason he gives the conference but I know he can make more than a pastor by working only a few days a month (and I mean few) at the profession he was trained at.

This post has been edited by Skyhook: Nov 27 2007, 08:34 PM

[Richard Sherwin]

Sorry I wasn't offended, I should have put a smiley after my comment. But yes you are right I don't think they get paid inadequately. And one thing a teacher can do if they want higher pay is to go into the public school system. That would be a touch harder for a preacher I suppose

From my parents on down I'd guess that 20 or so of us have worked in some capacity for the church, and while of course being humans we would have always liked a raise, we always thought the church was fair in our compensation, especially when it came to benefits. And one thing the church offers that corporate America many times cannot is job security. It's rare for a church worker to get laid off but it's very common for companies to down size for what ever reason.

I just think that compared to the rest of the world the church is a pretty good employer.

Good grief. I surely was not trying to insinuate that you don't know what you are talking about.

I was simply offering my opinion that I do not think SDA teachers are adequately compensated based on my own experiences. You are certainly free to disagree, which you obviously do.

[Pickle]

Yes, I recall the point that the Adventist church was unique in that all workers were paid at the same relative level regardless of position. It was a pretty revolutionary approach that apparently is no longer, if ever, true. The sheeple are learning and those hidden benefits of power will not be hidden forever.

I think to paint the Adventist Health system as a ministry and the administrators as "workers" is laughable. The church lost control of the health system back under Neal Wilson's watch. We have hundreds of healthcare executive "workers" pulling down six and seven figure salaries before benefits. While Adventists don't have a corner on corporate non-profit greed, I'm truly ashamed that as a church we allow this type of abuse to continue. Believe me, none of these administrators are any more qualified than some of our truly committed pastors.

How did we get here?



-bear

Maybe we got here because of unbelief and retreat. We were here before, listened to the prophet's counsel, improved, and now have retreated. I speak of the old days when doctors were making a lot, and then voluntarily reduced their wages to bring them into line with the counsel we were given.

A side note on a nice benefit preachers get called the parsonage exclusion: If done correctly, what a pastor pays for rent or mortgage, utilities, furnishings, and such, up to a pre-determined figure, is deducted off of his W-2 income, and thus isn't taxable. But if he has to pay into social security, then he has to add that back and pay 13% or 15% or whatever it currently is of that, as well as on the rest of his income. (He's an employee for income tax purposes and self-employed for social security purposes.)

I think another benefit is if the preacher puts out money for evangelism or some such, he could count that as a business expense.

On the down side, a preacher with kids in school, while he may get a subsidy to cover those costs, the subsidy doesn't cover the increased taxes he will have to pay because he received the subsidy.

[Pickle]

I wish that the GC would pay the Pastors what they are paying those high up execs who work at the GC building in Silver Springs....

Don't know what they get paid, but some commute I think two hours one way so they can live someplace that doesn't cost so high. Others live closer and have to pay more for housing. I hear it's an expensive place to be.

[Richard Sherwin]

If the subsidy didn't cover the tax increase then they should refuse it. However you can't get taxed more than you make (though I'm sure someone can show an exception to that) and I've never heard of a conference employee turning them down on that basis. With two kids at Andrews I sure wish I had them now.

Maybe we got here because of unbelief and retreat. We were here before, listened to the prophet's counsel, improved, and now have retreated. I speak of the old days when doctors were making a lot, and then voluntarily reduced their wages to bring them into line with the counsel we were given.

A side note on a nice benefit preachers get called the parsonage exclusion: If done correctly, what a pastor pays for rent or mortgage, utilities, furnishings, and such, up to a pre-determined figure, is deducted off of his W-2 income, and thus isn't taxable. But if he has to pay into social security, then he has to add that back and pay 13% or 15% or whatever it currently is of that, as well as on the rest of his income. (He's an employee for income tax purposes and self-employed for social security purposes.)

I think another benefit is if the preacher puts out money for evangelism or some such, he could count that as a business expense.

On the down side, a preacher with kids in school, while he may get a subsidy to cover those costs, the subsidy doesn't cover the increased taxes he will have to pay because he received the subsidy.

[Preacher's Kid]

Don't know what they get paid, but some commute I think two hours one way so they can live someplace that doesn't cost so high. Others live closer and have to pay more for housing. I hear it's an expensive place to be.

I lived in Maryland for a few years and the cost of living is high up there. I mean really high, a lot of the workers do live in VA and travel to the GC building but that's pretty normal in that area, a lot of folks live in VA and travel to DC or Maryland each morning for work.

[Preacher's Kid]

So how come no one raises a stink on behalf of the pastors? Start a pastors union to get higher wages....you know im jess starting something...

Because the REAL pastors are not complaining... and the truth is not being told about the difference between the wage scale of pastors and administrators.

You have to understand that for a lot of these Pastors what are they going to do if they raise a stink and the conference fires them over it? A lot of them feel privileged in a way to even have their job as a Pastor considering plenty of kids graduate from Oakwood, CUC, Andrews etc and never get hired. They don't exactly graduate with a degree that can be used doing anything else. A Masters in Divinity isn't going to help outside of ministry. Once again I say how many people would be happy with making between 30,000-40,000 dollars and you have a PHD in your field?

[Johann]

You have to understand that for a lot of these Pastors what are they going to do if they raise a stink and the conference fires them over it? A lot of them feel privileged in a way to even have their job as a Pastor considering plenty of kids graduate from Oakwood, CUC, Andrews etc and never get hired. They don't exactly graduate with a degree that can be used doing anything else. A Masters in Divinity isn't going to help outside of ministry. Once again I say how many people would be happy with making between 30,000-40,000 dollars and you have a PHD in your field?

There may be more or less openings at different times. In my days you were happy to get a job in a one-room church school somewhere out in the sticks, officially teaching while doing a lot of church work in your spare time until someone noticed your abilities. I taught for a couple of years before returning for graduate work only with my wife's help. Then I was offered an internship for a few months until there was a district vacant. While doing graduate work I was offered jobs elsewhere with much greater earning potentials, but it was unthinkable not to follow what I knew was my call, regardless of the pay offered.

I had the privilege of serving on the committee where the annual wages were determined about one forth of the time I worked for the Church. We always invited some laymen to participate in determining what the wages should be. I recall their amazement over what small wages we received, but we pointed put that we did not need money for cigarettes and alcohol!!!

[GRAT]

I don't know if things have changed but 30 + years ago when I was in boarding academy some teachers(not just one or two) would point out how much more they could make if they taught in public school. It used to make me quite angry because my father was a public school teacher with 4 children in church school, for a couple of years 3 in academy at one time. I went to academy with very few cloths, most of them hand-me-downs or thrift shop finds. (you couldn't find the good stuff you can find today back then) The children of these poor giving up so much to serve the Lord teachers wore the latest from Nordstrom. Don't get me wrong, you'd have to pay me much more than any teacher, public or private, makes to do that job. I was just kind of surprised at the response I had to the teacher pay issue all these years later.

[Shepherdswife]

Our pastors and conference workers are our equivalent in our mindset to priests and nuns, and for some reason need to live on near poverty. Where we differ is that we expect our pastors to support a family, including being vegetarian or vegan(that food has ALWAYS been sky high, send their children to "our" schools, with a slight discount, keep a decent house for company, keep a decent car for travelling to visit member, smeetings, etc., nobody better not be ragedy, be available 24/7, and require extensive education( which we should) that no one here on this board with the same education would even consider the salery they receive.

I have been away and just found this topic and wanted to throw in my personal experience. I think some valid observations have been made. It really does depend on where you live. In some areas of the country, we made way more than any of our members. Other areas, we could not have afforded to move there while we had small kids--we were committed to me staying home with them during those years.

I have no complaints as to the salary we have had. The health benefits are excellent, the discount to our academy and colleges I have found to be way more than slight, and as Bob stated, the parsonage exclusion and business expense deductions have meant low taxes for us. And yes, we took a huge hit when the subsidies kicked in--paying tax on the suddenly higher tax bracket was something I had not reckoned on, but we are still ahead over not having the subsidy. We have been able to purchase homes--mostly fixer-uppers, which helped us gain equity as well, one of which appreciated significantly in value (the others did not, but we didn't lose on them), and we have lived pretty much debt free except for the mortgage.

That said, we have driven older cars with high miles, shopped for food in bulk, bought clothes at resale shops, grown some of our food, etc. But that fits the lifestyle we have chosen. We could have spent a lot more for cars, but would not have been able to do some of the other things we have chosen, like taking our kids with us on a Reformation History Tour to Europe with a group of pastors. In my opinion, the cost of living increase they give for a more expensive area in no way covers the increase. Housing is the biggest difference, but that ends up being a large part of a families expenses. I wish they had a way to better compensate for that difference.

And yes, advanced degrees often mean bigger salaries, but as someone else pointed out, an MDiv is not very useful in most job searches. Even a DMin is not going to get you a huge salary right off, just because you have it, in most places.

Someone else made the point about JM and putting everything you have into a ministry, and growing it up, and deserving the rewards of that. I have no problem with people making money--I just would like to see accountability and transparency. (Not saying that JMM does not have it--I have no knowledge one way or another, just commenting on the philosophy.)

Shepherdswife

[princessdi]

More like they have been "conditioned" to believe that real or true pastors MUST make that sacrifice. taht is striaght up fromt he RCC. Once again,w hen God was leading the COI and instituted the Levite priests, etc. He PAID them for 24/7 service and availablility(let's not forget they were also the musicians). I don't know why we are hesitant to follow that example. It seems we "waunder after the beast" in every area, except the Sabbath.

When my father was a pastor it was expected they should sacrifice. Most pastors didn't complain. We got other perks to make up? for it. Good medical and dental insurance, much lowere tuition for church school and milege and parsonage allowance. most of the mothers I knew went to work when their children reached academy and College age to make ends meet. We all survived but some better then others. I guess my biggest complaint was the notion that a pastor was on call 24/7 and was gone alot and not home being a father. Today pastors make a lot more then when I was young, however the difference between local pastors and administrators and hospital adm. should not be. If the GC people made the same as a local pastor the pay scale would rise for the local pastor. And as you said WB the real pastors are not complaining because they are on a mission for lost souls and they feel it is worth the sacrifice.TB

[princessdi]

I believe there are a few things that some of us do not take into consideration.

Bob, your suggestion is a good one, if indeed the choice exists. In California, it does not. There are places "less" expensive that others, but they are still way above most portions of the country. The .Com boom sent housing prices here in Northern CA syrocketing for an 1-2 hour radius of Silicon Vallley. They have yet to significantly delcine.

Also, this is also an "ethinic" issue as most black churches exist within the city, inner city to be exact. While the pastor may not live int he hood, he will most likely kills his budget with gas trying to get there for church, Wednesday night, meetings, etc. Many if not most white churches are in the suburbs and even further out that that. in some suburbs it is more expensive, however, still not California. However, there are churches also in little tucked away corners of small cummunities where black or ethnic churches do not exist because very few eithnic groups exist, period. A by product of white flight, but that's another subject for another forum. These communitiies are generally less expensive to live in. houses more afforable, etc. Black pastors don't get such a break.

Now, there is one thing that we recently found out and that are some subsidies for all kinds of things. However, it just still doesn't compare with actually paying them what they are worth. Someone also brought up how specialized the degree required is, they cannot easily go out and change occupations. Plus the suggestion to get a second job, has also created abuses in pastors running something like "honorarium" rings where the pastors are in their own pulpits only twice a month and off preaching at other churches, collecting honorariums the other 2-3 weeks of the month.

I also belive that we are talking, but most are thinking in terms of how prices used to be. Gas prices has cut deeply into everyone's income. Are we areally thinking of the pastors who have to srive an hour or more to one or more churches? I don't even want to see the buisness meeting when the pastor talks about being "less" available due to gas prices. Or worse yet, he can't make to the bed side of a member or relative thereof, becuase he used his last gas trying to make it to prayer meeting, etc. I tseems GC has gone around the block to do anything but paying the pastor's a decent salary. Just pay them.

Don't know what they get paid, but some commute I think two hours one way so they can live someplace that doesn't cost so high. Others live closer and have to pay more for housing. I hear it's an expensive place to be.

[Preacher's Kid]

I just want to put a question out there for everybody. If tomorrow the GC announced that the finances are doing so well they would like to give the Pastors a raise but they are leaving it up to the Adventist members to vote on if they think they should do so how would you vote. Let's say they wanted to take their pay up 12,000 a year. What would your vote be and why?

This post has been edited by Preacher's Kid: Nov 28 2007, 03:18 PM

[Observer]

And one thing the church offers that corporate America many times cannot is job security. It's rare for a church worker to get laid off but it's very common for companies to down size for what ever reason.

I just think that compared to the rest of the world the church is a pretty good employer.

I haved just returned from vacatlion, vilsiting my two oldest sons in another State. I am responding to this post withoug reading all that I have missed.

The idea of denomiantional job security has long since departed


1) In the Conference where I live, it is Conference policy that an Associate pastor serves only at the will of the Sr. pastor. If, for any reason, no exceptions, the Sr. pastor wishes to remove an Associate pastor, it happens.

NOTE: When this happens, the reality is that the Associate pastor will often not be offered another pastoral position.


2) Due to financial constraints onr Conferences often have to reduce their pastoral staff. This has happend more than once in the past 14 years that I liveed in the Conference where I live.

NOTE: These pastors often are not able to obtain another pastoral position.

3) The supply of people qualified to be pastors exceeds (In North America) the pastoral positions available due to finances. When I left the U. S. Army I felt it would be good for me to return to a pastoral position. I contacted the Conference where I haed been employed prior to my entry into the Army Chaplaincy. I was told that they had a position expected to come open in the near future. As it was not yet open it had not yet been advertised, nor had any other attempts beeen made to fill it. Yet, they already had requests from over 100 pastors to be consdiered for that up coming position.

On another point: We sometimes ask pastors to take churches in areas where we can not pay them enough to live near that congregation. As a result, pastors sometimes live 100 miles from the chruches that they pastor. This does not lead to good ministry.

4) I am personally aware of situations where, due to finances, congregations are pastored by lay members, with no pastoral training. It saves money when money is tight.

[Observer]

Yes, I recall the point that the Adventist church was unique in that all workers were paid at the same relative level regardless of position.



-bear

There is a movement, in North America, to pay pastors based upon the size of the membership of the congregation that they pastor!

This raises several issues in my mind.