Ministry Or Business, When does ministry stop being ministry? Options

[princessdi]

There is such a fine line. Like said, I am in agreement with SP that Billy Graham's ministry is about theo only one I can think of off the top of my head that truly avoided the appearance of evil, and that in which no one questions the mission or his sincerity in wanting to win souls for the Kingdom, on the surface. I really like T. D. Jakes, however, there are too many questions that can only be answered by digging deeply. People are only about what they "see". He and others are doing real good right about now, however, in Jakes case, we didn't know his name when he poured his heart soul, like savings, money and had and didn't have into his ministry. However, neither is anyone interested. I know because I take the time to find out most don't, especially if their doctrine is already opposed to theirs, and especially Adventist, because we know they are all spinning their wheeels because they go to church on Sunday, etc. This is just one more douse of gasoline on their already soaked drawers. All they know now, is that he has a huge church and lots of money. I think because he is in ministry it is mostly his repsonsibility to make sure, as Graham did, that no misconceptions can be made. As we see, it can be done.

Like I said there is a fine line. I believe that those who are in "ministry" do have a responsibility to "avoid the appearance of evil",a nd to truly be about their Father's business..........and not making a profit for condcting that business However, members have a fixation for ministers to be something like Jesus and the Apostles, which I think is unrealistic. If they are living large, they must be doing something wrong, I don't believe that is fair either. God can bless all he chooses with riches, minstry or not. I just can see both sides of this issue.

I still see no biblical blessing given to making riches off of ministry. None! I believe that this would be a true conflict of interest. But the real "ouch" comes where those who perform Christian ministry will not minister unless they are paid. There is absolutely no biblical backing for that. Charging for concerts and other events where people are supposedly ministering? Did Jesus charge fees for his events? Do we think that it is ok for the Gospel, the blessing that God intends to flow through people to others, and the Holy Spirit to be hijacked and sold as widgets on the market to whoever has the money to pay for something that makes them feel good?

[Shiny Penny]

pulpit pimps..... if the pastor/bishop (or whatever they decide to call themselves) allows their church to buy them a Bentley for pastor appreciation, and the members contributing are driving a Hyundai or worse a "1919 getoutandpush," there is a problem.... IMO....

Personally, I am not in favor of giving such gifts to any pastor. First, the pastor gets a salary and allowances, let him/her live off that. Second, accepting expensive gifts does make you beholden to the giver(s).

[beartrap]

I personally see nothing wrong with people in ministry getting filthy rich, as long as the ministry is not their vehicle to getting rich.

The words of Jesus:

And said unto them that sold doves, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house an house of merchandise.
John 2:16

[beartrap]

However, members have a fixation for ministers to be something like Jesus and the Apostles, which I think is unrealistic.

I find nothing wrong with members expecting those who have chosen to follow Christ in leadership of HIS flock to follow HIS example, and do as HE specifically directed. They are not EGWhitians, or Paulians, they are Christians... or at least that is name under which they operate.

[Shiny Penny]

I personally see nothing wrong with people in ministry getting filthy rich, as long as the ministry is not their vehicle to getting rich.

The words of Jesus:

Can you please expand upon this statement? When is the ministry a vehicle for getting rich and when is it not - according to your views?

[simplysaved]

So are you stating that this includes that they should not:

1. own anything but the shirt on their back
2. not have a home or apartment
3. not ever marry
4. not have a steady means of income

That sounds a lot like the Catholic priest and nun orders if you do.

I find nothing wrong with members expecting those who have chosen to follow Christ in leadership of HIS flock to follow HIS example, and do as HE specifically directed. They are not EGWhitians, or Paulians, they are Christians... or at least that is name under which they operate.

[Shiny Penny]

So are you stating that this includes that they should not:

1. own anything but the shirt on their back
2. not have a home or apartment
3. not ever marry
4. not have a steady means of income

That sounds a lot like the Catholic priest and nun orders if you do.

Beartrap did include in his post to also "do as He specifically directed." Unless Christ specifically directed not to own anything, not to have a home, not to marry, nor to have means of income...then Beartrap is NOT stating that they should not do/have those things.

[beartrap]

Beartrap did include in his post to also "do as He specifically directed." Unless Christ specifically directed not to own anything, not to have a home, not to marry, nor to have means of income...then Beartrap is NOT stating that they should not do/have those things.

What he said.

[beartrap]

Can you please expand upon this statement? When is the ministry a vehicle for getting rich and when is it not - according to your views?

I must admit that my views on all of this are very much under development at this time. I recently saw that there was a concert by a famous Christian singer who was charging $25.00 per ticket. Not being a fan of his type of music, I did not attend, but it did occur to me that there was something wrong with not letting people be ministered to unless they could pay, but I didn't think much more about it until I was told about a person who is famous in children's ministry and women's ministry who required not only expenses to be paid, but a sizeable sum of payment on top of that before they would agree to minister to some kids who they were asked to minister to. At that point my wheels started spinning and I decided to put it out there so I could get more perspectives and thoughts. I have known, and known of many singers, speakers, and evangelists who will not minister to people or groups unless they are paid to do it, and as I have thought over that concept, I am disturbed. One thought leads to another, and I have had to think about the matter of creating and using a ministry that pays enormous salaries, or is used as a vehicle for selling items that will bring in large sums of personal money. Something just seems wrong about that, but maybe that is just me.

This post has been edited by beartrap: Nov 2 2007, 02:50 PM

[YogusBearus]

I must admit that my views on all of this are very much under development at this time. I recently saw that there was a concert by a famous Christian singer who was charging $25.00 per ticket. Not being a fan of his type of music, I did not attend, but it did occur to me that there was something wrong with not letting people be ministered to unless they could pay, but I didn't think much more about it until I was told about a person who is famous in children's ministry and women's ministry who required not only expenses to be paid, but a sizeable sum of payment on top of that before they would agree to minister to some kids who they were asked to minister to. At that point my wheels started spinning and I decided to put it out there so I could get more perspectives and thoughts. I have known, and known of many singers, speakers, and evangelists who will not minister to people or groups unless they are paid to do it, and as I have thought over that concept, I am disturbed. One thought leads to another, and I have had to think about the matter of creating and using a ministry that pays enormous salaries, or is used as a vehicle for selling items that will bring in large sums of personal money. Something just seems wrong about that, but maybe that is just me.

I think you make some very valid points Beartrap. I think it's healthy for us to accept that all religious ministries, denominations included, are businesses. There is nothing inherently wrong with this as long as the primary mission does not become how to grow and protect the business versus spreading the gospel. As far as Christian artists are concerned, I really like the idea of free-will offerings rather than ticket sales. I have no problem with Christian artists or speakers being able to profit from their recordings or books as long as it's done in an up-front manner without improper subsidies.

I find it rather amusing that the Kings Herald quartet will do anything to avoid doing a concert during the Sabbath hours. The inability to do their CD sales after the concert just doesn't fit well with their current business mode. I contrast that with a conversation I had with Michael Card a few years back. I asked him where I could purchase bulk copies of one of his songs to use with a Praise Choir I was working with at the time. He told me to go ahead and make as many photocopies as I needed as this is the reason that all his music books measured exactly 8 ½ by 11 inches for easy copying.

-bear

[Shiny Penny]

I think you make some very valid points Beartrap. I think it's healthy for us to accept that all religious ministries, denominations included, are businesses. There is nothing inherently wrong with this as long as the primary mission does not become how to grow and protect the business versus spreading the gospel. As far as Christian artists are concerned, I really like the idea of free-will offerings rather than ticket sales. I have no problem with Christian artists or speakers being able to profit from their recordings or books as long as it's done in an up-front manner without improper subsidies.

I find it rather amusing that the Kings Herald quartet will do anything to avoid doing a concert during the Sabbath hours. The inability to do their CD sales after the concert just doesn't fit well with their current business mode. I contrast that with a conversation I had with Michael Card a few years back. I asked him where I could purchase bulk copies of one of his songs to use with a Praise Choir I was working with at the time. He told me to go ahead and make as many photocopies as I needed as this is the reason that all his music books measured exactly 8 ½ by 11 inches for easy copying.

-bear

Michael Card must be one in a million. Bless him!

To Beartrap - a $25 concert - after paying expenses the performer was probably giving away his time as a blessing.

This topic brings me to another thought ... should SDA pastors who are already on the payroll (salary, health & education benefits, mileage etc) receive an additional stipend when they preach away from their home church? I have heard that it is not uncommon for a church to pay a guest speaker an nice honorarium, even when he (or she) is a salaried pastor or conference official.

[princessdi]

Now, there is abuse in this area, I know first hand. I became aware of it about 7 years ago. When we changed pastors. We noticed in about a year that our pastor was only spending aobut two sbbaths in our pulpit, and his friends were there ti other 2-3 sabbaths. I do believe that they should get honorariums, because they are underpaid for the job expected, and more often than not is done. I mean Discovery could not have called me when I was off, really unless I siad it was ok, let alone at 5am when the east coast HQ opened. Pastors are "on" ALL the time, and working each and everytime they speak to a member on the phone or in person, at noon or 3AM. They need to get a salaryt hat reflects I believe this is also why that is th reason for the abuses, even though realistically they will be some who abuse whatever system in place.

Many of us here go to school, etc. to earn a desired salary. Many of us have to even come close to going the amount of time our pastos are reuqired to go, however, we are quite confortable in assigning to them salaries for which we won't even consider a position. God paid His pastos, the Levites.........and they were also the musicians,w hich many of us forget, so God also paid them. I dont' know wh ere we got the fact that musicians ought to work for free, drawing on vacations, sick leave, and personal days to play for funerals, evangelistic meetings, etc.

Michael Card must be one in a million. Bless him!

To Beartrap - a $25 concert - after paying expenses the performer was probably giving away his time as a blessing.

This topic brings me to another thought ... should SDA pastors who are already on the payroll (salary, health & education benefits, mileage etc) receive an additional stipend when they preach away from their home church? I have heard that it is not uncommon for a church to pay a guest speaker an nice honorarium, even when he (or she) is a salaried pastor or conference official.

[Richard Sherwin]

Since the Kings Heralds are only supported by their CD sales and maybe a freewill offering I admire them for their Sabbath stance.

I think you make some very valid points Beartrap. I think it's healthy for us to accept that all religious ministries, denominations included, are businesses. There is nothing inherently wrong with this as long as the primary mission does not become how to grow and protect the business versus spreading the gospel. As far as Christian artists are concerned, I really like the idea of free-will offerings rather than ticket sales. I have no problem with Christian artists or speakers being able to profit from their recordings or books as long as it's done in an up-front manner without improper subsidies.

I find it rather amusing that the Kings Herald quartet will do anything to avoid doing a concert during the Sabbath hours. The inability to do their CD sales after the concert just doesn't fit well with their current business mode. I contrast that with a conversation I had with Michael Card a few years back. I asked him where I could purchase bulk copies of one of his songs to use with a Praise Choir I was working with at the time. He told me to go ahead and make as many photocopies as I needed as this is the reason that all his music books measured exactly 8 ½ by 11 inches for easy copying.

-bear

[beartrap]

Michael Card must be one in a million. Bless him!

To Beartrap - a $25 concert - after paying expenses the performer was probably giving away his time as a blessing.

LOL! It was not $25 for the whole concert, it was $25 per person to get into the church, which holds over 2000 people. Not really a give away of his time.

[beartrap]

When it comes to pay for ministry, I am sure there is a line in there somewhere, but I am not sure where. I am sure, however, that refusing to minister to people who can't pay for God's blessing is wrong.