Ministry Or Business, When does ministry stop being ministry? Options

[beartrap]

The Joyce Meyers thing is interesting as it demonstrates that a person in ministry can be just transparent enough to hide the fact that they are not transparent. But even if they were totally transparent and divulged all of the financial information regarding what Meyers gets, is it right that she has made wealth by lowering God, the Gospel, and Christian ministry to pieces of merchandise? It seems to me that hawking your creator on TV like a set Ginsu knives on an infomercial could be a little dangerous.

I think that this hidden transparency could also apply in the area of books, CDs, DVDs, and many other items and services sold for personal profit through the ministry venues created and/or operated by those selling God like some widget for their own profit.

[simplysaved]

The Bible states to not let your left hand know what the right one is doing. Many artists do alot of things for free, particularly regarding youth audiences. They are just not advertised--and should not be.

Yes, $25 for a ticket is certainly reasonable for a concert. However, if the group/musician/artist is flying under the colours of Christian ministry, AND the concert is supposed to be an act ministry to people who need to be ministered to, many people are immediately exempted from ministry because they cannot afford it. Did Jesus ever exempt people from his ministry because they were too poor to be ministered to? I take exeption to that. It is easy to talk about following Christ's example until that example becomes inconsistent with what is desired or wanted. When a man said that he wanted to follow Jesus wherever he went, Jesus responded with a warning that "the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have their nests, but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head."

I am not saying that I would care to do it, but it appears to me that the biblical model for ministry and Christian leadership involves an aweful lot of sacrifice. I find no place in the teaching of Jesus that allows for it is to be done only for profit. It seems to me that ministry at the tip of the dollar is a major conflict of interest. It seems to me that the words of Jesus where he said "You will not make my Father's house a house of merchandise" apply today in the marketing of Jesus and his father's ministry for dollars.

[simplysaved]

I do--the choirs/chorals also got paid in the Bible.

But you see, Skyhook, God thought it was "real job" enough to pay them and very well, at that. A good portion of the lives of David and solomon wer anything but christian. Now for the group, I dont' know wh at to tell ya' about that one. LOL!!!

[Skyhook]

I do--the choirs/chorals also got paid in the Bible.

Yes, they were paid salaries just as the priests were paid. What we are seeing these days, and what I described, is a far cry from a choir or chorale presenting sacred music in the service of the church. What I saw was a group presenting entertainment in the guise of religion on Sabbath afternoon with the object of "gleaning" a few more dollars from the members in the pews.
I know that sounds harsh, and like I said earlier, I do have sympathy for the skilled and trained musicians who would like to use their talents as a career in the service of the Lord. All I can say is that I wish them well, (and I wouldn't mind having a couple of them in our local church.)

[simplysaved]

Many to most of SDA skilled musicians work at Sunday churches where they are paid any where from 30,000--100,000 annually.

Yes, they were paid salaries just as the priests were paid. What we are seeing these days, and what I described, is a far cry from a choir or chorale presenting sacred music in the service of the church. What I saw was a group presenting entertainment in the guise of religion on Sabbath afternoon with the object of "gleaning" a few more dollars from the members in the pews.
I know that sounds harsh, and like I said earlier, I do have sympathy for the skilled and trained musicians who would like to use their talents as a career in the service of the Lord. All I can say is that I wish them well, (and I wouldn't mind having a couple of them in our local church.)

[princessdi]

Ok so,this is new. I always thought that the Levites were given the tenth of ALL the rest of the tribes so that they did not have to tend cattle, vineyards, etc.

But I can't see why it doesn't work. I can see that it won't work on a individual basis, depending on their personal strengths and weaknesses, but I don't see that being a rule. God gave us all gift, talents, and natural skills to help in the making our own living in this world. Please explain to me why they cannot use the gift and talent of music to make their living. Not even within the church. You do understand that most as saying here that musicians should not be paid within the church when they " minister"/perform, and then you are also damning them to hell if they should find their fortunes in the world of "secular"music. So unless they are at the churches beck and call for free, they are not allowed to make a living from their gift from God? I mean we don't say that to the church treasurer who also makes their living in the world of finance.

Yes princessdi, but the Levite musicians provided music for the temple worship. They had rotating intervals during which they served in the temple. Other times they were apparantly tending to thier vinyards or cattle or whatever. They were not likely out entertaining the Philistines when not on the job in the temple.

I do have sympathy for the many talented musicians in the church. There are not that many paid positions available for musicians. I know a few who at one time had aspirations to be pop stars but that ambition didn't fit with their spiritual direction. The CCM scene no doubt is seen as a way to do both, but from what I have heard, it is a spiritual mirage.
Ivor Myers is an example of some one who sees it clearly and turned away from a lucrative career. Pastor Brian Jones, the author of one of our past lesson quarterlies gave up his ambition to be a Jazz pianist after spending years trying to play jazz in clubs and have a spiritual life too. He saw it did not work.

[princessdi]

You are right!

I do--the choirs/chorals also got paid in the Bible.

[princessdi]

Yes, they do!

Many to most of SDA skilled musicians work at Sunday churches where they are paid any where from 30,000--100,000 annually.

[YogusBearus]

Many to most of SDA skilled musicians work at Sunday churches where they are paid any where from 30,000--100,000 annually.

SS, your point is correct. Many Adventists musicians have found gainful employment in other churches and it can be very rewarding. Anecdotally, I’ve done both sides of that equation and while I was blessed with my involvement with a “Sunday” church that paid for my services, it never rose to the same level of ministry that my unpaid service to my home church did. I was more energized after doing three services on Saturday than one service on Sunday. Maybe it's just me but I am thankful I had one gift I could use in service.



-bear

[simplysaved]

I also hear what you are saying. My simple point is that since people still have to earn a living, provide for themselves and family, and pay bills, your skilled musicians may serve in some capapcity in their local congregations, but are working for 1st Day churches.

SS, your point is correct. Many Adventists musicians have found gainful employment in other churches and it can be very rewarding. Anecdotally, I’ve done both sides of that equation and while I was blessed with my involvement with a “Sunday” church that paid for my services, it never rose to the same level of ministry that my unpaid service to my home church did. I was more energized after doing three services on Saturday than one service on Sunday. Maybe it's just me but I am thankful I had one gift I could use in service.

-bear

[PeacefulBe]

It can be deeply satisfiying to bless others freely with one's gift. Of course, when one is led to make music or any other gift a ministry it isn't sinful to get paid for it.

Discovering one's spiritual gift(s) and then using them for God's glory fulfills one's purpose. If we don't, or if we exploit that gift for selfish reasons, say like Samson did with his strength - using it to settle his gambling debts and seeking pleasure instead of delivering the COI from the Philistines as was God's plan for his strength - we walk away from the light and into the shadows. A dangerous and costly place to be.

[simplysaved]

Well said!

It can be deeply satisfiying to bless others freely with one's gift. Of course, when one is led to make music or any other gift a ministry it isn't sinful to get paid for it.

Discovering one's spiritual gift(s) and then using them for God's glory fulfills one's purpose. If we don't, or if we exploit that gift for selfish reasons, say like Samson did with his strength - using it to settle his gambling debts and seeking pleasure instead of delivering the COI from the Philistines as was God's plan for his strength - we walk away from the light and into the shadows. A dangerous and costly place to be.

[Skyhook]

Ok so,this is new. I always thought that the Levites were given the tenth of ALL the rest of the tribes so that they did not have to tend cattle, vineyards, etc.

But I can't see why it doesn't work. I can see that it won't work on a individual basis, depending on their personal strengths and weaknesses, but I don't see that being a rule. God gave us all gift, talents, and natural skills to help in the making our own living in this world. Please explain to me why they cannot use the gift and talent of music to make their living. Not even within the church. You do understand that most as saying here that musicians should not be paid within the church when they " minister"/perform, and then you are also damning them to hell if they should find their fortunes in the world of "secular"music. So unless they are at the churches beck and call for free, they are not allowed to make a living from their gift from God? I mean we don't say that to the church treasurer who also makes their living in the world of finance.

Did I d--- anyone to hell? People are free to find their fortunes anywhere they wish. It is a matter of their own personal conscience how they want to do it. What I am saying is that there are not very many paid jobs in the church for musicians, and I know it is hard to make a living as a musician playing secular music. For someone who wants to maintain a strong spiritual life there are many problems going that route, unless you are someone like Herbert Blomstedt, a Seventh-day Adventist who conducted the SF Symphony for about 10 years, I think. He can write his own ticket. But for the average person, there are a lot of demands that will involve some dangers to their faith.

[lowender]

The apostle Paul didn't quit making tents right away after he got his high calling.

Peter owned a house & a boat in Capernaum. He was a fisherman.

The pastor who has another skill under his belt is the one who can be more depended on.

[Johann]

Did I d--- anyone to hell? People are free to find their fortunes anywhere they wish. It is a matter of their own personal conscience how they want to do it. What I am saying is that there are not very many paid jobs in the church for musicians, and I know it is hard to make a living as a musician playing secular music. For someone who wants to maintain a strong spiritual life there are many problems going that route, unless you are someone like Herbert Blomstedt, a Seventh-day Adventist who conducted the SF Symphony for about 10 years, I think. He can write his own ticket. But for the average person, there are a lot of demands that will involve some dangers to their faith.

Herbert's brother, Noman, was also a gifted musician, playing the cello. But besides music, he studied medicine in order to make a living. And I know other gifted musicians who have done the same.