Ministry Or Business, When does ministry stop being ministry? Options

[simplysaved]

First, they are Levites--The Bible says that Levites (musicians, singers) are to get paid.

Now, here is the real breakdown of an artist:

1. Unless they write and/or produce their music like Kirk Franklin, they only retain 40-50% of what they make signed to a major label like Verity/Zomba or Sony--which is like taxes in your paycheck is gone before you get it.

2. Out of what is left you tithe (that's another 10%) pay your musicians, background singers, and everyone else associated with the project (management, producers, writer, arrangers, etc). And then you have to pay for usage of the facility. The end result is left with very little. If they did not charge anything, they would not eat. Artists generally make their money on the road selling novelty items such as shirts, C.d.'s, DVD of live performances, and etc.

BTW, $25 is pretty reasonable for a concert. I went to see the Clark Sisters and paid $25 (which included parking and optimum seating). My friend and I paid $35-45 to see Donnie McClurkin & Cece Winans in Atlanta in 2006 (although I have also seen them for free) and it was more than worth it.

Independent artists have the potential to fare better if they secure distribution (sends their C.D.'s to major outlets). Internet downloads have taken a big financial "chunk" out of both the contracted and independent artist, because then people do not buy the product. And you know Adventist (excluding self) are the Kings and Queens of dubbing/copying--and when we do a "love offering" concert, the total is between $100-300....which is a shame (another topic for another thread), so the artist has to charge a fee.

There are artist who preach for whatever a church can afford, but will charge a flat rate (separate for a Gospel performance--that I agree with).

LOL! It was not $25 for the whole concert, it was $25 per person to get into the church, which holds over 2000 people. Not really a give away of his time.

This post has been edited by simplysaved: Nov 2 2007, 07:57 PM

[simplysaved]

That is also what I said....

I just left a meeting with a major community leader here in Nashville, TN. One of the things she (also a liscensed pastor of an interdenominational organization) stated was that the community becomes fearful of ministries directed to a church (with exceptions) thinking that someone is trying to convert them. It may seem minor, but an independent ministry with an Adventist foundation has the potential to be more successful than a church or world-wide church that is Adventist. People know who you are and what you believe as an overview, but want to know that first and foremost you are concerned about THEM and THEIR NEEDS--not just converting them to Adventist first and then taking care of their needs.

One of the other things to remember is that a ministry has to be executed in the way GOD tells you to. It made (and to me still does) perfect sense for Jesus to tell the disciples not to be dependent on anything or anyone else for their ministry. That would have biased their motive, methods, and results. They could not be active (although they attended regularly) in the synagouge beginning a new ministry promoting Christianity. Had families and children been with them, they would have divided and easy targets for retaliation. Diversions and impacting what Jesus instructed them to do.
Regardless of where we all stand regarding 3ABN, one of the reasons it has been as successful as it has is because it is an independent ministry and not run by the church. What they have done effectively is partnering with entities/organizations within the system and 3ABN creating its' own programming and ministries.

Being a layperson in ministry definitely has its advantages--and rewards.
Does that make sense?

Beartrap did include in his post to also "do as He specifically directed." Unless Christ specifically directed not to own anything, not to have a home, not to marry, nor to have means of income...then Beartrap is NOT stating that they should not do/have those things.

[YogusBearus]

Regardless of where we all stand regarding 3ABN, one of the reasons it has been as successful as it has is because it is an independent ministry and not run by the church. What they have done effectively is partnering with entities/organizations within the system and 3ABN creating its' own programming and ministries.

I might add to that success formula that 3ABN has very deftly developed their SDA giving base to support their growth and financial needs. This "non-denominational" ministry has been so effective in exploiting the brethren that many of the older generation trusted 3ABN more than the church and diverted their tithes to support what they thought was a pure and worthwhile adventure. Go figure…

-bear

[Chez]

I must admit that my views on all of this are very much under development at this time. I recently saw that there was a concert by a famous Christian singer who was charging $25.00 per ticket. Not being a fan of his type of music, I did not attend, but it did occur to me that there was something wrong with not letting people be ministered to unless they could pay, but I didn't think much more about it until I was told about a person who is famous in children's ministry and women's ministry who required not only expenses to be paid, but a sizeable sum of payment on top of that before they would agree to minister to some kids who they were asked to minister to. At that point my wheels started spinning and I decided to put it out there so I could get more perspectives and thoughts. I have known, and known of many singers, speakers, and evangelists who will not minister to people or groups unless they are paid to do it, and as I have thought over that concept, I am disturbed. One thought leads to another, and I have had to think about the matter of creating and using a ministry that pays enormous salaries, or is used as a vehicle for selling items that will bring in large sums of personal money. Something just seems wrong about that, but maybe that is just me.

I can see where there is some concern over people in ministry "charging" a fee. However, isn't there somewhere in 1 Corinthians 9:14 (I think) where Paul talks about that God has ordained those who preach the gospel that they should live from the gospel (paraphrasing)? In addition, if that christian singer has background singers, sound people, musicians, manager, and other personnel, those people have to get paid. Unfortunately, the electric companies don't give people in ministry a free pass. Oftentimes, these people have families and as you are aware families have needs. I have found in my previous experiences that if I didn't charge a fee, most people didn't take it seriously and perceived that there was a lack in quality of my presentation(s). [Its the world we live in.] I also discovered that after expenses, my take home "pay" was nominal. These people also have to pay taxes, health insurance, and other items that are usually included in our fringe benefits when we are working for an employer. This is their fulltime job. If they are not using original music, then there are the copyright and performance issues. I personally don't think that it is a black and white issue. There are some issues and responsibilities that muddy the water. Unfortunately, this is the business world in which we find ourselves.

[WillowRun]

So are you stating that this includes that they should not:

1. own anything but the shirt on their back
2. not have a home or apartment
3. not ever marry
4. not have a steady means of income

That sounds a lot like the Catholic priest and nun orders if you do.

I thought it sounded more like the homeless people that are in towns and cities across this country or perhaps the totally impoverished who live in third world countries around the world....the least of these spoken of in the Bible....

Interesting topic

Respectfully,
Willow

[beartrap]

First, they are Levites--The Bible says that Levites (musicians, singers) are to get paid.

Now, here is the real breakdown of an artist:

1. Unless they write and/or produce their music like Kirk Franklin, they only retain 40-50% of what they make signed to a major label like Verity/Zomba or Sony--which is like taxes in your paycheck is gone before you get it.

2. Out of what is left you tithe (that's another 10%) pay your musicians, background singers, and everyone else associated with the project (management, producers, writer, arrangers, etc). And then you have to pay for usage of the facility. The end result is left with very little. If they did not charge anything, they would not eat. Artists generally make their money on the road selling novelty items such as shirts, C.d.'s, DVD of live performances, and etc.

BTW, $25 is pretty reasonable for a concert. I went to see the Clark Sisters and paid $25 (which included parking and optimum seating). My friend and I paid $35-45 to see Donnie McClurkin & Cece Winans in Atlanta in 2006 (although I have also seen them for free) and it was more than worth it.

Independent artists have the potential to fare better if they secure distribution (sends their C.D.'s to major outlets). Internet downloads have taken a big financial "chunk" out of both the contracted and independent artist, because then people do not buy the product. And you know Adventist (excluding self) are the Kings and Queens of dubbing/copying--and when we do a "love offering" concert, the total is between $100-300....which is a shame (another topic for another thread), so the artist has to charge a fee.

There are artist who preach for whatever a church can afford, but will charge a flat rate (separate for a Gospel performance--that I agree with).

Yes, $25 for a ticket is certainly reasonable for a concert. However, if the group/musician/artist is flying under the colours of Christian ministry, AND the concert is supposed to be an act ministry to people who need to be ministered to, many people are immediately exempted from ministry because they cannot afford it. Did Jesus ever exempt people from his ministry because they were too poor to be ministered to? I take exeption to that. It is easy to talk about following Christ's example until that example becomes inconsistent with what is desired or wanted. When a man said that he wanted to follow Jesus wherever he went, Jesus responded with a warning that "the foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have their nests, but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head."

I am not saying that I would care to do it, but it appears to me that the biblical model for ministry and Christian leadership involves an aweful lot of sacrifice. I find no place in the teaching of Jesus that allows for it is to be done only for profit. It seems to me that ministry at the tip of the dollar is a major conflict of interest. It seems to me that the words of Jesus where he said "You will not make my Father's house a house of merchandise" apply today in the marketing of Jesus and his father's ministry for dollars.

[Shiny Penny]

LOL! It was not $25 for the whole concert, it was $25 per person to get into the church, which holds over 2000 people. Not really a give away of his time.

Ha ha! My mistake, I meant $25 per ticket! But still it is a bargain, because the concerts and the like that I've gone to (and they are few indeed) cost closer to $60 per ticket and not in the really good seats either.

[Skyhook]

I can see where there is some concern over people in ministry "charging" a fee. However, isn't there somewhere in 1 Corinthians 9:14 (I think) where Paul talks about that God has ordained those who preach the gospel that they should live from the gospel (paraphrasing)? In addition, if that christian singer has background singers, sound people, musicians, manager, and other personnel, those people have to get paid. Unfortunately, the electric companies don't give people in ministry a free pass. Oftentimes, these people have families and as you are aware families have needs. I have found in my previous experiences that if I didn't charge a fee, most people didn't take it seriously and perceived that there was a lack in quality of my presentation(s). [Its the world we live in.] I also discovered that after expenses, my take home "pay" was nominal. These people also have to pay taxes, health insurance, and other items that are usually included in our fringe benefits when we are working for an employer. This is their fulltime job. If they are not using original music, then there are the copyright and performance issues. I personally don't think that it is a black and white issue. There are some issues and responsibilities that muddy the water. Unfortunately, this is the business world in which we find ourselves.

They could go out and get a real job. Or quit pretending that a career in the entertainment business is a "ministry." From what I have read, CCM is a billion dollar business. I have yet to hear of anyone being converted at a CCM concert. And according to some of the former performers, some of the life styles of the CCM "stars" are anything but Christian.
I attended a Sabbath afternoon concert at a relatively large church to hear a well known popular Adventist group (about ten or twelve singers using back up tapes) I was nothing more than entertainment. I did not see how mentioning Jesus once in a while in their songs and talk made it a spiritual experience. Then the leader made a rather pitiful plea for money. I was not impressed.
JMHO re entertainment "ministries."

[princessdi]

But you see, Skyhook, God thought it was "real job" enough to pay them and very well, at that. A good portion of the lives of David and solomon wer anything but christian. Now for the group, I dont' know wh at to tell ya' about that one. LOL!!!

They could go out and get a real job. Or quit pretending that a career in the entertainment business is a "ministry." From what I have read, CCM is a billion dollar business. I have yet to hear of anyone being converted at a CCM concert. And according to some of the former performers, some of the life styles of the CCM "stars" are anything but Christian.
I attended a Sabbath afternoon concert at a relatively large church to hear a well known popular Adventist group (about ten or twelve singers using back up tapes) I was nothing more than entertainment. I did not see how mentioning Jesus once in a while in their songs and talk made it a spiritual experience. Then the leader made a rather pitiful plea for money. I was not impressed.
JMHO re entertainment "ministries."

[beartrap]

The kings, such as David and Solomon made their money off of conquest, taxes, and trade in hard merchandise. Various other wealthy men of God like Abraham and Job made their vast wealth off of livestock and other forms of non-ministry trade.

[princessdi]

I mentioned them in answer to Skyhook's reference to the lifestyle of some of the members of CCM(whoever they maybe). not in reference to their wealth. Sorry for the ocnfusion.

The kings, such as David and Solomon made their money off of conquest, taxes, and trade in hard merchandise. Various other wealthy men of God like Abraham and Job made their vast wealth off of livestock and other forms of non-ministry trade.

[Skyhook]

But you see, Skyhook, God thought it was "real job" enough to pay them and very well, at that. A good portion of the lives of David and solomon wer anything but christian. Now for the group, I dont' know wh at to tell ya' about that one. LOL!!!

Yes princessdi, but the Levite musicians provided music for the temple worship. They had rotating intervals during which they served in the temple. Other times they were apparantly tending to thier vinyards or cattle or whatever. They were not likely out entertaining the Philistines when not on the job in the temple.

I do have sympathy for the many talented musicians in the church. There are not that many paid positions available for musicians. I know a few who at one time had aspirations to be pop stars but that ambition didn't fit with their spiritual direction. The CCM scene no doubt is seen as a way to do both, but from what I have heard, it is a spiritual mirage.
Ivor Myers is an example of some one who sees it clearly and turned away from a lucrative career. Pastor Brian Jones, the author of one of our past lesson quarterlies gave up his ambition to be a Jazz pianist after spending years trying to play jazz in clubs and have a spiritual life too. He saw it did not work.

This post has been edited by Skyhook: Nov 2 2007, 11:02 PM

[TruthWave]

Have you ever looked at the Joyce Meyer Ministries website? She/they are rather open about her compensation. Her salary is $250,000 per year, plus housing allowance and retirement benefits. And if I understood correctly the profits from the books and honorariums go to the ministry. http://www.joycemeyer.org/JMMWeb/2006Annua...mpensation.html

TD Jakes calls it "business." http://www.tdjakes.com/site/PageServer?pag...out_initiatives

Do you think that Jesus and the 12 Apostle ever came close to making $250,000, in the currency of their times? I don't think! JM's salary is is outrageous!

[Panama_Pete]

Do you think that Jesus and the 12 Apostle ever came close to making $250,000, in the currency of their times? I don't think! JM's salary is is outrageous!

The Joyce Meyer website uses the word "included" in their statement.

It would also be accurate to say the White House at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, DC, includes a stove, a refrigerator, and a place to park the car. The White House does include all of those amenities. It's absolutely true. But there's a bit more to the White House than that.


"April 23, 2007

To Supporters of
Joyce Meyer Ministries, Inc.

In 2006, the compensation approved by the Board of Directors and provided to Joyce Meyer as President of Joyce Meyer Ministries, Inc., included salary and fringe benefits of $250,000, a housing allowance and contributions to retirement plans."

[Shiny Penny]

The Joyce Meyer website uses the word "included" in their statement.

It would also be accurate to say the White House at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, Washington, DC, includes a stove, a refrigerator, and a place to park the car. The White House does include all of those amenities. It's absolutely true. But there's a bit more to the White House than that.
"April 23, 2007

To Supporters of
Joyce Meyer Ministries, Inc.

In 2006, the compensation approved by the Board of Directors and provided to Joyce Meyer as President of Joyce Meyer Ministries, Inc., included salary and fringe benefits of $250,000, a housing allowance and contributions to retirement plans."

Your point is well taken. And you note that they do not put a dollar amount on the housing allowance and contributions to her retirement plans (so she must have more than one, though they may be including the employer's share of SS as well as any other company retirement plan). But my point is that I bet the housing allowance for the compound she and her extended family live on is more than a few nickels a month or they would have disclosed that as well. So as I think on it, they are transparant, but not fully so.

Anyway, it is the Sabbath, I must get out of the house and to church!