Ministry Or Business, When does ministry stop being ministry? Options

[beartrap]

This debacle regarding questions of finance, private enrichment off of donations, etc. has raised a fundamental question in my mind. Can true Christian ministry function as a money-making endeavor?

1When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2and he sent them out to preach the kingdom of God and to heal the sick. 3He told them: "Take nothing for the journey—no staff, no bag, no bread, no money, no extra tunic. 4Whatever house you enter, stay there until you leave that town. 5If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them." 6So they set out and went from village to village, preaching the gospel and healing people everywhere.
Luke 9

57As they were walking along the road, a man said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go."

58Jesus replied, "Foxes have holes and birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head."
Luke 9

It would seem that getting paid is one thing, but if a person will not minister to people who need it, unless those people pay them, is it still ministry? If a person refuses to perform a good deed unless they are paid to do it, is it still a good deed? Concerts, speaking engagements, seminars, meetings, evangelistic campaigns, children's events... these are a few of the many things for which a number of people in ministry require money as the prerequisite to ministering.

Then there is the matter of using the ministry as a tool for enrichement. Is there a conflict of interest present of the people of authority in a ministry are using it to sell things, create personal publicity for the purpose of personal business, etc.?

On the surface, it would appear that the life and teachings of Jesus would not condone that form of ministry, but maybe I am wrong.

[simplysaved]

I am SO that this thread was started!

My response is YES. Bible principle states that bearing good fruit is one of manifestations of God being in a gift, idea, or ministry--however the purpose must stay on Christ and not the profit.

I have much more to share on this, but would like to hear from others as well.

[simplysaved]

I just left a meeting with a major community leader here in Nashville, TN. One of the things she (also a liscensed pastor of an interdenominational organization) stated was that the community becomes fearful of ministries directed to a church (with exceptions) thinking that someone is trying to convert them. It may seem minor, but an independent ministry with an Adventist foundation has the potential to be more successful than a church or world-wide church that is Adventist. People know who you are and what you believe as an overview, but want to know that first and foremost you are concerned about THEM and THEIR NEEDS--not just converting them to Adventist first and then taking care of their needs.

One of the other things to remember is that a ministry has to be executed in the way GOD tells you to. It made (and to me still does) perfect sense for Jesus to tell the disciples not to be dependent on anything or anyone else for their ministry. That would have biased their motive, methods, and results. They could not be active (although they attended regularly) in the synagouge beginning a new ministry promoting Christianity. Had families and children been with them, they would have divided and easy targets for retaliation. Diversions and impacting what Jesus instructed them to do.

Regardless of where we all stand regarding 3ABN, one of the reasons it has been as successful as it has is because it is an independent ministry and not run by the church. What they have done effectively is partnering with entities/organizations within the system and 3ABN creating its' own programming and ministries.

Being a layperson in ministry definitely has its advantages--and rewards.


Does that make sense?

This debacle regarding questions of finance, private enrichment off of donations, etc. has raised a fundamental question in my mind. Can true Christian ministry function as a money-making endeavor?
It would seem that getting paid is one thing, but if a person will not minister to people who need it, unless those people pay them, is it still ministry? If a person refuses to perform a good deed unless they are paid to do it, is it still a good deed? Concerts, speaking engagements, seminars, meetings, evangelistic campaigns, children's events... these are a few of the many things for which a number of people in ministry require money as the prerequisite to ministering.

Then there is the matter of using the ministry as a tool for enrichement. Is there a conflict of interest present of the people of authority in a ministry are using it to sell things, create personal publicity for the purpose of personal business, etc.?

On the surface, it would appear that the life and teachings of Jesus would not condone that form of ministry, but maybe I am wrong.

[princessdi]

Now, I would say that in this respect, subsequent "ministries" have a different focus from the one of Jesus. We know what His true ministry was, but he came and also gave us an example as to how to go about doing ministry. Jesus was not about "living" here is this world but seeking and saving those who were lost, and to become our sinless scrifice for our sins. No need to be concerned aobut "prolonged" existence here on earth.

Now, subsequently the apostles set the president of a kind of "communal" living/church. Everyone brought or sold their goods and brought them to the pot. I am not altogether sure that is a way to go today. they wer, inessence establishing "Christ's Church", therefore their focus is also a bit different.

Now, the other example, even before that of Jesus, was the Levites, who recieved a tithe/tenth of all other tribes in order to serve God 24/7(this closest to what I see the Adventist churches asking of their pastors, by yet and still frowning, even though no longer, requiring that they take no other job, so that they can be available to theor congregations 24/7). I have always maintained that God paid his "pastors" extremely well. We don't do such a great job. Requiring that they take pay that is, usually less than others who posses the required education.


Now, if we are talking in particular about 3ABN, then I will say that, as I have maintained, that they vascillate between ministry and business at times when it is convenient for them. Whent hey wanted to cheat Linda out of her due as co founder of 3ABN, then it was a buisness that nobody owned and she was only an employee and according to some got a most generous "severance( I still say I want to see Danny, who is also an employee, walk out for 250K. I am hearing something already that suggests that he is just not President anymore and is getting more than that. Time will tel, but I digress. When they were filing papers to sue their bretheren, they became non dednominstional to braoden the scope of the ir "damages" as a business would do.. When it came to the TCTR books, they made a business neal that would look like a giveaway to the good church folks who financially support them, but was a financial gold mine for the authors, who just happen to be also the flks who are "giving" the books away.........for free. My point, if these things are not illegal, they are unethical and un Christlike, and they should not be locking Jesus outside of the board meetings, so to speak. Last week the SS lesson talked about reflecting the image of Christ, about us being refined to reflct hHis character. As "The Leader in Christian Living" 3ABN need to reflect the image of Christ in ALL of their dealings, especially business. They should be the "Leader" in how Christians do business. They should be no shady deals and unethical behavior, ALl above board. Besides just being wrong, it also makes the "the on air personality" of the network seem fake and false.

Now, that said, I am not saying that each and every ministries who seems to have more money than Jesus, actually does. Infact I totally believe that God will bless those who sacrifice to do ministry for Him. He is not against His children being rich, even those in ministry. It is how they go about it. Especially in this, it must be remembered what the Bible said, If I be lifted up, I will draw........." and "Seek ye first the King dome of God, and all these things will be added unto you". Agrham was rich and Job ws rich and made even richer, and there were many more. Rishes are not the problem, even in ministry, it is still what is in the heart.


Ok I will step down now.............

[YogusBearus]

This debacle regarding questions of finance, private enrichment off of donations, etc. has raised a fundamental question in my mind. Can true Christian ministry function as a money-making endeavor?

Excellent discussion starter beartrap! It's nice to see something fresh here.

When thinking of contemporary "independent" ministries, the only one I can think of that might be a worthy model is Billy Graham. If my recollection is correct he has refused to be involved with the finances of his ministry from the very start. It seems to me that the vast majority of the "independent" ministries have chosen to be independent of church oversite intentionally to avoid the accountability.

I suspect the desire to avoid accountability most certainly covers the financial aspects of the ministry, but in many cases theological areas as well.

Maybe we could get McDanny to weigh in on the importance of independence and lack of control...

-bear

[princessdi]

Yes, Billy Graham is an excellent example...........Much as I like a few others, they have not done a good job of "avoiding the appearance of evil"

Excellent discussion starter beartrap! It's nice to see something fresh here.

When thinking of contemporary "independent" ministries, the only one I can think of that might be a worthy model is Billy Graham. If my recollection is correct he has refused to be involved with the finances of his ministry from the very start. It seems to me that the vast majority of the "independent" ministries have chosen to be independent of church oversite intentionally to avoid the accountability.

I suspect the desire to avoid accountability most certainly covers the financial aspects of the ministry, but in many cases theological areas as well.

Maybe we could get McDanny to weigh in on the importance of independence and lack of control...

-bear

[beartrap]

Infact I totally believe that God will bless those who sacrifice to do ministry for Him. He is not against His children being rich, even those in ministry. It is how they go about it. Especially in this, it must be remembered what the Bible said, If I be lifted up, I will draw........." and "Seek ye first the King dome of God, and all these things will be added unto you". Agrham was rich and Job ws rich and made even richer, and there were many more. Rishes are not the problem, even in ministry, it is still what is in the heart.
Ok I will step down now.............

I still see no biblical blessing given to making riches off of ministry. None! I believe that this would be a true conflict of interest. But the real "ouch" comes where those who perform Christian ministry will not minister unless they are paid. There is absolutely no biblical backing for that. Charging for concerts and other events where people are supposedly ministering? Did Jesus charge fees for his events? Do we think that it is ok for the Gospel, the blessing that God intends to flow through people to others, and the Holy Spirit to be hijacked and sold as widgets on the market to whoever has the money to pay for something that makes them feel good?

[Shiny Penny]

This debacle regarding questions of finance, private enrichment off of donations, etc. has raised a fundamental question in my mind. Can true Christian ministry function as a money-making endeavor?
It would seem that getting paid is one thing, but if a person will not minister to people who need it, unless those people pay them, is it still ministry? If a person refuses to perform a good deed unless they are paid to do it, is it still a good deed? Concerts, speaking engagements, seminars, meetings, evangelistic campaigns, children's events... these are a few of the many things for which a number of people in ministry require money as the prerequisite to ministering.

Then there is the matter of using the ministry as a tool for enrichement. Is there a conflict of interest present of the people of authority in a ministry are using it to sell things, create personal publicity for the purpose of personal business, etc.?

On the surface, it would appear that the life and teachings of Jesus would not condone that form of ministry, but maybe I am wrong.

Have you ever looked at the Joyce Meyer Ministries website? She/they are rather open about her compensation. Her salary is $250,000 per year, plus housing allowance and retirement benefits. And if I understood correctly the profits from the books and honorariums go to the ministry. http://www.joycemeyer.org/JMMWeb/2006Annua...mpensation.html

TD Jakes calls it "business." http://www.tdjakes.com/site/PageServer?pag...out_initiatives

[Snoopy]

This debacle regarding questions of finance, private enrichment off of donations, etc. has raised a fundamental question in my mind. Can true Christian ministry function as a money-making endeavor?
It would seem that getting paid is one thing, but if a person will not minister to people who need it, unless those people pay them, is it still ministry? If a person refuses to perform a good deed unless they are paid to do it, is it still a good deed? Concerts, speaking engagements, seminars, meetings, evangelistic campaigns, children's events... these are a few of the many things for which a number of people in ministry require money as the prerequisite to ministering.

Then there is the matter of using the ministry as a tool for enrichement. Is there a conflict of interest present of the people of authority in a ministry are using it to sell things, create personal publicity for the purpose of personal business, etc.?

On the surface, it would appear that the life and teachings of Jesus would not condone that form of ministry, but maybe I am wrong.

Great topic, bear!! Here's my $0.02 worth.

I think there are varying degrees of remuneration - just like vegetarianism! For example, one could pour their every last dollar into a ministry and expect/take nothing in return. I have an adopted aunt who falls into that category. Then there are those who would reimburse their personal expenses and maybe a reasonable wage from the ministry proceeds but then re-invest the net proceeds into their ministry. Then there are those who are SO important that they would reimburse themselves upwards of, say, $15,000 just for a weekend...

Of course, then again, I guess it depends on what the recipient does with their remuneration. If they are not a recognized tax-exempt ministry and they turn around and donate 100% of their net proceeds to such an organization it would be a moot point...

~~Snoopy~~

[simplysaved]

What's the big deal? Why do some Christians think that you have to be poor?

I am not aiming for billionaire status, but I know that my name is "Sarah" and not "Broke"....The "Good Times" Cabrini Green days are GONE! If Abraham (as Di stated), Nicodemus, Joseph of Armathea--even Ruth married Boaz....then why can't a Child of the Living God do somehting other than be in debt?

As far as Jakes, Meyers, and (adding a few more) Bishop Eddie Long & Pastor Donnie McClurkin, none of them take money from the churches they pastor (except Meyers who does not pastor a church) in the form of a salary or perks. Those things come from the businesses that they run as independent ministries--and then THEY give to their churches money. Donnie McClurkin is accountable to Pastor Marvin Winans Sr. (in Detroit), who seves as his direct overseer. Trust me: there is more accountability in a Penecostal faith than their ever will be in an Adventist one.

How do you think EGW made her money (and I am a believer in her writings)? She "got paid" from some to many of her writings, too.

Have you ever looked at the Joyce Meyer Ministries website? She/they are rather open about her compensation. Her salary is $250,000 per year, plus housing allowance and retirement benefits. And if I understood correctly the profits from the books and honorariums go to the ministry. http://www.joycemeyer.org/JMMWeb/2006Annua...mpensation.html

TD Jakes calls it "business." http://www.tdjakes.com/site/PageServer?pag...out_initiatives

This post has been edited by simplysaved: Nov 2 2007, 12:45 AM

[Shiny Penny]

What's the big deal? Why do some Christians think that you have to be poor?

I am not aiming for billionaire status, but I know that my name is "Sarah" and not "Broke"....The "Good Times" Cabrini Green days are GONE! If Abraham (as Di stated), Nicodemus, Joseph of Armathea--even Ruth married Boaz....then why can't a Child of the Living God do somehting other than be in debt?

As far as Jakes, Meyers, and (adding a few more) Bishop Eddie Long & Pastor Donnie McClurkin, none of them take money from the churches they pastor (except Meyers who does not pastor a church) in the form of a salary or perks. Those things come from the businesses that they run as independent ministries--and then THEY give to their churches money. Donnie McClurkin is accountable to Pastor Marvin Winans Sr. (in Detroit), who seves as his direct overseer. Trust me: there is more accountability in a Penecostal faith than their ever will be in an Adventist one.

How do you think EGW made her money (and I am a believer in her writings)? She "got paid" from some to many of her writings, too.

Maybe some Christians think you should be poor, because Jesus was poor. But my post was in response to Beartrap, who seemed to imply that ministry is ministry and should not be money-making.

Actually, Beartrap's question is - is it ministry or business. In all cases it will be ministry AND business, regardless of whether small/poor or big/rich or else it won't survive.

But, without the ministry to begin with, there would be little demand for Joyce Meyer's (or any other minister's) books or speaking engagements. Same is true for other ministries. Who would be reading, or interested in reading or even know about TD Jakes, James Dobson, Jim Bakker, Mark Finley, Doug Batchelor, Danny Shelton, if it wasn't for the ministry to begin with?

According to beartrap's post...I still see no biblical blessing given to making riches off of ministry. None! I believe that this would be a true conflict of interest. But the real "ouch" comes where those who perform Christian ministry will not minister unless they are paid. There is absolutely no biblical backing for that. Charging for concerts and other events where people are supposedly ministering? Did Jesus charge fees for his events? Do we think that it is ok for the Gospel, the blessing that God intends to flow through people to others, and the Holy Spirit to be hijacked and sold as widgets on the market to whoever has the money to pay for something that makes them feel good?

Beartrap, your view seems a bit extreme, to me. Yes, Jesus did not charge for his events, but, unlike any other ministers on the 3 1/2 year plan, He had the wherewithal to take a few fish and some bread from a kid's lunch box and make it into enough to "pay" the people who came to hear him.

[simplysaved]

Here is the thing: Even Paul used his trade as a tentmaker to support himself fiancially per scripture. Other moneys came (according to scripture) from what the people would give him. Was that wrong as well? And again, even Ellen White made her living from the sales of some to many of her writings and speaking engagements.

Where I would and do draw the line personally is when it comes to praying for people and healing: NO MAN OR WOMAN OF GOD SHOULD EVER CHARGE A FEE TO BE BLESSED OR HEALED!

My question for you is where should the money go then? For example, Joyce Meyers may make 250K annually plus perks, but all of her staff are paid at competitive salaries in comparison to secular arenas.

Maybe some Christians think you should be poor, because Jesus was poor. But my post was in response to Beartrap, who seemed to imply that ministry is ministry and should not be money-making.

Actually, Beartrap's question is - is it ministry or business. In all cases it will be ministry AND business, regardless of whether small/poor or big/rich or else it won't survive.

But, without the ministry to begin with, there would be little demand for Joyce Meyer's (or any other minister's) books or speaking engagements. Same is true for other ministries. Who would be reading, or interested in reading or even know about TD Jakes, James Dobson, Jim Bakker, Mark Finley, Doug Batchelor, Danny Shelton, if it wasn't for the ministry to begin with?

According to beartrap's post...I still see no biblical blessing given to making riches off of ministry. None! I believe that this would be a true conflict of interest. But the real "ouch" comes where those who perform Christian ministry will not minister unless they are paid. There is absolutely no biblical backing for that. Charging for concerts and other events where people are supposedly ministering? Did Jesus charge fees for his events? Do we think that it is ok for the Gospel, the blessing that God intends to flow through people to others, and the Holy Spirit to be hijacked and sold as widgets on the market to whoever has the money to pay for something that makes them feel good?

Beartrap, your view seems a bit extreme, to me. Yes, Jesus did not charge for his events, but, unlike any other ministers on the 3 1/2 year plan, He had the wherewithal to take a few fish and some bread from a kid's lunch box and make it into enough to "pay" the people who came to hear him.

[Clay]

pulpit pimps..... if the pastor/bishop (or whatever they decide to call themselves) allows their church to buy them a Bentley for pastor appreciation, and the members contributing are driving a Hyundai or worse a "1919 getoutandpush," there is a problem.... IMO....

[simplysaved]

This was posted in another thread a month or two ago and would be a good fit here.... Retail Religion

pulpit pimps..... if the pastor/bishop (or whatever they decide to call themselves) allows their church to buy them a Bentley for pastor appreciation, and the members contributing are driving a Hyundai or worse a "1919 getoutandpush," there is a problem.... IMO....

[Shiny Penny]

Here is the thing: Even Paul used his trade as a tentmaker to support himself fiancially per scripture. Other moneys came (according to scripture) from what the people would give him. Was that wrong as well? And again, even Ellen White made her living from the sales of some to many of her writings and speaking engagements.

Where I would and do draw the line personally is when it comes to praying for people and healing: NO MAN OR WOMAN OF GOD SHOULD EVER CHARGE A FEE TO BE BLESSED OR HEALED!

My question for you is where should the money go then? For example, Joyce Meyers may make 250K annually plus perks, but all of her staff are paid at competitive salaries in comparison to secular arenas.

Beartrap is the one who should be answering your questions. I would be curious to know where he thinks the money should go.

Did I say anything was wrong? So you shouldn't ask me if I think something is "wrong as well." If I were advising Paul, I would say to skip the tent making and use the time to proclaim the kingdom of God. But for the sake of argument, if the Apostle Paul had the opportunity to take a salary and sell his books, I wonder how much he would take for himself. My inclination is to believe that he would have taken little and lived frugally. What do you think?

There are many in the Bible who were well to do - Joseph of Arimithea, Nicodemus, Boaz - but no indication that they made their money from or because of ministry.

Are you saying that Ellen White supported herself entirely from her writings and speaking engagements? I recall hearing somewhere along the line that she was a paid employee of the church (along with royalties and honorariums) and that when she died she was in debt.