Reaping The Whirl Wind, IRS Criminal Investigation of 3ABN Options

[Richard Sherwin]

I figured it must have been something along those lines. It's an interesting dilemma for sure and in some perverse way a little amusing. Thanks for sharing.

Briefly:

Look at a map, and follow the International Date Line (IDL) going from the North Pole to the South Pole. You will see that it generally goes in a strailght line. On one side of the IDL the day is called Saturday and on the other side it is called Sunday.

Now notice as you follow the IDL when it reaaches a group of islands in the Pacific, it does not continue in a straight line. It off in another direction, then continues south for a ways and follows that with a return to the same longitude it held in its origonal direction.

The result of the dog-leg is that in that area the day which otherwise would have been called Saturday is now called Sunday.

Here is waht happened:

Previously the IDL continued in a straight line going north to south. Business interests in that area of the islands objected and asked that the IDL be changed. It was changed in a manner that resulted in the day previously called Saturday now named Sunday. The Christiana community generally moved their worship services to this new Sunday. The SDAs continued to worship on the day previously named Saturday and now named Sunday. So, everybody now worships on the same day in that area.

Yes, there is a mimority group who criticizes this and says that the SDAs should have moved to the day previously named Friday and now named Saturday in order to set a proper example.

You just can not please everyone!

[jakann]

Yes, Christmas is already finished on this side of the line. But, I doubt if even Watchbird will have an answer to this dateline question:

Why are the names of the days of the week in Chinese, quite possibly the oldest language still in use on earth today, as follows:

Monday = "Hsin chi ee" = (week day) One
Tuesday = "Hsin chi er" = (week day) Two
Wednesday = "Hsin chi san" = (week day) Three
Thursday = "Hsin chi hsi" = (week day) Four
Friday = "Hsin chi u" = (week day) Five
Saturday = "Hsin chi liow" = (week day) Six

And Sunday is not numbered. So what's the seventh-day? When I first came here, and began learning the days of the week, I honestly thought perhaps we should be keeping Sunday over here. After all, it simply is a matter of which way the explorers travelled to get here, right? Or would that be wrong, considering the Great Division of the earth into continents shortly after the flood?

So....I got questions....who's got answers?

In the Chinese calendar the seventh day is Sunday, Hsin chi ri (Xingqi ri in Pinyin spelling). It means "weekday of the sun".

Amazing Facts has a good book on these issues title "The Law and the Sabbath" by Allen Walker. It was written maybe 50 years ago and is excellent.
Blessings!

[jakann]

But when it comes to that Good and Evil you mention, where do you draw that line separating the two? Is it always as simplistic as you make it sound?

For instance, a Express Mail carrier delivers snake anti-venom to the Adventist Hospital on a Saturday. The Express driver is a sinner because he works on Saturday.

However, as soon as the Express carrier crosses the Adventist Hospital property line and hands the anti-venom to the Adventist doctor at the Adventist Hospital, the anti-venom and the work of the Adventist doctor become part of God's own work.

At what instant in time did the sin of the Express Mail driver become God's work? Was it at the Adventist Hospital property line?

Can the Adventist Hospital even do God's work without the Express delivery service? I know several Adventists who would cast dispersion on the Express driver if they knew he was an Adventist and saw him making any Saturday deliveries. But, on the other hand, they would want that Adventist doctor on the church and school boards. The doctor might even be asked to be a board chairman of a religious broadcasting network.

So, I leave you with this question. If both the Adventist doctor and the Adventist Express driver die in an earthquake at exactly the same moment - right as the Express driver hands the anti-venom to the Adventist doctor at the Adventist Hospital -- what happens next?

Do both the dead Adventist doctor and the dead Express driver qualify for heaven?

Or, does the doctor go to heaven and the Express Mail driver go into the lake of fire because the Express driver was sinning at the moment he died, but the doctor wasn't sinning because the doctor was doing the Lords work at that same moment? Is salvation here based on which occupation Adventist culture reveres the most?

Does your personal Adventist culture have that much power that it can open and close the gates of heaven? The pope says his organization can do that - decide who goes where. Can we Adventists open and close the gates of heaven, too, if we decide we can based on what occupations we value?

These are some questions I have thought about over the years.

In summary, I do wonder if you and I are talking about the difference between Good and Evil or if we're really talking about the differences between Adventist Culture versus the Societal Culture around us. If it's the latter, then I don't feel that it is necessary for us to have all the answers, since societal values change over time. For instance, one decade North American Adventists are not wearing wedding rings, the next decade I see some are. Do we really need to label the sans-wedding-ring situation "Good" and the other add-wedding-ring situation "Evil." I don't think we are required to make judgment calls on social norms like that one and I think that there are some other issues that are along this same line.

Interesting thoughts you put forth. I've thought about these as well. We need to be careful that we don't try to solve too many of the "Can God make a rock so big that He can't lift it?" hypothetical situations. I.e. "You are on a deserted island, starving, and two pigs swim to shore. Would you kill and eat them?" etc. Whatever the situation, God will give wisdom if we ask for it. He is not interested in letting the sincere seeker of truth willfully die in sin.
The driver of the Express delivery would be a good example of us not judging. By his actions, he seemed to us be doing a good deed in delivering the anti-venom. But where was his heart? That's what God looks at.
Did the doctor heal the patient? Good. But did he take and keep pay for his services on the Sabbath? Hmmmmmm.
Interesting stuff.
jakann

[Richard Sherwin]

Where in the Bible does it say the doctor should not receive pay for working on the Sabbath? Jesus said to do good on the Sabbath, He didn't say it had to be for free, not does EGW that I'm aware of.

Interesting thoughts you put forth. I've thought about these as well. We need to be careful that we don't try to solve too many of the "Can God make a rock so big that He can't lift it?" hypothetical situations. I.e. "You are on a deserted island, starving, and two pigs swim to shore. Would you kill and eat them?" etc. Whatever the situation, God will give wisdom if we ask for it. He is not interested in letting the sincere seeker of truth willfully die in sin.
The driver of the Express delivery would be a good example of us not judging. By his actions, he seemed to us be doing a good deed in delivering the anti-venom. But where was his heart? That's what God looks at.
Did the doctor heal the patient? Good. But did he take and keep pay for his services on the Sabbath? Hmmmmmm.
Interesting stuff.
jakann

[Observer]

Where in the Bible does it say the doctor should not receive pay for working on the Sabbath? Jesus said to do good on the Sabbath, He didn't say it had to be for free, not does EGW that I'm aware of.

Richard, Exactly.

There was once a sDA hospital in another country that decided not to charge people for care given on the Sabbath as they believed that this would be a witness to the Biblical truth about the SAbbath.

The word got out, and the Sabbath became the day that they had the greateset patient load. They were overworked by people who intaentionally waited to come for help on the Sabbath.

The result, they began to bill people for Sabbath services, and the patient load decreased.

[Richard Sherwin]

You wouldn't have to be a prophet to see that coming Just a person with common sense.

Richard, Exactly.

There was once a sDA hospital in another country that decided not to charge people for care given on the Sabbath as they believed that this would be a witness to the Biblical truth about the SAbbath.

The word got out, and the Sabbath became the day that they had the greateset patient load. They were overworked by people who intaentionally waited to come for help on the Sabbath.

The result, they began to bill people for Sabbath services, and the patient load decreased.

[Green Cochoa]

Some would charge (at weekend rates) and then donate the proceeds to the church in a special offering. This has the triple benefit of 1) reducing patient load on the Sabbath, 2) benefiting the church treasury, and 3) protecting against one's own selfishness or ambition from dis-hallowing the sacred hours of the Sabbath.

Greenie.

[Observer]

Some would charge (at weekend rates) and then donate the proceeds to the church in a special offering. This has the triple benefit of 1) reducing patient load on the Sabbath, 2) benefiting the church treasury, and 3) protecting against one's own selfishness or ambition from dis-hallowing the sacred hours of the Sabbath.

Greenie.

It sounds good, but:

I have seen peoplee who acknowedge that they are performing some type of work on the Sabbath that God would not want them to do. But, they justify it by donating the Sabbath income to the chruch. That way they keep their job.

The bottom line is that the Sabbath commandment does not factor in whether or not one is paid, or donates to the church. The Sabbath commandment, fully understood, divides work into that which is prohibited, and that which is allowed.

If the work performed is against the Sabbath commandment, God does not want the income from that which God has prohibited.

Let me see, the 7th Commandment prohibits certain sexual activities. O. K. Does that mean that one can hire themselves out to perform those activities as long as one gives the income derived from performing those activities to the Chruch? Astounding what some people will do to justify what they do.

By the way, do not think I am way out in left field. There once was a stripper who, as part of her act, asked people to accept Christ and attend chruch. She was well known for that.

[awesumtenor]

By the way, do not think I am way out in left field. There once was a stripper who, as part of her act, asked people to accept Christ and attend chruch. She was well known for that.

They should have had her take up tithes and offering... who cares if it would have been mostly dollar bills...

Yeah, I know...

In His service,
Mr. J

[Green Cochoa]

It sounds good, but:

I have seen peoplee who acknowedge that they are performing some type of work on the Sabbath that God would not want them to do. But, they justify it by donating the Sabbath income to the chruch. That way they keep their job.

The bottom line is that the Sabbath commandment does not factor in whether or not one is paid, or donates to the church. The Sabbath commandment, fully understood, divides work into that which is prohibited, and that which is allowed.

If the work performed is against the Sabbath commandment, God does not want the income from that which God has prohibited.

Let me see, the 7th Commandment prohibits certain sexual activities. O. K. Does that mean that one can hire themselves out to perform those activities as long as one gives the income derived from performing those activities to the Chruch? Astounding what some people will do to justify what they do.

By the way, do not think I am way out in left field. There once was a stripper who, as part of her act, asked people to accept Christ and attend chruch. She was well known for that.

I'm not sure you understood my intent, so let me clarify.

I do not mean to say that medical care is work which should not be done on the Sabbath. Jesus clearly did medical work on the Sabbath. However, did He ever accept payment for it? The question of payment is not so much a question of breaking or not breaking the Sabbath, but a question of what it will do to our own attitudes and how that will change our own motives.

If you preach a good sermon, and a member says to you afterwards, "Pastor, that was a tremendous message! Well done!"--is that wrong? Perhaps, in a strict sense, no. But it can lead you to feel proud. Was it a sin to hear those words? Of course not. Neither is it a sin to receive payment for medical care. Is it a sin to be proud? Yes. It is also a sin to focus on one's own selfish desires (such as earning money) on the Sabbath. (Isaiah 58:13-14)

It is not a sin to accept payment. It is not a sin to hear words of congratulation. But to protect oneself from allowing these things to lead him or her astray, it can be very helpful to choose to defer the payment/credit to God. I am not saying that everyone will be weak, nor that everyone must do this in order to keep from sinning...I'm only saying that it is good preventive medicine. "Let him that thinketh he stand take heed lest he fall."

Blessings and Happy Sabbath!

Greenie.

[jakann]

Where in the Bible does it say the doctor should not receive pay for working on the Sabbath? Jesus said to do good on the Sabbath, He didn't say it had to be for free, not does EGW that I'm aware of.

Richard,
Well, I'm curious to find out if EGW did say anything on this. Richard, were you able to find anything on it in your research? But, if it turns out that EGW did say that doctors should not pocket the money from work performed on Sabbath, what would both you and Observer's responses be?
Sabbath blessings!

[princessdi]

If there was no biblical support for the statement, should it be found in her writings. I would disregard the statement. There were Drs. in Jesus day, if he didn't feel the need to comment, then there is no need for anyone else to comment either.

Richard,
Well, I'm curious to find out if EGW did say anything on this. Richard, were you able to find anything on it in your research? But, if it turns out that EGW did say that doctors should not pocket the money from work performed on Sabbath, what would both you and Observer's responses be?
Sabbath blessings!

[Artiste]

Richard,
Well, I'm curious to find out if EGW did say anything on this. Richard, were you able to find anything on it in your research? But, if it turns out that EGW did say that doctors should not pocket the money from work performed on Sabbath, what would both you and Observer's responses be?
Sabbath blessings!

EGW did say that it would be a good idea for doctors to donate the income from patient care that they had to do on the Sabbath, partially so as not to have an incentive to do extra work during that day as I remember. I ran across this some years ago and do not remember offhand the reference.

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[Richard Sherwin]

I really don't think you will find it, and if you do in what context? But if she were to say it I would of course reconsider my stance.

I've been around the medical field for most of my life, though I've never been in it except for doing hospital maintenance, and I've never seen any quotes saying that medical workers should give their Sabbath pay to God. Seems pretty extreme to ask a person working 40 hours a week to turn over 8 hours pay when he can barely make ends meet.

Richard,
Well, I'm curious to find out if EGW did say anything on this. Richard, were you able to find anything on it in your research? But, if it turns out that EGW did say that doctors should not pocket the money from work performed on Sabbath, what would both you and Observer's responses be?
Sabbath blessings!

[Artiste]

I really don't think you will find it, and if you do in what context? But if she were to say it I would of course reconsider my stance.

I've been around the medical field for most of my life, though I've never been in it except for doing hospital maintenance, and I've never seen any quotes saying that medical workers should give their Sabbath pay to God. Seems pretty extreme to ask a person working 40 hours a week to turn over 8 hours pay when he can barely make ends meet.

Richard, I did read the above (see my last post), no doubt about it... but you make a good point; it was only referring to physicians.


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