Factually Challenged?, Has Walt Thompson got the inside track or outside dilusion? Options

[Johann]

I don't know Dr. Walt personally, but I know people who fit the kind of description Johann has provided. I've also had the privilege to know people who have served the Truth their whole lives in much the same way. Loyalty is a very high value to people from Walt's generation, whether that's loyalty to friends, or especially loyalty to the Adventist denomination. It's also a strong characteristic for these fathers and mothers in the church not to want to see scandal even when it exists within the body of Christ. IOW they'd rather deny their own senses than see the damage to the reputation of The Work.

These characteristics are admirable, but unfortunately for many of our spiritual leaders, these characteristics have to come after facts and Biblical ethics of greater worth. [color="#000080"][/color]

One of Danny Shelton's great defenders from that generation - who was doing some voluntary work in connction with 3ABN at the time - told me this story. It was given verbally, so I am just reciting from memory.

This defender - D from here on - served in the misssion field as a foreign missionary. There they had a native great preacher, and they were going to launch a huge evangelistic campaign with this man when it was discovered he had two wives, living in two different cities, and each having children with him. It was also discovered that this man had arranged for some criminal acts, including liquidation of people who were in his way. What should they do?

The evangelist pleaded to let him have at least this one more campaign, and that he would bring many souls to the Lord. So the campaign was held and more than a hundred souls were brought to the church.

- There you see, said D, if the Lord could use a man llike that, then he can also use Mr. Danny Shelton, regardless of what he has done.

This post has been edited by Johann: Jan 15 2008, 09:07 PM

[Ian]

One of Danny Shelton's great defenders from that generation told me this story. It was given verbally, so I am just reciting from memory.

This defender - D from here on - served in the misssion field as a foreign missionary. There they had a native great preacher, and they were going to launch a huge evangelistic campaign with this man when it was discovered he had two wives, living in two different cities, and each having children with him. It was also discovered that this man had arranged for some criminal acts, including liquidation of people who were in his way. What should they do?

The evangelist pleaded to let him have at least this one more campaign, and that he would bring many souls to the Lord. So the campaign was held and more than a hundred souls were brought to the church.

- There you see, said D, if the Lord could use a man llike that, then he can also use Mr. Danny Shelton, regardless of what he has done.

I have a hard time believing any true defender who has a love for the truth would ever say such.

Have you considered posting your stories in Sister's drama thread?



This post has been edited by Ian: Jan 15 2008, 09:15 PM

[Johann]

I have a hard time believing any true defender who has a love for the truth would ever say such.

Have you considered posting your stories in Sister's drama thread?

I had a hard time believing this person would use this story to defend Danny, especially because it is a person I have known and admired for many years. Had several contacts while I was working for 3ABN. What does one not do in desperation? That person was at that time filling an important function in connection with 3ABN. I see no reason to now, but I have the name, address, and phone number of the person who told me this story.

Sister has plenty of other first person experiences to tell without this one.

This post has been edited by Johann: Jan 15 2008, 09:43 PM

[inga]

I can well believe Johann's story.

Unfortunately that sort of attitude is too commonly found among us. It's not just among Danny and his suppporters.

[Edited to clarify and elaborate] By "that sort of attitude" I mean the attitude that the end justifies the means. Danny takes this attitude one step further than most. He has argued repeatedly that since persons are coming to the Lord through the ministry of 3ABN, that means that 3ABN and Danny are innocent of any wrong-doing. In fact, it has been extended to mean that all their doings are blessed of the Lord.

This story by Johann can just as well be used to illustrate that the "end" (i.e. conversions) do not prove that the evangelist/ministry is innocent of wrong-doing. They may be doing very horrible and immoral things, and the Lord works through them in spite of them. Does this mean that we should ensure their continued role as representatives of God's truth, as Johann's source implies?

I don't think so. Jesus said the very stones would cry out if the children did not shout His praises. In the same manner, today the Lord has a thousand ways to do His work of which we know nothing. And He would be able to bless so much more abundantly if we put our trust in Him and refused to go along with lies and deception.

Gailon Joy strikes me as a very conservative man. He sees issues as black and white, and he held out stubbornly for years, refusing to believe that Danny could be guilty of the things that Johann reported. But when the evidence was overwhelming, he had the courage to do something to change matters. Walt Thompson says that his son and others (presumably including the defenders of Danny on this list) were willing to risk everything in defense of the truth (as they understand it). I have a hard time 'seeing' what they risked. But what Gailon and Bob risked is clear enough. Gailon has suffered huge financial losses because he wasn't paying enough attention to his business, due to being distracted by 3ABN matters. This led to his following counsel to declare bankruptcy. He and Bob have invested huge amounts of time and significant amounts of money to defend themselves against a law suit by Danny and 3ABN who have virtually unlimited funds for legal harassment. Neither Gailon Joy nor Bob Pickle had anything to gain by exposing the evidence they found of moral corruption at the very top of 3ABN leadership.

By contrast, Danny has a rather significant stake in this matter. He has a very lucrative source of income to protect. He invokes the name of God and the work of God to protect his position, and he uses the argument that the end justifies the means -- that the conversion of souls justifies whatever he has done or is currently doing, irrespective of the laws of God or of the land.

Rather than just wringing our hands over the matter, I suspect some of us could help out financially by contributing to the legal defense fund for Gailon Joy and Bob Pickle.

Rather than just wringing our hands over the matter, we might well investigate our own hearts to see if we fall for the temptation to think that the end justifies the means in our own dealings.

I understand that the Lord is looking for men and women who will stand for the right though the heavens fall -- not just when we discuss 3ABN matters, but in our own personal lives.

Are we willing to be such men and women?

One of Danny Shelton's great defenders from that generation - who was doing some voluntary work in connction with 3ABN at the time - told me this story. It was given verbally, so I am just reciting from memory.

This defender - D from here on - served in the misssion field as a foreign missionary. There they had a native great preacher, and they were going to launch a huge evangelistic campaign with this man when it was discovered he had two wives, living in two different cities, and each having children with him. It was also discovered that this man had arranged for some criminal acts, including liquidation of people who were in his way. What should they do?

The evangelist pleaded to let him have at least this one more campaign, and that he would bring many souls to the Lord. So the campaign was held and more than a hundred souls were brought to the church.

- There you see, said D, if the Lord could use a man llike that, then he can also use Mr. Danny Shelton, regardless of what he has done.

This post has been edited by inga: Jan 24 2008, 11:05 AM

[Seraphim7]

I can well believe Johann's story.

Unfortunately that sort of attitude is too commonly found among us. It's not just among Danny and his suppporters.

[Edited to clarify and elaborate] By "that sort of attitude" I mean the attitude that the end justifies the means. Danny takes this attitude one step further than most. He has argued repeatedly that since persons are coming to the Lord through the ministry of 3ABN, that means that 3ABN and Danny are innocent of any wrong-doing. In fact, it has been extended to mean that all their doings are blessed of the Lord.

This story by Johann can just as well be used to illustrate that the "end" (i.e. conversions) do not prove that the evangelist/ministry is innocent of wrong-doing. They may be doing very horrible and immoral things, and the Lord works through them in spite of them. Does this mean that we should ensure their continued role as representatives of God's truth, as Johann's source implies?

...

I understand that the Lord is looking for men and women who will stand for the right though the heavens fall -- not just when we discuss 3ABN matters, but in our own personal lives.

Are we willing to be such men and women?

In light of what you have stated I wonder how many people here have read the account in scripture regarding Eli/Samuel and Eli's sons in 1Sam?

[inga]

In light of what you have stated I wonder how many people here have read the account in scripture regarding Eli/Samuel and Eli's sons in 1Sam?

A relevant story, indeed, Sera.

Eli himself was not doing anything particularly evil, but he did nothing effectual to stop his sons from flagrantly dishonoring the service of God. The story demonstrates how God views such "bystander" behavior.

H'mm ... food for thought ...

Inga

This post has been edited by inga: Jan 31 2008, 11:42 AM

[PeacefulBe]

Or how about Romans 12?

1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.



I read this this morning and it has some wonderful counsel for every one of us.

[Seraphim7]

A relevant story, indeed, Sera.

Eli himself was not doing anything particularly evil, but he did nothing effectual to stop his sons from flagrantly dishonoring the service of God. The story demonstrates how God views such "bystander" behavior.

H'mm ... food for thought ...

Inga

As I understand it, Eli condoned his sons sexual misconduct and extortion, by default when he refused to reign them in. As those who ministered in the temple to God on behalf of the people their behavior misrepresented and brought shame to that "ministry". Not to mention their fathers blatant disregard of their behavior, by his inaction, speaks to his unwillingness to call sin by it's right name and correct the issue or sit his boys down. They ALL died and their line was cut off, as God promised it would be, because Eli refused to do hold his sons, who were in the mininistry, to the standard that God set. Is there a lesson in this for us?

[Johann]

Or how about Romans 12?

1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
3 For by the grace given me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the measure of faith God has given you. 4 Just as each of us has one body with many members, and these members do not all have the same function, 5 so in Christ we who are many form one body, and each member belongs to all the others. 6 We have different gifts, according to the grace given us. If a man's gift is prophesying, let him use it in proportion to his faith. 7 If it is serving, let him serve; if it is teaching, let him teach; 8 if it is encouraging, let him encourage; if it is contributing to the needs of others, let him give generously; if it is leadership, let him govern diligently; if it is showing mercy, let him do it cheerfully.

9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. 10 Be devoted to one another in brotherly love. Honor one another above yourselves. 11 Never be lacking in zeal, but keep your spiritual fervor, serving the Lord. 12 Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. 13 Share with God's people who are in need. Practice hospitality.
14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.



I read this this morning and it has some wonderful counsel for every one of us.

This is a great devotional, PB, and a Divine word we must follow, but we must follow all of it. It is balanced, and does not permit us to condone evil practiced by our fellow believers.

So why not encourage one of the parties to drop an evil and unscripural court case?

[PeacefulBe]

This is a great devotional, PB, and a Divine word we must follow, but we must follow all of it. It is balanced, and does not permit us to condone evil practiced by our fellow believers.

So why not encourage one of the parties to drop an evil and unscripural court case?

I agree, Johann. We have straight testimony in 1 Corinthians 5:9 - 13 of what we are to do:

9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you



I like the way Paul puts it in Romans 12: 17 - 21:

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I can go and email one of the 3abn leaders and encourage them to drop the case because I, like many others, have Walt Thompson's email address. However, I have no more clout than any one of the other members here on BSDA.

Jeanette

[Pickle]

I can go and email one of the 3abn leaders and encourage them to drop the case because I, like many others, have Walt Thompson's email address. However, I have no more clout than any one of the other members here on BSDA.

Jeanette

At least you haven't had an attorney for the other side complain to the judge that you were contacting 3ABNers, and then have the judge tell you you can't do that. At least you can write him.

This post has been edited by Pickle: Jan 31 2008, 06:34 PM

[Ian]

At least you haven't had an attorney for the other side complain to the judge that you were contacting 3ABNers, and then have the judge tell you you can't do that. At least you can write him.

Hmmm.... Interesting...

Perhaps you could contact their Attorneys instead, as they are representing them, and this is a legal case?

Just a thought...

[Pickle]

And demand that they arrange a conference call with the plaintiffs? I've thought about that, but I'm not sure that's the proper protocol.

[PeacefulBe]

And demand that they arrange a conference call with the plaintiffs? I've thought about that, but I'm not sure that's the proper protocol.

Perhaps you would be more successful if, instead of demanding, you were to use the magic word "please" instead.

[Dona]

I agree, Johann. We have straight testimony in 1 Corinthians 5:9 - 13 of what we are to do:

9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you
I like the way Paul puts it in Romans 12: 17 - 21:

17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19 Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord. 20 On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

I can go and email one of the 3abn leaders and encourage them to drop the case because I, like many others, have Walt Thompson's email address. However, I have no more clout than any one of the other members here on BSDA.

Jeanette

PB, while reading the quote from Rom. Chapt. 12 verse 19 reminded me of Rom. 1:18 onward where we are told what God’s wrath is. I believe the text says "God's wrath is revealed." For some reason I am not able to access Blue Letter Bible to copy and quote here, so I will try to summarize. God’s wrath is when we do our own thing on and on and give Him no choice but to turn us over to or give us up to our own choices; a reprobate mind. We then suffer the consequences of our own choices.

Dona