Is The Cure Worse, than the sickness? Options

[LaurenceD]

We've only been keeping track of weather details, in a comprhensive and more complete way, for only a short time, maybe a hundred years or so, and there is no record in the ice cores that confirms hurricanes and tornado activity, but we do know about the "little ice age" a few hundred years ago, and the year w/o a summer in the early 1800s.

The one that really bothers me though, from that EGW quote, is "cloudbursts" being a sign of the end. That should have gotten edited out, IMO.

No prophet here though, so I'll venture to guess that what SDAs felt in the late 1800's was not much different than what the apostles (esp Paul) felt and wrote about nearly two thousand years ago...as time was also viewed as being short. And, If I were to guess, I'd say we're on the verge of another ice age. As the planet warms, we know the ocean currents get warmer and causes more rain to fall inland, esp in the tropic and semi-tropic areas. But, up north it turns to more snow...which causes the glaciers to expand towards the tropics. I expect Canada (sorry Daryl) will be covered in less than 200 years as the snow accumulates and refuses to melt in the summers.

Weather. It just goes back and forth it seems.

[princessdi]

This might happen if there were only Adventist in the way..........Ever heard of Super Bowl Sunday? Not to mention all the other Sundays filled iwth NFL games. Do you really think it will be Super Bowl Saturday next year? And will they crunch NFL in with the College game on Saturyda? A lot more money and power behind the NFL and Madison Avenue..............we haven't even talked about baseball.........Then there are AL those reatialers...........

yes Richard, AMEN........ I watched the convocation from Heartland this weekend, and as the pastors relayed to the congregation, this trip of the Pope to Washington DC....they want the Sunday as the Lords Day to become law before Bush leaves office..........OH PEOPLE............you have to see this as the sign the Sunday Sabbath law is coming so soon................JESUS IS COMING............

[daylily]

Tornados are averaging over 1000 per year in the US, compared to 300 in the 50's. Two or three weeks ago there was a news story that stated that weather is getting worse world wide, just as has been predicted.

The Catholic church is gaining more and more power in the US and world, just as has been predicted. And yes I know there are those who don't believe that the papacy has any role in prophesy. People can believe what they wish.

I have no idea if Christ is coming back next year or 50 years from now, but there are things happening that have been predicted, prophesy is being fulfilled. But we as Christians are ignoring the signs. So be it.

I don't have any idea how this quote got here in the Reply Box!

I don't understand why the coming of Jesus is a doom and gloom topic! Quite frankly, I am excited about it. I don't look forward to the troubles before He comes but I will be SO glad when this world is over and done with.

Rev 10 talks about the Great Disappointment. God was not taken by surprise and knew all about it beforehand. Rev 10:11 tells us that "Thou must prophesy AGAIN". That comes after John ate the little book and it was bitter in his belly. "Again" is now!!

It's not an either/or situation. We are to develop a relationship with God, love our neighbors AND prophesy again about His coming. Rev 16:15.....having the righteousness of Christ is especially important in the context of the second coming.

Maybe in the EGW quote about cloudbursts, she was referring to the cloudburst at Johnstown, PA. She was there. So much rain came suddenly that the dam broke and destroyed the town. She had to find a way to get to campmeeting and avoid the high water.

Princes Di, Have you heard of the World's Fair Columbus exposition to honor the anniversary of 1492? There was a great lobbying effort to have it shut down on Sunday, in spite of all the commercial interests in having it open on Sunday. This was in 1892. Congress passed a bill that they would only donate the money that they had planned to donate in the Fair was closed on Sunday. So Congress was moved to act by intense lobbying.

Whoever would have thought that the little dude from Macedonia would conquer the world? Whoever would have thought that the little village on the Tiber River would conquer the world? Prophesy has a way of happening against all odds and expectations.

Daylily

[Richard Sherwin]

I agree, it seems impossible that there could ever be a Sunday Law, but if the law were to be written as a way as having families come together then yes I could see them still having the family time of watching football, NASCAR and baseball. Or if there were to be a national emergency the games could easily be suspended, i.e. the aftermath of 9-11. Of course none of us have any idea how things will come about, or when. But to some extent I think we have an idea of what.

This might happen if there were only Adventist in the way..........Ever heard of Super Bowl Sunday? Not to mention all the other Sundays filled iwth NFL games. Do you really think it will be Super Bowl Saturday next year? And will they crunch NFL in with the College game on Saturyda? A lot more money and power behind the NFL and Madison Avenue..............we haven't even talked about baseball.........Then there are AL those reatialers...........

[princessdi]

.....and how many congressmen were bought and paid for by commecial intersts in 1892? Not to say that if a group really rallied their force could accomplish such a thing. However, with the growth os big buisness has come the growth of special interest and their lobbyingpower....the NRA to anme just one. It might happen, but I am saying I dont' believe it will happen before Dec 31,2008.

Plus I am with Awesumtenor. We always get excited when the Pope comes to Washington, or our presidents go to the Vatican.

Princes Di, Have you heard of the World's Fair Columbus exposition to honor the anniversary of 1492? There was a great lobbying effort to have it shut down on Sunday, in spite of all the commercial interests in having it open on Sunday. This was in 1892. Congress passed a bill that they would only donate the money that they had planned to donate in the Fair was closed on Sunday. So Congress was moved to act by intense lobbying.

Whoever would have thought that the little dude from Macedonia would conquer the world? Whoever would have thought that the little village on the Tiber River would conquer the world? Prophesy has a way of happening against all odds and expectations.

Daylily

[princessdi]

Then I am going to throw this thing in the mix...........Why do we thinkt hat satan will follow the game plan we set for him, or we believe God set for him(afterall we are not the only ones who believe we have figured out the plan), after giving him ALL this time to know the plan.

[Clay]

Then I am going to throw this thing in the mix...........Why do we thinkt hat satan will follow the game plan we set for him, or we believe God set for him(afterall we are not the only ones who believe we have figured out the plan), after giving him ALL this time to know the plan.

because some people think very concretely, allowing for no deviation to the plan... people who think in that manner are quite surprised when the script is flipped....

[princessdi]

Well, I am jes' askin', cuz as far we are concerned Lucifer was the first disobedinet being, and still is to this day. Why do we think he will obey what the Bible says now, or what we interpret it to say. We all looking for this red hat with vertain lettering on it and he will have the pope put on a green one, with his email address---plan just blown all the way out the water. LOL!!!

because some people think very concretely, allowing for no deviation to the plan... people who think in that manner are quite surprised when the script is flipped....

[YogusBearus]

For the last however many years there have been heated discussions about Danny Shelton and 3abn. This has covered a host of others including Tommy Shelton and Linda Shelton. It's gone on and on to the point of lawsuits and threatened lawsuits, accounts of child molestation, IRS cheating, wrongful firings, mental illness, etc etc. It's getting to the point that there is no longer any point. We've had defenders and accusers attacking each other all over the internet and in court, but at least not yet in the nations news rooms. Not yet.

My questions is at what point has the medicine and the dispensing of it become worse for the church than the illness? Or has it already? Is there ever a point when both sides need to just come together as Christians, lay down their swords and get on with the work of spreading the gospel. Is the cure killing us instead of the sickness?

The anonymous nature of the internet has done much harm in these discussion. I expect that if it was required that everyone post under their own names there would be much less posting and the posts would be much more civil and Christ like. If the people who post knew who they were talking to maybe a bit more love and a bit less hatred would show through. The animosity shown to each other on these and countless other boards is not of Christ.

Maybe the time has come when we need to, with the Holy Spirit leading begin the process of turning our swords into plowshares. It's time to get on with the mission of being fishermen, not assassins.

Thanks for your thoughtful post Richard. I wanted to watch for a bit and see what type of dialogue would develop from your start. Alas, other than the reference to "cleansing the temple" we now appear to be discussing the validity of SDA last day events scenarios.

So here we are several years into the process of cleansing the temple that neither we nor the church own or have any control over. We obviously aren't content to let God take care of it or we think that this is some special calling we have been charged with. The escalation of hostility and spite continues. A very few individuals work tirelessly to incite all the hatred and meanness possible. One wonders after awhile, what really is the point of this? When this battle is done, what is the next one going to be? It's hard to imagine that the thirst for blood is going to be quenched with the humiliation of Danny Shelton.


-bear

[GRAT]

In my experience through the years our church has called wolf way to many times. To many "this is it folks, the fulfilling of prophesy". I remember hearing a sermon at campmeeting in the late '60s when I was in high school. The preacher stood and said that the laws they were trying to pass for racial equality were going to bring in the Sunday laws. It was all written in the law and all it had to do was be signed and it was all over. (I remember being scared to death.) There is usually no "this appears to be". I'm not saying the things that are happening now are not prophesy being fulfilled. I just think we need to be careful and not see the boogyman behind every rock.

[Richard Sherwin]

We do tend to get OT do we not? Thanks for the post. My reply:

Is the battle worth the slaughter? Even if the critics win (whatever that means) is the gain worth the carnage that has been left on the field of battle? A year or two ago I would have said yes, but as the battle has waged on it seems that the whole point of this war has been lost in the rush to belittle, hurt and crush by unethical tactics, threats, rumors etc. It seems like maybe the time has come to make peace and let bygones be bygones.

Thanks for your thoughtful post Richard. I wanted to watch for a bit and see what type of dialogue would develop from your start. Alas, other than the reference to "cleansing the temple" we now appear to be discussing the validity of SDA last day events scenarios.

So here we are several years into the process of cleansing the temple that neither we nor the church own or have any control over. We obviously aren't content to let God take care of it or we think that this is some special calling we have been charged with. The escalation of hostility and spite continues. A very few individuals work tirelessly to incite all the hatred and meanness possible. One wonders after awhile, what really is the point of this? When this battle is done, what is the next one going to be? It's hard to imagine that the thirst for blood is going to be quenched with the humiliation of Danny Shelton.


-bear

[Richard Sherwin]

As I said it could happen this year or 50 years from now. However it does seem in just the last few years that there has been an escalation in the frequency of world events pointing to the 2nd coming of Christ.

In my experience through the years our church has called wolf way to many times. To many "this is it folks, the fulfilling of prophesy". I remember hearing a sermon at campmeeting in the late '60s when I was in high school. The preacher stood and said that the laws they were trying to pass for racial equality were going to bring in the Sunday laws. It was all written in the law and all it had to do was be signed and it was all over. (I remember being scared to death.) There is usually no "this appears to be". I'm not saying the things that are happening now are not prophesy being fulfilled. I just think we need to be careful and not see the boogyman behind every rock.

[PeacefulBe]

Along with the ebb and flow of weather patterns and cycles, there has also been an ebb and flow in the behaviors of humans on this planet. There have been periods of peace, times of horrific wars and insane cruelty, ages of brutality and brotherhood. Man has evolved and learned and then turned around and demonstrated the incredible ability to deny the human value of those around him.

I'm not discounting prophecy or the important roll it plays for those of us who believe in the reasons it was given to us. My opinion is that the value of it has been distorted and misused. How many children have gotten that overwhelming lump in their little throats caused by fear because of seeing final events portrayed the way they have been? Instead of relishing the thought of that cloud of angels and Jesus bursting through the fabric of our atmosphere, the thought of it shakes the stability of their small worlds. In my 57 years I have heard, since I could understand rudimentary concepts, that such and so happening means it is the time of the end and "They" are all going to be after us. How many adults get that very same fear?

Nothing will stand in the way when conditions are right for the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation to be fulfilled in their entirety. I have no doubt that this world, in spite of the power of Madison Avenue and many countries striving for personal freedom and common sense, could rapidly transform from a place of relative stability into a world ready to cast off all long held principals of justice if desperation were deep enough.

When every papal movement brings a clarion call that the Sunday Law is upon us, when every conflict in the Middle East invokes the solemn warning of doom, when every disaster becomes a final landmark to the end and then the skies don't part, many are in danger of rolling over and hitting the snooze button. I agree with Clay and all others who cite that the important thing is that daily readiness through our relationship with Jesus.

It's fine to study and attempt to understand the prophecies that point to the end of time, but it is my opinion that to repeatedly use world events as a call to intone the same dire words "It's a sign of the end" as we have for these last 160+ years is as counter productive as the little boy crying "Wolf!" When it really counts, we will be ignored.

[LaurenceD]

I had heard that the blue laws were on their way out of this country, although a few still remained for some reason, but this article in wikipedia brings us a little more up to date.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_law

Interestingly enough, the folks who are holding out for a closed section of town in Bergen Co. NJ still uphold the rule because of it's usefulness in lowering traffic for a day. They've gotten spoiled, that's all, nothing religious.

In Texas, car dealers can choose which day they want to be closed...either Saturday or Sunday.

According to KVIA-TV El Paso, as recently as March 2006, Texas judges were still ruling to uphold the state Blue Law that requires car dealerships to close one day each weekend. They must now choose to open either Saturday or Sunday.

[PeacefulBe]

We do tend to get OT do we not? Thanks for the post. My reply:

Is the battle worth the slaughter? Even if the critics win (whatever that means) is the gain worth the carnage that has been left on the field of battle? A year or two ago I would have said yes, but as the battle has waged on it seems that the whole point of this war has been lost in the rush to belittle, hurt and crush by unethical tactics, threats, rumors etc. It seems like maybe the time has come to make peace and let bygones be bygones.

Absolutely not! There was a period of time when I thought some great good was going to come out of this exercise. Providing an opportunity for Duane Clem to finally break out of the denial he had been living under was a victory, IMO. Bob Pickle was instrumental in providing Duane that opportunity. I pray that he will continue on the journey to complete recovery that is fully possible through God's strength.

But something happened. Was it desperation or a lack of faith in God's power to fight the battle that led to the tossing out of principle, to the embracing of the ends justifies the means strategy? Or was that always the plan and I just didn't see it for a time? Sadly, a few lined up behind this battle plan, even encouraged it, and we were quickly seeing the shift from any semblance of looking for the truth to a calculated seeking of who next to destroy.

Richard, I was thrilled to see your "Aha!" moment this weekend, and then I was so proud of your statement at the beginning of this thread.

There are questions that need to be settled. I'm not talking about the whether or not the divorce was biblical. If Linda was truly betrayed by her husband, she may have to wait with the rest of us who have been unjustly maligned for vindication when all things are made plain in heaven. Marriages fail, and that's sad. People lie about things, and that's also sad. There are government agencies that can deal with financial malfeasance if, indeed, it has gone on. Perhaps this lawsuit will bring some clarity.

What needed to be settled and likely now won't be are the questions of abuse. Are there truly victims of pastoral abuse out there and was their abuse covered up by the alleged abuser's kin? After so much spin and manipulation, I'm afraid that the only ones who can now know that answer for sure are those who have alleged the abuse, the one who is alleged to be an abuser and God. Now, there is little hope that Tommy Shelton will be either fully vindicated as an innocent, maligned man or be shown to be a predator. This is the real defeat in this whole mess.

As time has passed, it has been revealed that many who are engaging in this controversy have axes to grind. Some are completely apparent, others are known only to those who happen to know the identities and connections of some of the key players.

We said we were here looking for truth. Somewhere back a fur piece we took a wrong turn.

This post has been edited by PeacefulBe: Jan 28 2008, 10:31 PM