Rumors, Lies, & False Accusations Travel With Joy, Confronting AT and Gailon with Truth Options

[Ian]

Greg, "Sister's" credibility has been established by the many items about which she first wrote that were later established to be factual by evidence documented by others. Sure there are many things left uncorroborated. But time is on her side ...

So far she has a pretty good track record.

Since I have seen zero documentation, or proof, I would say she's batting zero...
Inga from what I can tell you are always throwing out these unsupported claims, and never bother to support them. It's hard to just accept your opinions as facts, and as you are referring to what is posted and public, it should be easy to do so..

You claim "Sister's" credibility has been established by the many items about which she first wrote that were later established to be factual by evidence documented by others."

If there are many then I am sure you can supply, one incident where documentation backed up anything she's claimed. If not you may want to consider correcting what you have said, or just stopping yourself from making these kind of unsupported claims in future.

By contrast, some of you Danny-defenders don't look so good. Many statements from Danny's side have been demonstrated to be creative spin if not total fabrications.

Really? I don't think so. Again, we would need an example and documentation here...

So ... who do you expect us to believe?

Good question, are we to believe you ,when you just throw these things out and don't back them up with anything?




This post has been edited by Ian: Mar 8 2008, 10:51 PM

[Ian]

Here's the problems, I have.

1. Simple crediblity. We know Johann, who he is and his relationship, apst and present to the principles(Danny and Linda) involved. You just imforned everyone that you have know intention of telling anyone who you are or your true relationship to Danny or Linda past or present. He was actually invovled and/or a principle in many of the situation being discussed. That fact is not disputed by either side.

Do you really know him, Diane? The actual facts are his involvement has been disputed by every single person from 3ABN who really does know him, or has ever addressed him or this situation such as Danny Shelton, Dr Thompson, and Dr Kuzma, etc. as well as every single member here who has posted here expressing their disagreement with the man. All consistently tell him he doesn't know as he wasn't there and has been deceived. The majority of what he posts about he was not a witness to, and he got from Linda as he was nowhere even close. His only real involvement was in introducing her and the Doctor, arguing with all involved and attacking them, and making accusations against them about things he has no personal knowledge of, and making a ruckus at the 2004 campmeeting because he kept getting Linda's spin about all from her, while he was off on another continent, and not even in the same country as her Doctor.

He actually claims that everyone who really was there, and involved in all these situations except Linda, is a liar, does that really make sense to you? Whether it does or not please understand, if you are relying on agreement from the otherside about his involvement and his claim to be a witness, as the basis for his credibility, or claiming this hasn't been disputed, then maybe you need to rethink this.

[Fran]

And you would come to this conclusion how? 3abn has not heard a word from the IRS about any "findings", period. If the ministry doesn't know anything, I seriously doubt that you do.

Fran: I will never tell!



Why don't you comment on how Joy posted months ago that the board had called an "emergency" meeting to discuss a settlement with the IRS when, in reality, there had been no contact from the IRS. I notice you always ignore blatant lies on the other side and just continue to swing your axe wildly towards 3abn.

Fran: I could care less if there was a meeting or not, but I believe what Joy says above anything you say. It is just my personal choice.

You think you know so much, yet, you do not have access to all financial records at 3abn. You know only what is public, therefore, you are making your harsh judgements on only a small portion of information available to you.

Fran: Is this an invitation for me to see all those documents? Wow!


What you don't know changes the whole picture. I am there, you are not. I know all about their financial rules, procedures, paper trails, etc etc and they are extremely rigid. Can someone make a mistake?

Fran: Well... A mistake happens occasionally. Then there is the habitual mistakes that are there by choice and of course those doing it plead "not guilty by mistake."

Of course. That includes banks, churches, ministries, businesses and any other institution that deals with mega funds. Maybe that is what you are referring to on your eBay transaction. Maybe not. Tell me what you purchased and when you purchased it and I will be glad to have it tracked down for you to see what happened. I offer this because you have brought this up time and time again and I'll wager the reality is, that you are talking about a purchase less than $25.00 but still are trying to make a federal case out of it.

Fran: My purchases were well over $25.00 No I will not send you a copy. I gave it to the IRS. Sorry. You tell me why all the people selling for you were required to use PayPal, but the 3ABN eBay Gift Shop didn't, at that time, use PayPal? Any person selling would want to get permanent records for balancing cash/credit records with deposits. Not until I told everyone on Club Adventist did 3ABN change the way they did business with eBay. You were there. Tell me all about that.

Why did 3ABN change their name for the eBay gift shop repeatedly to drop off those evil transactions? You were hot and heavy with those changes ... until I announced it on Club Adventist! Then boom, you stopped. You succeeded in dropping a lot of the feedback, but way too late! When I mentioned that you did not use the benefits of PayPal reporting, you started using PayPal and your credit card machines. Those credit card machines are a whole story in themselves. How many merchant account numbers did you have? Does 3ABN have records showing that all sales made were recorded daily and did those totals match the deposits for those day? Show me that. I don't believe you can.

Yes, you required your sellers to produce those reports to make sure you got the right amount. Where did that money go? Are their deposits that match those reports? There should be. Oops.

Literally. The time of your purchase makes a big difference since the donated item system took a lot of time to set up. It was trial and error for awhile, removing things that weren't necessary, and little by little incorporating the things that were necessary. It was a process which improved by leaps and bounds over the years by working closely with the CFO and the outside auditor's.

Fran: Oh my! You have a might long learning curve! You were selling in 1998 and my purchase was years later! Who was the CFO? It only takes a bookkeeper to know that receipts must total deposits on a DAILY basis even if sales were only $ .99. There is no excuse for a CFO to take 6 years to figure that out!

Cash Control is the first control that should be instituted by any qualified CFO! They are to plug ALL holes. Any CFO that did not care enough about the cash receipts was not allowed to do so in my opinion. What is this? Is this your way of dumping all this mess on the CFO? Remember that Danny was in charge of all financial dealings? (See IL vs. 3ABN Property Tax Lawsuit.)

So, if you were receipted mistakenly Fran: PLEASE [/b]for a purchase, it is hardly the "scandalous" event you have tried to turn it into. The outside auditors deal with this department twice a year every year and everything that needs to be in place, is in place.

Fran: Who are these auditors? Do you hire them or are they independent? I know one thing. 3ABN is a slow learner. I read all those reports in the AG's Office! Every report reported that 3ABN had a problem valuing assets and those assets included Trust Funds. That is not from my imagination. They are real and on published official documents! That was no mistake! Every CFO knows to fix what was broken. The only thing stopping them would be for the person in charge stating not to. You won't be able to make then leave holding the bag! They will talk ... eventually.

HI believe you claim to live in Texas,

Fran : Hum. really? I've been known to get around.

have no access to anything at 3abn except public information, and certainly have no knowledge of new policies and regulations that have been put in place, every year, as the ministry grows. Anytime a new law has been made or changed, anytime the auditor's have told us something different needs to be implemented or improved upon, we have complied.

Fran: Properly valuing assets rules have been around probably as long as the IRS has been in business,

There has never been a time where something was intentionally done to go against the law or to hide anything. How do I know that? Again, I'm there, I have access to most everything. You do not.

Fran: Praise God from whom all blessings flow! My sympathy goes out to you.

[fallible humanbe...]

Do you really know him, Diane? The actual facts are his involvement has been disputed by every single person from 3ABN who really does know him, or has ever addressed him or this situation such as Danny Shelton, Dr Thompson, and Dr Kuzma, etc. as well as every single member here who has posted here expressing their disagreement with the man. All consistently tell him he doesn't know as he wasn't there and has been deceived. The majority of what he posts about he was not a witness to, and he got from Linda as he was nowhere even close. His only real involvement was in introducing her and the Doctor, arguing with all involved and attacking them, and making accusations against them about things he has no personal knowledge of, and making a ruckus at the 2004 campmeeting because he kept getting Linda's spin about all from her, while he was off on another continent, and not even in the same country as her Doctor.

He actually claims that everyone who really was there, and involved in all these situations except Linda, is a liar, does that really make sense to you? Whether it does or not please understand, if you are relying on agreement from the otherside about his involvement and his claim to be a witness, as the basis for his credibility, or claiming this hasn't been disputed, then maybe you need to rethink this.

Ian,

He also tends to make things sound other than they really are. Yesterday he claimed to be have "gone to school" with Dr. Thompson. His exact comments were:

I went to college with Walt back in 1952-54. He was a hard worker. I suppose he spent most of his time studying, because he did not take part in many campus activities where I saw him. But we "bumped into each other" in the dormitory, the cafetieria (sic), etc. Where were you then? My brother-in-law was his classmate at Wisconsin Academy and all through College. Something like 1947 to 1955 - or thereabouts. Did you know Walt before that? Then you should have retired by now.

The truth is that in the '52 - '53 school year Dr. Thompson was a freshman while Johann was a junior. There was little chance they had classes together and since Dr. Thompson lived on a floor in the dorm with other freshman, there isn't much chance they "ran into each other" there . . . as for the brother-in-law thing, he wasn't Johann's brother in law then, Johann probably didn't even know him yet.

Now, the second school year in Johann's time frame would have been problematic since Dr. Thompson had returned home to manage the family dairy farm - meaning he wasn't at Andrews. Unless Johann was visiting the country side of Dr. Thompson's family farm there was -no- chance he ran into him during that school year.

Also interesting is the fact that Johann and Dr. Thompson's major study areas would have severely limited any chance that they would have been in the same buildings on campus other than maybe the library and cafeteria. When he returned Dr. Thompson had married and lived off campus, so if Johann was there after he graduated in '54 there was even less chance of his "running into" Dr. Thompson unless he worked at CWP or the college bakery.

His connection to Dr. Thompson really only spans the time he was involved at 3ABN and then he was living a continent away. His main source of information being Linda it isn't surprising that he has such a warped view of all things 3ABN, that and his personal connection to the Dr AA which would of course lead him to defend them both as he brought them together.

If he was willing to embellish his "connection" to Dr. Thompson, what else has been embellished?

- FHB

This post has been edited by fallible humanbeing: Mar 8 2008, 11:35 PM

[fallible humanbe...]

Fran,

If the IRS is so concerned that major misdeeds have been done, why is the "investigation" on hiatus? Interesting that the investigator is out on maternity leave and they haven't put anyone else in charge. Doesn't seem to be very high on their priority list now does it?

- FHB

This post has been edited by fallible humanbeing: Mar 8 2008, 11:30 PM

[appletree]

Ian,

He also tends to make things sound other than they really are. Yesterday he claimed to be have "gone to school" with Dr. Thompson. His exact comments were:
The truth is that in the '52 - '53 school year Dr. Thompson was a freshman while Johann was a junior. There was little chance they had classes together and since Dr. Thompson lived a floor in the dorm with other freshman there isn't much chance they "ran into each other there" . . . as for the brother-in-law thing, he wasn't Johann's brother in law then, Johann probably didn't even know him yet.

Now, the second school year in Johann's time frame would have been problematic since Dr. Thompson had returned home to manage the family dairy farm - meaning he wasn't at Andrews. Unless Johann was visiting the country side of Dr. Thompson's family farm there was -no- chance he ran into him during that school year.

Also interesting is the fact that Johann and Dr. Thompson's major study areas would have severely limited any chance that they would have been in the same buildings on campus other than maybe the library and cafeteria. When he returned Dr. Thompson had married and lived off campus, so if Johann was there after he graduated in '54 there was even less chance unless he worked at CWP or the bakery.

His connection to Dr. Thompson really only spans the time he was involved at 3ABN and then he was living a continent away. His main source of information being Linda it isn't surprising that he has such a warped view of all things 3ABN, that and his personal connection to the Dr AA which would of course lead him to defend them both as he brought them together.

If he was willing to embellish his "connection" to Dr. Thompson, what else has been embellished?

- FHB

FHB, thanks for clearing that up. This instance certainly does show Johanns propensity for turning nothing into something.

This post has been edited by appletree: Mar 8 2008, 11:46 PM

[appletree]

Fran, now I remember why I usually ignore your posts. When you get excited your accusations and ramblings almost get to the point of lunacy.
Myself nor anyone aquainted with the ebay program have a clue what you are talking about. As I stated before, that program had to develope and learn along the way and made changes accordingly. Do you honestly think that they added or subtracted policies according to remarks you made on some forum? You must think quite highly of yourself. For all anyone at 3abn knows you are a patient in a mental hospital or a prison inmate that is studying finance. On that platform do you think your opinion would actually affect anything at all?

FYI the accounting department as well as the outside auditors have a copy of every item sold on the 3angels ebay gift shop. (I have no idea what you were talking about concerning changing the name of the store and you don't either.) There is a paper trail a mile long for everything that is donated and everything sold. As far as payment policies are concerned, in the beginning 3abn accepted 3 payment forms. Credit card, money order or cashier's check. As the sales progressed they axed the money orders and cashier's check for the simple reason that people were taking to long to mail them in. That is when they established paypal payments. Also FYI whenever a buyer calls in their credit card payment, that call goes directly to the accounting dept who takes their information for payment. The accounting dept then makes a copy of the transaction(without the cc numbers) which goes to the donation dept so they can log in "payment" made and can then ship the item.

I could spend the next hour explaining the entire process on paper but I don't think it's necessary. Anyone with eyes can see how wild and disjointed your posts are.

Back to the ignore button for you.

[appletree]

Appletree, there is another possible explanation for the phenomenon you have just described - that once Linda had gone, it was expedient to speak negatively of her to stay in the good books of the person who now 'held their jobs' in his hands.

I have no personal knowledge of anything at 3ABN, just pointing out logical possiblities.

Yes, I'm sure that's it. All 140 people at 3abn made up negative remarks about Linda totally on purpose, hoping that somehow, each individual's remarks would get to Danny and their jobs would be safe.
Sorry, I was there when Linda was. I mixed with the workers, especially production. I heard and saw first hand what they thought of her, her ideas, and her treatment of anyone under her. This was way before the split.

[princessdi]

See that what happens when you come late to the party. Actually, I find it very strange that from the beginning, Johann's involvement was never in question by either side...In fact that is how he got here......his name being tossed aorund as being Linda's friend and actually part and party to whatever she and Dr, had going on. They disagree with his version of things, but not his involvement. DS, WT, and KK. Please! Don't get me started! Is she even a Dr.? Didn't soembody look up her credentials when she came here? I thought she was some kind of counselor or something....anyway, she is extremely unprofessional. She came here psting confidential information about someone she claimed to have "counseled" Sorry we have enough members who actually work in this field that it was spotted almost immediately. Her crediblity is zero here..........You already know the deal with Danny. He came here lying through his teeth, without us even asking him anything. Credibility.....zero........WT....I beleive honestly at first he had good intentions. However, I think he made some serious judgement errors and did not stand up for right, and now he feels basically stuck. i don't believe him to be a bad man, just caught between and rock and a hard place. As a result present credbility is zero because of the ompany he keeps....birds of a feather, ya' know!

It is not until some of you Johnny come latelys, who admit to not being anywhere around any of the incidents in question. that Johann's involvement has been questioned. I just can't understnad that from people who we know weren't there. So, if your sources are telling you this, then they arde putting you at a great disadvantage as this is a fact that they themselves never questioned. To be honest, and I admit, I might have missed something, the closest person on your side got to any of these situation was someone admitting to being across the auditorium when the confrontation happend with Johann and the Dr. at that fateful campmeeting, not even close enough to read lips. Now you are talking and you were not even there......at all. How does that work?

Do you really know him, Diane? The actual facts are his involvement has been disputed by every single person from 3ABN who really does know him, or has ever addressed him or this situation such as Danny Shelton, Dr Thompson, and Dr Kuzma, etc. as well as every single member here who has posted here expressing their disagreement with the man. All consistently tell him he doesn't know as he wasn't there and has been deceived. The majority of what he posts about he was not a witness to, and he got from Linda as he was nowhere even close. His only real involvement was in introducing her and the Doctor, arguing with all involved and attacking them, and making accusations against them about things he has no personal knowledge of, and making a ruckus at the 2004 campmeeting because he kept getting Linda's spin about all from her, while he was off on another continent, and not even in the same country as her Doctor.

He actually claims that everyone who really was there, and involved in all these situations except Linda, is a liar, does that really make sense to you? Whether it does or not please understand, if you are relying on agreement from the otherside about his involvement and his claim to be a witness, as the basis for his credibility, or claiming this hasn't been disputed, then maybe you need to rethink this.

[princessdi]

Auditing? CC merchant numbers? Now, you are in my neck of the woods.....What's the problem? LOL!!!

[Johann]

FHB, thanks for clearing that up. This instance certainly does show Johanns propensity for turning nothing into something.

Do you really think I'm catching up with you in this area?

Just for you information, FHB's information is not correct. Can't blame him, since he was not even born at that time he is describing so vividly, and how immaculate is his source? His ability to remember things in the right sequence has been questioned, and can be documented.

Have you considered the possibility that, at times, I paid more attention to Walt than he to me? Why would I rremember him so clearly when we met again 50 years later?

People's memories of events and people are different. When I met Ralph Thompson, former secretary of the General Conference, again at a 3ABN board meeting, I had almost forgotten him, but he remembered us being together in classes. When he told me incidents my memory was refreshed. And he also told me he had met my wife on a trip to Poland where she had concerts at that time. He has a special ability to remember and follow people he has met.

That freshmen were seperated from other students in the dorm at EMC is news to me. But how would FHB know? Was he there? First floor in Burman Hall was supposed to be for seniors only, but then they put certain freshmen in between. I had special friends who lived closer to Walter. One reason why I paid attention to him.

[Fran]

Fran, now I remember why I usually ignore your posts. When you get excited your accusations and ramblings almost get to the point of lunacy.

Lunacy? Is that what is wrong with me?


Myself nor anyone aquainted with the ebay program have a clue what you are talking about. As I stated before, that program had to develope and learn along the way and made changes accordingly. Do you honestly think that they added or subtracted policies according to remarks you made on some forum? You must think quite highly of yourself.

Oh yes, I do know it is true! Why do you think I went silent? I don't have stupid written all over my face!


For all anyone at 3abn knows you are a patient in a mental hospital or a prison inmate that is studying finance. On that platform do you think your opinion would actually affect anything at all?

You know exactly who and where I am. Don't be coy. I am in prison, but not the kind you speak of. There are more prisions that have nothing to do with jail type. I am a victim of abuse; I can readily see abuse. I can point out the abusers. I have always been right. I would like to get my doctrate. Would you pay for it for me?

FYI the accounting department as well as the outside auditors have a copy of every item sold on the 3angels ebay gift shop. (I have no idea what you were talking about concerning changing the name of the store and you don't either.)

Funny thing is I saved pdf files of the history page and the feedback. I also saved pdf's of all the name changes. I know exactly what I am saying is true. Otherwise I would not mention it. It will be one of the eisier things to research. For an added foot note, I told the IRS exactly how I found your sellers. They sent me a letter back and said they would use my information on all investigations in the future. I read it and smiled.

There is a paper trail a mile long for everything that is donated and everything sold. As far as payment policies are concerned, in the beginning 3abn accepted 3 payment forms. Credit card, money order or cashier's check. As the sales progressed they axed the money orders and cashier's check for the simple reason that people were taking to long to mail them in. That is when they established paypal payments. Also FYI whenever a buyer calls in their credit card payment, that call goes directly to the accounting dept who takes their information for payment. The accounting dept then makes a copy of the transaction(without the cc numbers) which goes to the donation dept so they can log in "payment" made and can then ship the item.

Well, here you go again! Open mouth and insert foot.

1....Why do "sales" get posted in the "donation" department?

2...This is a mistake! Is it no wonder I got a receipt for a cash "Donation" instead of a receipt for my purchase. This type of accounting seems to still remain the norm or business as usual.

3...Are ALL your bank accounts balanced each and every month? If not why not?

I could spend the next hour explaining the entire process on paper but I don't think it's necessary. Anyone with eyes can see how wild and disjointed your posts are.

Is this the best you can do? Just ignore the truth. All this dog and pony show you are painting is really shallow. I am right about what I have said. 3ABN did change policies as soon as I posted. Don't you remember begging for money for ADRA? I posted that people should sent those donations to ADRA, not 3ABN. I explained the fact that 3ABN posted over $14,000 + in money that belonged to other organizations but indtead of it being sent to the other it went straight into 3ABN Income. I suggested they not send it to 3ABN because of that FACT. They I complained that 3ABN should put the address of the people needing help and bypass the 3ABN coffers. IT worked. You stopped begging people to send money for other to 3ABN. Deny all you want. It is not a problem. I really should post those posts from Club adventist for all to see that I speak the truth. Be sure to hit ignore. The message will be for othes and not just for you.

Back to the ignore button for you.

[Pickle]

Yes, I'm sure that's it. All 140 people at 3abn made up negative remarks about Linda totally on purpose, hoping that somehow, each individual's remarks would get to Danny and their jobs would be safe.
Sorry, I was there when Linda was. I mixed with the workers, especially production. I heard and saw first hand what they thought of her, her ideas, and her treatment of anyone under her. This was way before the split.

How come other people that I'm told the staff talked about haven't been given the same treatment?

[Pickle]

If the IRS is so concerned that major misdeeds have been done, why is the "investigation" on hiatus? Interesting that the investigator is out on maternity leave and they haven't put anyone else in charge.

Was it a boy or a girl?

I noticed that that Congressman from out west whose family business got raided by the FBI last April wasn't indicted until recently. Therefore, how much time would need to go by before we can breathe easier?

[Pickle]

I forgot to ask you, FHB, why did Attorney Hayes tell Magistrate Judge Hillman on Friday during our hearing that there was no IRS criminal investigation going on if you know so much about it as to know that the investigator is out on maternity leave?