When Christians Go Bad....a 3abn Spin-off, why do we allow ourselves to be treated badly... Options

[princessdi]

Your PM box was full? Wow!!! you be popular!!!

Sorry, my fault. the PM box was full.

Ok, back to topic.

[beartrap]

This is an interesting question, Clay, and it is relevant in more areas than just groups and churches, it is also in many homes. There are many women and men who live year after year with someone who heaps abuse on them regularly, yet they stay and do nothing substantive about it.

Some of us have done the same thing in living under an abusive cult leader. More often than not, we have even idolized the person abusing us. We have viewed him in a godlike way. We get so used to unquestioning obedience that when told to do things that common sense would forbid, we just do it. We take the abuse and feel that somehow we don't deserve any better. To question his words and actions is tantamount to questioning God. When we start allowing ourselves to think and be concerned about it, we become afraid for so many reasons that we just try to block it from our minds and stay on the "straight and narrow" that we have been told to stay on.

It is a rather complex psychological issue that, on the surface, makes no sense at all.

[Clay]

It is a rather complex psychological issue that, on the surface, makes no sense at all.

which is why I posed the question.... perhaps we can help free someone from this mindset that makes no sense.... why are we comfortable with allowing someone else to think for us? Is that a by-product of fundamental religion?

Why are some of us afraid to question what is preached or taught? and lastly what is it about our leaders that we idolize them so?

[Guest_statrei_*]

which is why I posed the question.... perhaps we can help free someone from this mindset that makes no sense.... why are we comfortable with allowing someone else to think for us? Is that a by-product of fundamental religion?

Why are some of us afraid to question what is preached or taught? and lastly what is it about our leaders that we idolize them so?

It is a by-product of the central myth of religion that only a few of us are qualified to speak with the gods on behalf of the rest of us.

[beartrap]

In general we tend to prefer a study in which there are definitive points. We like to look it over and see exactly what decisions where made when. Unfortunately, the defining points in this conundrum are mostly nebulous. In the group dynamic, as it relates to the leader, my own experience is that over time I became convinced that I was now a part of something much bigger than me and I no longer had any personal value. My only value was in successfully filling my place in the group, and pleasing the leader. This had to come at the expense of everything that was "me." Understand that I did not come in with that attitude, it was encouraged and propagated over time. I don't ever recall a point in time where I consciously came to that conclusion. I have since found that this is a common experience for people who find themselves in volluntary subjection to another person or group.

This post has been edited by beartrap: May 4 2006, 12:12 PM

[Clay]

In general we tend to prefer a study in which there are definitive points. We like to look it over and see exactly what decisions where made when. Unfortunately, the defining points in this conundrum are mostly nebulous. In the group dynamic, as it relates to the leader, my own experience is that over time I became convinced that I was now a part of something much bigger than me and I no longer had any personal value. My only value was in successfully filling my place in the group, and pleasing the leader. This had to come at the expense of everything that was "me." Understand that I did not come in with that attitude, it was encouraged and propagated over time. I don't ever recall a point in time where I consciously came to that conclusion. I have since found that this is a common experience for people who find themselves in volluntary subjection to another person or group.

which is what happens in "cults." At what point do you think you stopped thinking for yourself?

[beartrap]

which is what happens in "cults." At what point do you think you stopped thinking for yourself?

I don't know. I can't think of any particular point where that happened. I believe that it happened little by little. I think that if it had to happen all at once, it wouldn't have happened at all.

[Clay]

I don't know. I can't think of any particular point where that happened. I believe that it happened little by little. I think that if it had to happen all at once, it wouldn't have happened at all.

so then it happened gradually, until you felt afraid to have independent thoughts? I think those who were and are at 3abn need to watch a movie.... "Diary of a Mad Black Woman"


it deals with how we sometimes get caught up and lose who we are, and how we can become liberated...

I understand it happens... but we cannot allow anyone to do our thinking..... its the very thing that God blessed us with..... the ability to think.....

This post has been edited by Clay: May 4 2006, 12:58 PM

[beartrap]

In Christianity we are often encouraged by words to think and study for ourselves, but the fine print governing the spirit of that encouragement disallows any real measure of independence of thought and direction in our study. We are given guidelines established by accepted doctrine, and this sets the stage for a walk down that slippery psychological path. Once we become established in that mindset, we are able to tell ourselves that in walking away from convention, we are thinking independently. One way of walking away from convention is in giving yourself over to a group that stands out from the rest of society, and is better than them. In becoming a part of that group, and in giving yourself over to the leader, you shed the vestiges of convention, give up all of those things that would make you inferior like the outside people, and in allowing yourself to be controlled completely by the leader you remove from yourself the burden of deciding between right and wrong. As long as you do as you are told by the man through whom God speaks, you can share in his spiritual superiority.

This post has been edited by beartrap: May 4 2006, 01:17 PM

[Clay]

a favorite quote of mine.....

Question everything. Every stripe, every star, every word spoken. Everything. --Ernest J. Gaines

What you say is true Bear, I believe the corrective to that is to question.... and be willing to question even the supposed "superiority." Human history is filled with too many horror stories of those in groups who felt superior and what happened to them...

I also believe there is a common element that is shared with women who are in abusive relationships, that is the man attempts to become the only source of information, he isolates the woman from friends and family, and then convinces her that he is her only hope.....

the corrective is to question everything....

[beanchild]

...So makes me wonder when you do go & they say "oh we have missed you" Yea right!!

you speak the truth. and i laugh because i've been in that sort of situation.

but what do you want them to do? be honest that they didn't realize you hadn't been there?? right.

...when i want fellowship, i hang out with the heathen. i certainly don't go to church for that sort of thing. what a crazy idea.

...
What makes us stay in those situations though as opposed to saying, enough is enough I am outta here?

i think someone else said: fear. i second that. i do think that a good part of folk stay because if they don't, they believe they are going to hell. & eternal damnation isn't such a pleasant destination. at least in my mind it isn't. ...although i guess i wouldn't ever have to wear heavy clothes...

[Clay]

you speak the truth. and i laugh because i've been in that sort of situation.

but what do you want them to do? be honest that they didn't realize you hadn't been there?? right.

...when i want fellowship, i hang out with the heathen. i certainly don't go to church for that sort of thing. what a crazy idea.
i think someone else said: fear. i second that. i do think that a good part of folk stay because if they don't, they believe they are going to hell. & eternal damnation isn't such a pleasant destination. at least in my mind it isn't. ...although i guess i wouldn't ever have to wear heavy clothes...

then hell it is... cause there is no need to stay where there is no genuine love.... let's not pretend... when you don't go to church and no one calls, don't be hurt, if you were important they would call.... and we all know you dont have to go to church to meet God...

[PaperTigers]

I agree with Bear, sometimes we get so caught up in what's going on and in what they are saying.. that we loose a sense of ourselves and even sometimes, for a while, our own sense of right and wrong. We get in a situation where we allow others to think for us for so long that to think for ourselves almost becomes unheard of.

[beanchild]

then hell it is... cause there is no need to stay where there is no genuine love.... let's not pretend... when you don't go to church and no one calls, don't be hurt, if you were important they would call.... and we all know you dont have to go to church to meet God...

true. but ouch, could you at least have minced some more words??

[Clay]

true. but ouch, could you at least have minced some more words??

reality bean my child, reality.....