When Christians Go Bad....a 3abn Spin-off, why do we allow ourselves to be treated badly... Options

[Prisca]

so then is it really surprising that our church friends are no where to be found when we are being mistreated by "christians?" Even Jesus' disciples scattered when the heat was on....

What makes us stay in those situations though as opposed to saying, enough is enough I am outta here?

We believe we should love our 'neighbors' MORE than we love ourselves.

[NormF]

a favorite quote of mine.....
What you say is true Bear, I believe the corrective to that is to question.... and be willing to question even the supposed "superiority." Human history is filled with too many horror stories of those in groups who felt superior and what happened to them...

I also believe there is a common element that is shared with women who are in abusive relationships, that is the man attempts to become the only source of information, he isolates the woman from friends and family, and then convinces her that he is her only hope.....

the corrective is to question everything....

Dear Steve,

I hear you.

But as one cognitive, left-brained personality to another (and statrei, this is for you too, as well as any other cognitive-type readers among us), there is a whole lot more to it than just this.

Announcing the corrective is nice, but it's only one baby step past labeling/diagnosing ... and even at that, just barely. Actually, there are several cognitive approaches that are applicable and useful to victims. And I do grant you that cognitive solutions are helpful for some people and in some situations; but for even the most thoroughly left-brained among us, that's often still inadequate, because of the all-pervasive nature of what happens while being in such situations. And especially for those victims who work at life from the right brain, they are frequently woefully inadequate. The emotions and the subconscious levels of the mind require much else that cognitive interventions alone cannot reach. I grew up in a home with a psychopathic parent. I know. And I fear this is exactly what we're dealing with here for many of these folk among our members. The only significant difference is that this is a work situation instead of a home one.

The psychiatric profession has called this condition in perpetrators by several names over the years -- psychopathy, sociopathy, and antisocial personality disorder (APD). It traces way back through the years though, to Freud's time and before. Historically, the names developed over the years arose in the order I just gave. But regardless of name, they all describe the same condition ... this is one of those things where "a rose is a rose is a rose" (substitute "mess" or "stink" for the flower name, if you will).

Curiously enough, the old terminology has not been entirely abandoned for this condition. Some professionals today differentiate degree by using one label over another. For example, extreme cases are called psychopathic (ala Hitchcock murder stories, as a widely known example), milder ones get one of the other names. However, there is not full agreement on the labelling within the profession. So you can expect to see the labels/diagnoses used interchangeably, even by them.

Between those professionals who choose to continue to use one or the other of the older names in an all-inclusive way, to the exclusion of the other two they don't like, and those who use all three names (or sometimes just two of the three!) as a way of labelling degree, it can be very confusing to the uninitiated. Therefore, in the literature, one must go by context as a case is discussed, if you want to know for sure where you're at in a given discussion. (With this in mind, I'm thinking it may also behoove us here, as we post, to make our word choices clear when we're discussing this subject.) Believe me though, by whatever name you call it, NONE of it is sweet.

Regardless of this naming problem, we are dealing here with a very complex, powerful subject. Such personalities are very incomprehensible to most others, and to themselves ... and just plain extremely difficult to live with or work under. That's putting it very gently. These personalities are invariably in deep denial; they just can't see anything wrong with themselves. Let me assure you: if you have not lived with or worked under such a person, it is often just about impossible for you to fathom its depth or understand the range of things it does to an individual as they try to cope with living with such a person. And it takes a very long time once you're out from under it (you as a victim) to come to grips with where you've been and learn how to deal with your history and get on with your life. (As for the naming, for my part, I tend to refer to it simply as psychopathy, inclusive of all its forms, and use description rather than labelling to differentiate degree.)

It is not for nothing that examples like Jim Jones, Heaven's Gate, and David Koresh have been offered here as comparisons. The Koolaid brigade, fireballs, and other forms of self-destruction, great and small, all-encompassing or minor, are the sad results ... and much too often, it's the former ones, the biggies. If you've been there/done that, such examples are oh-so-telling. They click with you right off the bat.

Please understand, the people who have had the courage to speak publicly here as they've been doing recently, even with the anonymity that the Internet provides, are taking a huge step forward to just say anything about where they've been and what they've seen and know. In itself, this is a quantum leap forward. And there is so much more still ahead of them on their journeys. Getting your mind around an entire situation in such cases, and getting back far enough to see the big picture once again, requires earthshaking paradigm shifts that are not easily achieved. And then begins the long, hard process of healing.

One thing more, those persons who have such personality dysfunctions (and this is regardless of which of the three labels are applied to it) have been found to be almost completely untreatable. The worse the affliction, the more untreatable it is, too. To my knowledge, no professionals have yet stepped forward with any meaningful help for them, either with medications or with talk therapies. It is often a progressive disorder too; and if it gets too far gone, radical legal/judicial interventions may be required just to protect society and themselves from it. Notice carefully that I am making a distinction regarding susceptibility to treatment between people who are psychopathic and those around them who've been on the receiving end from them.

By the way, it's important also to note that people who are psychopathic often have other afflictions right along with this one, like megalomania (such as God complexes) and/or others. There is often a cluster effect at work.

Be patient folks if you don't see much change in others (us) immediately, when you announce such solutions as the above. Yes, new thinking can lead to recovery ... granted. But it takes time. Lots of it. And often, much more than just enough time and one therapeutic modality.

More than this, I haven't even begun to address all the other factors in this particular mess that affect what these victims have been through; that's on top of what appear to be its frantic psychological components.

Also, a disclaimer: I'm not a professional therapist nor am I attempting to make online diagnoses of anybody. I do have firsthand knowledge of the condition, and I'm offering advise that may or may not be helpful for some folks (victims) in the situations they find themselves ... plus offering some thoughts for those of us who wish to be helpful to these people who are still caught or have been caught in the past in this maelstrom. But that's all, and nothing more.

God give us courage and strength.

Regards,
Norm

[Clay]

Norm,
Understood, having worked in the mental health field for 20 yrs, I have seen more than my share of the folk of which you speak.... the point of this thread and a couple of others that I have started is to foster the process of liberation.... true the path is not easy, however it will be rewarding as people shake off the bonds of that captive mentality which they have lived in for so long..... there is nothing to dishonorable in being a victim, however we do not have to stay a victim... I made the analogy earlier about abused women....and I think the example fits from the standpoint that there are some women who are abused who will still defend the abuser, even return home with him knowing that more abuse will occur... she is literally a prisoner of her mind... a kind of learned helplessness...

This whole thing at 3abn highlights the dangers of adventist colonies, or gluten ghettos as a member here calls them, lifelong denominational employment, and also the danger of believing that the adventist church is the only true church.... think about it.... membership is voluntary, yet people have given the church all this power over their lives.....

we need not ever talk about the mormons, the JWs, or the catholics.... btjm.....

This post has been edited by Clay: May 5 2006, 01:23 AM

[NormF]

Dear Steve,

I thought as much already, but I'm glad you confirmed we are on the same page, friend. Thanks.

It's sad but true: too often we prefer the devil we know to the Divinity we don't. (Overstated extremes of the continuum, to be sure; but the essense of the thing is there.)

Regards,
Norm

This post has been edited by NormF: May 5 2006, 01:58 AM

[Clay]

Dear Steve,

I thought as much already, but I'm glad you confirmed we are on the same page, friend. Thanks.

Regards,
Norm

yes we are.... as i read the comments, this song comes to mind.....

OH, FREEDOM

Oh, freedom, Oh, freedom,
Oh freedom over me.
And before I'd be a slave
I'd be buried in my grave
And go home to my Lord and be free.

Jesus lived and died to free us, yet we allow the words of a serpent to enslave us....

[HUGGINS130]

why do we expect that of church? Have you ever really found your needs met in church? I choose my friends carefully... they meet the needs that I have, and if I am in trouble I know I can call on them... my friends may or may not go to my church..... so do you think our expectations are unrealistic and that sets us up for problems?

Many times the "be in the world but not of the world" clause tossed about in church will have you thinking that you can't have friends outside of the church...they are too worldly remember...what are we as christians doing having friends who are going to drink or go to the club...it's just not supposed to happen...
and to answer the question, yes the expectations are unrealistic and that is the problem

Norm,
Understood, having worked in the mental health field for 20 yrs, I have seen more than my share of the folk of which you speak.... the point of this thread and a couple of others that I have started is to foster the process of liberation.... true the path is not easy, however it will be rewarding as people shake off the bonds of that captive mentality which they have lived in for so long..... there is nothing to dishonorable in being a victim, however we do not have to stay a victim... I made the analogy earlier about abused women....and I think the example fits from the standpoint that there are some women who are abused who will still defend the abuser, even return home with him knowing that more abuse will occur... she is literally a prisoner of her mind... a kind of learned helplessness...

This whole thing at 3abn highlights the dangers of adventist colonies, or gluten ghettos as a member here calls them, lifelong denominational employment, and also the danger of believing that the adventist church is the only true church.... think about it.... membership is voluntary, yet people have given the church all this power over their lives.....

we need not ever talk about the mormons, the JWs, or the catholics.... btjm.....

Clay if you don't mind my assessment...after being in the church for 18 years until moving out of my parents house...and then returning to the church after a hiatus for about 5 years, being in a cult for 5 years before coming into the Adventist church, I didn't realize how captivating the Christian community is...they want power over the mind...it wasn't until I walked away not only from the churches of my youth, and then the Word of Faith movement and Adventism, just these last past few years, that I found true freedom...Religions are manipulative...

[Clay]

True Thomas, it often comes down to power and control.... the misuse of texts in the bible, the peddling of guilt, etc... all designed to keep people in line, nonthinking, and unquestioning.... unfortunate....

[NormF]

On being in the world but not of it ...
If being Christian is to be salt, and if salt is to put on meat, where should we be? Kind of missing our calling, aren't we?

Regards, Huggins,
Norm

[Denny]

Some of us allow ourselves to be spiritually bullied we abuse the text where Paul talks about not taking your brethern to court to mean let them walk all over us to preserve the church's so called good name. How many times have members frowned on the victims of those abused by others in the church, or on the those who blow the whistle on the theif in the church....

[Clay]

Some of us allow ourselves to be spiritually bullied we abuse the text where Paul talks about not taking your brethern to court to mean let them walk all over us to preserve the church's so called good name. How many times have members frowned on the victims of those abused by others in the church, or on the those who blow the whistle on the theif in the church....

some of us need to lose that mindset... tell on them... tell it all.... tell it loudly....

[Denny]

some of us need to lose that mindset... tell on them... tell it all.... tell it loudly....

I agree the de-programming is needed its the same for any abusive relationship until the victim realises she/he is not the bad one they never be mentally free. Jesus saying 'Ye shall know the truth and the truth shall make you free' is not just about bible knowledge as we like to think its about a lifestyle of freedom in Jesus but we don't teach that do we.

[beartrap]

One learns that words can mean a lot, but surface value is often often opposite of what the words say. How many times I've heard, "I'm not holding anyone prisoner, they can leave anytime they want", "I'm just a carpenter like Jesus, doing what God has told me to do", "Nobody should just believe everything we teach, they should study for themselves", "Our financial books are open. We are audited every year by an independent auditor, and you'uns are welcome to take a look", "Yes, he/she has done these things and we have all the proof... he/she has even signed this document. Would he/she have signed it if not guilty? If he/she was right and I was wrong? Everyone knows, just ask any of my staff, the pastor, our conference president, and several well respected leaders in Adventist evangelism."

Can anybody actually understand what is behind those words?

[Clay]

One learns that words can mean a lot, but surface value is often often opposite of what the words say. How many times I've heard, "I'm not holding anyone prisoner, they can leave anytime they want", "I'm just a carpenter like Jesus, doing what God has told me to do", "Nobody should just believe everything we teach, they should study for themselves", "Our financial books are open. We are audited every year by an independent auditor, and you'uns are welcome to take a look", "Yes, he/she has done these things and we have all the proof... he/she has even signed this document. Would he/she have signed it if not guilty? If he/she was right and I was wrong? Everyone knows, just ask any of my staff, the pastor, our conference president, and several well respected leaders in Adventist evangelism."

Can anybody actually understand what is behind those words?

yes.... and they should go find someone who is not connected and question, examine, scour the info that you have access to.... oh and don't take the word of folks getting paid by the one saying those things.... in other words be skeptical.... very skeptical.... and if they say, "don't you trust me/us?" the response should be NO!!!!!

[watchbird]

One learns that words can mean a lot, but surface value is often often opposite of what the words say. How many times I've heard, "I'm not holding anyone prisoner, they can leave anytime they want", "I'm just a carpenter like Jesus, doing what God has told me to do", "Nobody should just believe everything we teach, they should study for themselves", "Our financial books are open. We are audited every year by an independent auditor, and you'uns are welcome to take a look", "Yes, he/she has done these things and we have all the proof... he/she has even signed this document. Would he/she have signed it if not guilty? If he/she was right and I was wrong? Everyone knows, just ask any of my staff, the pastor, our conference president, and several well respected leaders in Adventist evangelism."

Can anybody actually understand what is behind those words?

Yes.


But how can the meaning be communcated so others who don't, can?

[NormF]

Can anybody actually understand what is behind those words?

You can if there's ever been a psychopath/sociopath/APD in your life. If not, it probably taxes even your imagination, or worse, exceeds your worst nightmares. Result (too often): disbelief of (a sorry) reality.

The examples you cite, bear, while specific to the persona in question, are highly consistent, to a T, with the disorder behind them, as outlined in the thread above. They say one thing and mean an entirely other.

Regards,
Norm