When Christians Go Bad....a 3abn Spin-off, why do we allow ourselves to be treated badly... Options

[princessdi]

That is just right scary, right there!

One learns that words can mean a lot, but surface value is often often opposite of what the words say. How many times I've heard, "I'm not holding anyone prisoner, they can leave anytime they want", "I'm just a carpenter like Jesus, doing what God has told me to do", "Nobody should just believe everything we teach, they should study for themselves", "Our financial books are open. We are audited every year by an independent auditor, and you'uns are welcome to take a look", "Yes, he/she has done these things and we have all the proof... he/she has even signed this document. Would he/she have signed it if not guilty? If he/she was right and I was wrong? Everyone knows, just ask any of my staff, the pastor, our conference president, and several well respected leaders in Adventist evangelism."

Can anybody actually understand what is behind those words?

[Prisca]

I am confused. We are discussing thinking for ourselves which may be the exact answer to the question posed...why DO Christians go bad? Is it because they begin to think for themselves and leave the path of the tried and true? As Christians we have a whole Book of what we are to think about..this is perhaps the basis of our belief system. Are we talking about freedom to juggle those thoughts about? Freedom to react in our own way to what those thoughts produce within us?

[watchbird]

I am confused. We are discussing thinking for ourselves which may be the exact answer to the question posed...why DO Christians go bad? Is it because they begin to think for themselves and leave the path of the tried and true? As Christians we have a whole Book of what we are to think about..this is perhaps the basis of our belief system. Are we talking about freedom to juggle those thoughts about? Freedom to react in our own way to what those thoughts produce within us?

I think we are talking about thinking for ourselves rather than allowing someone else to do our thinking for us and telling us what to think.

You are fortunate indeed if you have not had this kind of experience, for it is all too common even in the Adventist church at large. In Independent Ministries it is pretty much "standard operating procedure" and those who resist such thought control, even in the ordinary decisions of life, are considered rebels, and dealt with accordingly.

From what Beartrap and others have said, this is taken even further for those who come under the influence of Danny at 3ABN, and even made more emotionally coercive by claiming that since he has direct instruction from God as to what you should think, then he and he alone should direct your thoughts.

Thought Control is taken to a new high with this additive to the fueltank.


Mz Ellen has different things to say as to who is responsible for our thoughts and whether or not someone else should relay God's instructions for our lives to us.

[Prisca]

I think we are talking about thinking for ourselves rather than allowing someone else to do our thinking for us and telling us what to think.

You are fortunate indeed if you have not had this kind of experience, for it is all too common even in the Adventist church at large. In Independent Ministries it is pretty much "standard operating procedure" and those who resist such thought control, even in the ordinary decisions of life, are considered rebels, and dealt with accordingly.

From what Beartrap and others have said, this is taken even further for those who come under the influence of Danny at 3ABN, and even made more emotionally coercive by claiming that since he has direct instruction from God as to what you should think, then he and he alone should direct your thoughts.

Thought Control is taken to a new high with this additive to the fueltank.
Mz Ellen has different things to say as to who is responsible for our thoughts and whether or not someone else should relay God's instructions for our lives to us.

I hear you. Oh I know about the 'self-supporting, independent ministries'..If you read the Bible as I have then you would think like I think...folk. Spent 10 days at Mountain Missionary. Still tingling! But I don't see a problem with Danny's belief that God speaks. You see, in my little world there are those who claim the same thing, so it is familiar to me. Those with little or no education must have something to use as 'clout'. What else do they have but direct revelation? The seer, the foreteller of the future, the dream interpreters...many do not have formal education (which is, at best questionable in its spiritual benefits) and they trace their belief to the Bible and how God used the unlearned disciples to reach the world....

This post has been edited by Clay: Jul 8 2006, 01:15 PM

[Clay]

I hear you. Oh I know about the 'self-supporting, independent ministries'..If you read the Bible as I have then you would think like I think...folk. Spent 10 days at Mountain Missionary. Still tingling! But I don't see a problem with Danny's belief that God speaks. You see, in my little world there are those who claim the same thing, so it is familiar to me. Those with little or no education must have something to use as 'clout'. What else do they have but direct revelation? The seer, the foreteller of the future, the dream interpreters...many do not have formal education (which is, at best questionable in its spiritual benefits) and they trace their belief to the Bible and how God used the unlearned disciples to reach the world....

delusional thinking cuts across, class, color, gender, socioeconomics......

[Guest_statrei_*]

delusional thinking cuts across, class, color, gender, socioeconomics......

Heaven help us when educated people fall for that kind of thinking.

[watchbird]

I hear you. Oh I know about the 'self-supporting, independent ministries'..If you read the Bible as I have then you would think like I think...folk. Spent 10 days at Mountain Missionary. Still tingling! But I don't see a problem with Danny's belief that God speaks. You see, in my little world there are those who claim the same thing, so it is familiar to me. Those with little or no education must have something to use as 'clout'. What else do they have but direct revelation? The seer, the foreteller of the future, the dream interpreters...many do not have formal education (which is, at best questionable in its spiritual benefits) and they trace their belief to the Bible and how God used the unlearned disciples to reach the world....

I'm confused. You seem to be describing (with a negative attitude) the type of person that I described as frequenting the "self-supporting, independent ministries" who has no use for education, but depends on "direct revelation".

But right in the middle of this you put in the sentence "But I don' t see a problem with Danny's belief that God speaks. You see in my little world there are those who claim the same thing..."

So question--Do those in your little world who say the same thing mean the same thing by the words they say.

Keep in mind that we have heard Bear (and I think others) describe Danny speaking of God speaking to him in the sense of him stopping in the middle of a conversation and saying God is telling me this about you, right now. From the additional descriptions that Bear has given when we were talking voice to voice, I have come to understand that Danny actually hears--or thinks he hears--voices speaking to him. Now in Pentecostal circles, especially some groups, this is essentially the same as what is called in other circles "channeling" or having a "spirit guide". This is exponentially different than the average Christian who uses the words "God speaks to me", meaning that they are giving God the credit for them recalling words of scripture or in somehow helping them work through a problem or be encouraged by a spiritual thought or feeling.

delusional thinking cuts across, class, color, gender, socioeconomics......

And my questions and confusion about Prisca's comments above carry over into yours, Clay, for I can see your statement as being applicable to the person who has or thinks he has a "spirit guide" who speaks to him. But I don't see it applying to the mind set that glorifies not being educated. So would you expand on your meaning a little more especially how you were tying it to Prisca's comment?

[Guest_statrei_*]

I have no basis for denying whether one is guided by a spirit guide. However, if that spirit guide is not speaking to me as well any cooperative work between the two of us will have to exclude the spirit guide's absolute advice. In other words, nothing goes by this mass of gray matter without scrutiny. God knows all my contact information and we are on speaking terms so he is not going to give anyone messages for me. It is almost criminal the way the church encourages the mindset that faith is antithetical to reason and logic. I would call that a crime against humanity.

[watchbird]

I have no basis for denying whether one is guided by a spirit guide. However, if that spirit guide is not speaking to me as well any cooperative work between the two of us will have to exclude the spirit guide's absolute advice. In other words, nothing goes by this mass of gray matter without scrutiny. God knows all my contact information and we are on speaking terms so he is not going to give anyone messages for me. It is almost criminal the way the church encourages the mindset that faith is antithetical to reason and logic. I would call that a crime against humanity.

If you would change "the church" to "some in the church", or even "some segments of the church", then I could agree with all you say above.

But for myself, I identify "the church", as a generalization, with the mainline organization, not with the "independent ministry" organizations. And the mainline church as a whole is very "reason and logic" oriented--and encourages their young people to educate themselves to the extent of their capability.

But it is true that the anti-education forces are still strong. They think in terms of "control or be controlled" and they value "clout" as Prisca put it--whether that clout comes from money or mysticism--above individuality, freedom, and personal responsibility. 3ABN represents this sector of the church very well. Which is why many in the mainline church see them as setting up a "para-church" competitive organization that is parasitic on the main organization.

There has to come a break. The only questions are how that break will be achieved, and what will be the results.

[Guest_statrei_*]

I understand you watchbird, but religion as a whole advocates that what cannot pass smell test of reason and logic must be accepted by faith. How else would we convince people that the Bible is the word of God or that the entire universe was made in one day while it took six to make the earth alone?

[missthg]

Now you know - there are some members at my home church who will contest that very statement. They swear that you have to some to church to meet God. I tell you I have have had some of my best praise and worship on the way to work in my car.

That whole thing about we missed you is bogus at best. If you didn't think about me until you saw me - then you didn't miss me at church. And to say otherwise is purely pharisee speak to me. I can meet Jesus anytime/anywhere I want to. The beach - my job - at home - in the park, etc. I've learned not to expect to find love in the church and to be open to recieve it when it comes. If not - then I can't be disappointed when it's not there...

then hell it is... cause there is no need to stay where there is no genuine love.... let's not pretend... when you don't go to church and no one calls, don't be hurt, if you were important they would call.... and we all know you dont have to go to church to meet God...

[Johann]

I understand you watchbird, but religion as a whole advocates that what cannot pass smell test of reason and logic must be accepted by faith. How else would we convince people that the Bible is the word of God or that the entire universe was made in one day while it took six to make the earth alone?

Let's watch out here that we do not get Some of this could be discused elsewhere.

[Clay]

And my questions and confusion about Prisca's comments above carry over into yours, Clay, for I can see your statement as being applicable to the person who has or thinks he has a "spirit guide" who speaks to him. But I don't see it applying to the mind set that glorifies not being educated. So would you expand on your meaning a little more especially how you were tying it to Prisca's comment?

just because someone says that they "hear a voice" telling them something doesn't mean I need to follow their directives..... be they educated or not....