A Time For Action Options

[PrincessDrRe]

You are suggesting the same method that 3ABN has used against Linda. Is it wrong for them, and right for us? Do we want to operate on the same level that we have condemned in them?

NOTE: If you were to do such, you would clearly open yourself up to a potential civil lawsuit.

I believe that you can only be "sued" if they can prove you wrong. Since too much info proves Danny wrong - I believe the ball is not in his court anymore.

Besides.

What if the "good Dr" had sent the letter personally to the ABC's? What would be different?



None - IMO.

[September]

You are suggesting the same method that 3ABN has used against Linda. Is it wrong for them, and right for us? Do we want to operate on the same level that we have condemned in them?

NOTE: If you were to do such, you would clearly open yourself up to a potential civil lawsuit.

How is that? I thought one of the points of the letter that the Dr. wrote was to get the word out about what Danny has done to Linda...then Calvin placed this call to action and encouraged us to do what we could to spread the word and get the truth out there. I hardly think I would be subjected to a civil lawsuit any more than anyone else who would share the letter.

[watchbird]

How is that? I thought one of the points of the letter that the Dr. wrote was to get the word out about what Danny has done to Linda...then Calvin placed this call to action and encouraged us to do what we could to spread the word and get the truth out there. I hardly think I would be subjected to a civil lawsuit any more than anyone else who would share the letter.

The point of the letter was that Linda was innocent, and that the Dr. was also innocent. The call to action is to spread the word as to where people can find information. The difference in what you suggested and what others have suggested was the part about telling the ABC guy to pull 3ABN stuff off the shelves. It is fine to go to the ABC guy and say, "Look, are you aware of the "other side" of the things that are said about 3ABN in these books you are selling of theirs?" And are you aware that Dr. Abrahamson has written a letter giving his side of the story? And then ask if he will read the material on the website, including the letter. Or give him a copy of the letter if you wish. But don't push him. After he has had a chance to read BSDA, then go back in and ask him what he thinks about it, and what he thinks should be done. And don't be surprised if he is very non-committal. He does not, ITFA have the authority to refuse to handle books that patrons have requested except in the rare instances where the Church officials hand down "orders". And as I said, that is a very rare occurance.

[calvin]

The question has been asked: "Daryl, will MSAOL join us in this effort, Observer and others at CA will you help?" The follow-up question is: How can one effect a change at 3ABN?

In my thinking, the answers fall into the following categories:

1) God will need to bring about change.

This answer suggests two possibilities. One might do nothing and simply wait for God to act. Or, one might take some action, in an attempt to cooperate with God in bringing about change.

2) Someone steps forward to use civil institutions to effect that needed change.

This could be the filing of a civil lawsuit, or of criminal charges, is cause existed for such. It could include investigations by IRS authorities, if reason for such existed. There are probably other venues and methods that could be used to e effect change.

My personal opinion as to how we can effect change is:

a) I think that we are very limited in effecting change through the SDA denomination. I do not think that the SDA denomination has much "clout" in effecting change, contrary the thinking of others.

Those with inside information can work with the IRS to do forensic audits of 3ABN's books. But that is a long-shot. It is doubtful that anything could be discovered that would result in more than additional payments of taxes and potentially fines. Such would not likely "bring down" 3ABN, if that was desired.

c) Effecting change at 3ABN might require someone like Linda (Dr. A, and there are others) file a civil action for libel. Under the right circumstances this might get things out into the open that would bring about a change in 3ABN. But, such would come at a high cost to some people, such as Linda. The possibility exists that her "ministry" would be "dead in the water," so to speak. Only she (and the others) can make the decision as to whether or not they are wiling to pay that Cost.

d) Effecting change at 3ABN might require someone with in-depth personal involvement to come forward publicly. Let me give an example: Let us say that a leader at 3ABN (You may pick any person you wish.) had a sexual relationship with someone other than their marital spouse, and that this was an important issues in this discussion. That relationship might have been consensual. It might not have been consensual. But, it was a relationship. That person might need for come forward publicly. Doing so would result in paying a big price.

Folks, there may be innocent victims in this case. These "innocent victims" may not be willing to pay the price.

The above is simply my personal opinion as to what it may take to effect change at 3ABN.

You ask how can BSDA or any message board effect change at 3ABN, you also believe that there is little we can do to make a difference. I think you are wrong. 50 years ago a woman refused to go to back of the bus. Black people rallied around Rosa Parks and boycotted the bus company and after several months not only did not have to go to the back of the bus, but they got Black bus drivers too, thus the civil rights movement was born. This is one example, but throughout history we have examples of one person, or a small group of people driving change.

I can only assume that you are in the do nothing/wait on the Lord camp. I am not. God uses human agent to do His work. Jesus was a man of action. I believe the Lord expects us to everything in our power to help ourselves and others. Personally, I just feel better when I know that I have done all that I can and then put it God’s hands.

We don’t need someone filing a law suit for tax evasion as you suggested. Regardless of Danny’s hold on 3ABN, when he becomes a liability to the church, 3ABN will be cutoff. I believe there are men and women of influence with backbone, that maybe where not aware of these allegations made by Dr. A,. that will ask will want to get to the bottom of this, that do believe that our church leaders and public figures should adhere to high moral and ethical standards, if not then this church is really in a sorry state of affairs.

I was talking with someone who attended the 3abn campmeeting in May. Danny repeatedly told the crowd that he is tired of responding to rumors and lies about him and his ministry. He said he is not answering anymore questions. He wants this to go away. This is all the more reason we need to get this letter out so the questions will continue to be asked….and as Watchbird suggest, get the Dr Thompson letter out too and let people decide who is lying.

[sonshineonme]

You ask how can BSDA or any message board effect change at 3ABN, you also believe that there is little we can do to make a difference. I think you are wrong. 50 years ago a woman refused to go to back of the bus. Black people rallied around Rosa Parks and boycotted the bus company and after several months not only did not have to go to the back of the bus, but they got Black bus drivers too, thus the civil rights movement was born. This is one example, but throughout history we have examples of one person, or a small group of people driving change.

I can only assume that you are in the do nothing/wait on the Lord camp. I am not. God uses human agent to do His work. Jesus was a man of action. I believe the Lord expects us to everything in our power to help ourselves and others. Personally, I just feel better when I know that I have done all that I can and then put it God’s hands.

We don’t need someone filing a law suit for tax evasion as you suggested. Regardless of Danny’s hold on 3ABN, when he becomes a liability to the church, 3ABN will be cutoff. I believe there are men and women of influence with backbone, that maybe where not aware of these allegations made by Dr. A,. that will ask will want to get to the bottom of this, that do believe that our church leaders and public figures should adhere to high moral and ethical standards, if not then this church is really in a sorry state of affairs.

I was talking with someone who attended the 3abn campmeeting in May. Danny repeatedly told the crowd that he is tired of responding to rumors and lies about him and his ministry. He said he is not answering anymore questions. He wants this to go away. This is all the more reason we need to get this letter out so the questions will continue to be asked….and as Watchbird suggest, get the Dr Thompson letter out too and let people decide who is lying.

Danny will have to answer more whether he wants to or not. He started this mess.
I am taking a few copies of Dr. Arild Abrahamsen's letter with me to campmeeting tomorrow. I am praying (and would like prayer) for guidance of where to leave them, and that they go to the right peoples hands. If anyone has a strong feeling about my placement of these, please write me. I really want the might hand of God to multiply my efforts as he did the loaves and fishes.

This post has been edited by sonshineonme: Jul 16 2006, 09:56 PM

[sister]

Danny will have to answer more whether he wants to or not. He started this mess.
I am taking a few copies of Dr. Arild Abrahamsen's letter with me to campmeeting tomorrow. I am praying (and would like prayer) for guidance of where to leave them, and that they go to the right peoples hands. If anyone has a strong feeling about my placement of these, please write me. I really want the might hand of God to multiply my efforts as he did the loaves and fishes.

Sonshineonme, if you want God to multiply your efforts, than multiply the number of copies. Let them flood the campmeeting like the rising tide on the shoreline. The more that are available, the sooner it will become an active topic. He is faithful and your efforts will bear fruit. Be bold, be strong, the Lord thy God is with Thee! You go girl!

[LadyTenor]

The only reason Danny can sue is for defamation of character. Yes, this is on the bar exam....

Without going into the legal details (unless anyone here wants me to), my opinion is that Danny has no case. Even if he did, he has nothing to gain from any of us here unless some of us are wealthy and have assets in our own names for him to attach a judgement to. There is always the route of an injunction...but I digress...

...Danny has no case...

[Nuggie]

The only reason Danny can sue is for defamation of character. Yes, this is on the bar exam....

Without going into the legal details (unless anyone here wants me to), my opinion is that Danny has no case. Even if he did, he has nothing to gain from any of us here unless some of us are wealthy and have assets in our own names for him to attach a judgement to. There is always the route of an injunction...but I digress...

...Danny has no case...

Even if he does sue wouldn't he run the risk of having all the gory details of this whole sordid mess dragged out into the open where he can be challenged directly? I'm guessing he would have to counter all of the accusations that were brought against him, right? And judging from what I've read in these threads he's not gonna want to have to answer direct questions about what is truth and what is fiction. So even if he can sue, he probably won't want to.

[watchbird]

Danny will have to answer more whether he wants to or not. He started this mess.
I am taking a few copies of Dr. Arild Abrahamsen's letter with me to campmeeting tomorrow. I am praying (and would like prayer) for guidance of where to leave them, and that they go to the right peoples hands. If anyone has a strong feeling about my placement of these, please write me. I really want the might hand of God to multiply my efforts as he did the loaves and fishes.

Sonshineonme, if you want God to multiply your efforts, than multiply the number of copies. Let them flood the campmeeting like the rising tide on the shoreline. The more that are available, the sooner it will become an active topic. He is faithful and your efforts will bear fruit. Be bold, be strong, the Lord thy God is with Thee! You go girl!

I agree with Sister. While God can multiply the effects of even a "few" like he did the loaves and fishes on that "campmeeting" so many years ago, he can do even more the more that he has to work with. I would suggest reducing the type size so the whole thing will take as few pages as possible, and do add a line recommending BSDA and giving the url for those who desire "more information." Do at least a triple fold, perhaps a quad would be better, so they are easily carried in your purse, and will take up comparatively little space on an "exhibit" table -- and if possible, print them so that there will be an attention grabbing question on what will become the outside, top fold,

As to where to put them? The absolute best place to start is "at the top". While it could be devastating to get a "no" answer, talking with your Conference President, or if he is not available some other highly placed official, so as to let them know your concerns and the purpose of your passing out such materials and if possible to secure at least their tacit approval, is absolutely the best way to go. Every campmeeting has its flock of detractors hanging about like a cloud of mosquitos, and most every campmeeting attendee has learned to avoid them like the plague. So you want to make as sure as possible that you and your material will not be classed with them.

The next step would be to find one or more already established exhibits booths who will allow you to place your material on their table and will be willing to keep an eye on it so as to prevent those who might walk up and take the whole stack so as to merely dispose of it. Again, if you can get an official church department to do so, that would be best--perhaps family ministries or women's ministries might be willing to do so. Perhaps Polly's Place will have a booth there? If so, then it is highly likely that whoever is representing them there would be glad to have your letter on their table.

And besides these display places, of course, carry a supply with you so as to have one to offer to any whom you meet and who shows interest. If you have time you could "hang around" the ABC area where 3ABN books are on display and keep an ear out for any who look as though they might already be having questions about them.

This may be much to short notice for you to do very much along these lines, and if so, just do what you can for now, and work towards the larger goals as you can. God will bless.

[watchbird]

Calvin,

It was exactly three months ago today when I made the first post in the thread “An Unauthorized History of 3ABN”. The Lord impressed me that I had information to share and that BSDA was the right place and it was the right time. We have struggled twice over the closing of thread and reopening it. Both times, even though you were personally not convinced of the truth contained in all of my narratives, you still upheld my right to continue to speak freely within certain agreed upon boundaries. And it was you who approached me in regard to gathering all the 3ABN threads together in their own section, including the chapter divisions of “An Unauthorized History of 3ABN” in order to make the information more easily accessible. Personally, I believe that it was the Lord’s leading. And now with the testimony of Dr. Arild Abrahamsen, you have publicly confessed that you no longer stand on the fence, but accept the truth of his witness.

Calvin, I want to personally thank you for spearheading this call for action. Like the good Samaritan, you have seen the victims lying at the side of the road—battered, bruised and bleeding—and instead of merely stopping with a look of sadness on your face and shaking your head at the iniquity of it all and then going on—you knelt down. Not worrying about the victims blood staining your clothing, you gently began to minister to their needs—with no thought for yourself. Your actions speak loudly and I am sure that they are registered in the Lamb’s Book of Life. God bless you, Calvin, for following your conviction to do what is just.

Sister

I want to add my personal thanks to that of Sister's above. And I also want to personally thank you, Sister, for your sensitivity to the Lord's leading and your willingness to follow your conviction and prepare and present your very helpful narratives. They have been, IMO, the catalyst and the guiding star that has welded the various stories together as others came forward to share, and has pointed us in the directions we needed to look in order to find truth and display it for the world to see.

I do hope that you will be returning soon with new chapters in the "Unauthorized History". There are many more stories that need to be told, and the passing of time will make even more of the old stories both safe and appropriate to tell.

Thank you. Thank you.

[LadyTenor]

Even if he does sue wouldn't he run the risk of having all the gory details of this whole sordid mess dragged out into the open where he can be challenged directly? I'm guessing he would have to counter all of the accusations that were brought against him, right? And judging from what I've read in these threads he's not gonna want to have to answer direct questions about what is truth and what is fiction. So even if he can sue, he probably won't want to.

[icedragon]

Many have called for this a time to pray for God’s intervention into 3ABN, put it in the Lords hand and let His will be done. There is a time to pray and then there is a time to act! So what are we going to do? Sit passively by and post another couple thousand messages on the subject? Anyone that reads this letter has to give pause and concern about the leadership of 3ABN, about what has been distributed as the official spin from them.

Why don’t we in a grassroots effort distribute this letter to our church pastor, members, conferences, union and GC leadership; Breath of life, Amazing Facts, AR, friends, family, etc, etc. 3ABN is a private independent ministry that is not answerable to the Adventist church in any official capacity, but 3ABN needs the church to survive. We need to get the donors, and church leaders and others of influence to ask questions and seek answers from 3ABN in light of this letter, possibly call for an independent investigation.

Daryl, will MSAOL join us in this effort, Observer and others at CA will you help?

Here is my opening paragraph. Feel free to use it or any part.

Here is a letter that was first published on blacksda.com, an independent Adventist virtual online community. 3ABN has been a tremendous asset and invaluable resource in spreading the Advent message. However, this letter brings to light some unChrist-like practices of the 3ABN leadership. The management of BlackSDA is calling for 3ABN to answer these allegations and submit to an independent investigation.

I will help in any way I can. I live in a major Sda Center I will make sure they know the truth. I would like to request that a the interviews of all parties be put together in one location in a readable format, easy to read,easy to acess. I am also in favor of a petition drive to have Danny, Kay and Walter removed from the respective position @ 3abn or face a financial strike. Danny, kay and Walter must be brought under church discipline, up to and including disfellowship. Danny must relinquish his role and head of 3abn and linda must be reinstated. Kay & Walter should be banned from 3abn or any other SDA TV ministry for life. this is a serious breach of christian ethics and morality. The danny reminds me, strikingly to AT Jones of 1888 fame. check out George Knights book "From 1888 to Apostasy" danny reminds me of Him. scary. strong will, hard headed, aggressive people. who thought they were special and above church authority and God. Again anything I can do to help I will.

God bless
the "ICE DRAGON" put'n you in the deep freeze

The only reason Danny can sue is for defamation of character. Yes, this is on the bar exam....

Without going into the legal details (unless anyone here wants me to), my opinion is that Danny has no case. Even if he did, he has nothing to gain from any of us here unless some of us are wealthy and have assets in our own names for him to attach a judgement to. There is always the route of an injunction...but I digress...

...Danny has no case...

Please go into all the gory detail of.defimation of charchater lawsuits.

The question has been asked: "Daryl, will MSAOL join us in this effort, Observer and others at CA will you help?" The follow-up question is: How can one effect a change at 3ABN?

In my thinking, the answers fall into the following categories:

1) God will need to bring about change.

This answer suggests two possibilities. One might do nothing and simply wait for God to act. Or, one might take some action, in an attempt to cooperate with God in bringing about change.

2) Someone steps forward to use civil institutions to effect that needed change.

This could be the filing of a civil lawsuit, or of criminal charges, is cause existed for such. It could include investigations by IRS authorities, if reason for such existed. There are probably other venues and methods that could be used to e effect change.

My personal opinion as to how we can effect change is:

a) I think that we are very limited in effecting change through the SDA denomination. I do not think that the SDA denomination has much "clout" in effecting change, contrary the thinking of others.

Those with inside information can work with the IRS to do forensic audits of 3ABN's books. But that is a long-shot. It is doubtful that anything could be discovered that would result in more than additional payments of taxes and potentially fines. Such would not likely "bring down" 3ABN, if that was desired.

c) Effecting change at 3ABN might require someone like Linda (Dr. A, and there are others) file a civil action for libel. Under the right circumstances this might get things out into the open that would bring about a change in 3ABN. But, such would come at a high cost to some people, such as Linda. The possibility exists that her "ministry" would be "dead in the water," so to speak. Only she (and the others) can make the decision as to whether or not they are wiling to pay that Cost.

d) Effecting change at 3ABN might require someone with in-depth personal involvement to come forward publicly. Let me give an example: Let us say that a leader at 3ABN (You may pick any person you wish.) had a sexual relationship with someone other than their marital spouse, and that this was an important issues in this discussion. That relationship might have been consensual. It might not have been consensual. But, it was a relationship. That person might need for come forward publicly. Doing so would result in paying a big price.

Folks, there may be innocent victims in this case. These "innocent victims" may not be willing to pay the price.

The above is simply my personal opinion as to what it may take to effect change at 3ABN.

Who is the observer and msaol are they web sites?

[simplysaved]

You are suggesting the same method that 3ABN has used against Linda. Is it wrong for them, and right for us? Do we want to operate on the same level that we have condemned in them?

NOTE: If you were to do such, you would clearly open yourself up to a potential civil lawsuit.

I am with you on this one and would not be Christ-like on those of us who claim to serve Him....I have said in another thread and I will reprint the post with highlights in bold:

Is it being suggested that Danny Shelton may have bipolar disorder and that this is reason for his choices over the past few years?

Will Dr. Abrahamsen be willing to do an interview here at BSDA related to what is presented in the letter?

The other question that I have related to the letter posted (in segments) is will/has the doctor formally sent the letter to:

1. NAD
2. 3ABN Board of Directors
3. All persons mentioned in the letter

I would personally like the opportunity to dialogue with him here at BSDA and hear what the feedback response has been on those outlined in the allegations after they have had ample time to receive the letter from Dr. Abrahamsen. I would also like the opportunity to place responsibility back on those who directly know of the injustice to lead instead of what may come off as giving the responsibility to someone else or "passing the buck"---first.


This post has been edited by simplysaved: Jul 17 2006, 02:17 PM

[simplysaved]

I want to add something else...we just had a person baptized at my church this past Sabbath who became a Christian and a SDA through 3ABN....before anything is passed or forwarded anywhere by me related to this letter, I need to hear it from God that this is how it should be handled and Dr. Abrahamsen that he has followed Matthew 18....

[watchbird]

I will help in any way I can. I live in a major Sda Center I will make sure they know the truth. I would like to request that a the interviews of all parties be put together in one location in a readable format, easy to read,easy to acess. I am also in favor of a petition drive to have Danny, Kay and Walter removed from the respective position @ 3abn or face a financial strike. Danny, kay and Walter must be brought under church discipline, up to and including disfellowship. Danny must relinquish his role and head of 3abn and linda must be reinstated. Kay & Walter should be banned from 3abn or any other SDA TV ministry for life. this is a serious breach of christian ethics and morality. The danny reminds me, strikingly to AT Jones of 1888 fame. check out George Knights book "From 1888 to Apostasy" danny reminds me of Him. scary. strong will, hard headed, aggressive people. who thought they were special and above church authority and God. Again anything I can do to help I will.

God bless
the "ICE DRAGON" put'n you in the deep freeze
Please go into all the gory detail of.defimation of charchater lawsuits.

Who is the observer and msaol are they web sites?

Observer is a screen name for someone on a forum. msaol is most likely a typo. MSDAOL is the Maratime SDA On Line Forum, run by Daryl Fawcett, who also posts here on BSDA.

As to your list of names to be put on a petition--it is very incomplete. Perhaps you haven't read all ten chapters of The Unauthorized History of 3ABN" yet. Read the whole thing, and encourage all you know in that "major SDA center" to do likewise. our role is to collect the stories and make them available. When all are informed, then will come the time for the right persons to make the judgements and execute the sentences. Making premature ones before all the facts are in may impede rather than facilitate the wheels of justice.