The Dreams & Visions Concerning 3abn, A short letter from Barbara Kerr Options

[PrincessDrRe]

thank you Re'..... I had a dream when my wife was pregnant.... we didn't know the gender of the baby..... the ultrasound didn't show because the baby was turned in a position where you couldn't see..... I had a dream of a little girl, head full of braids, giggling while sitting on a couch.... I told my wife... we did not get another ultrasound, but the baby was a girl..... born with a head full of hair... and eventually that hair was braided... and she often sat on the couch giggling.....

whut?

Got you too!

My Father dreamed of a little gurl wearing brown overalls, pigtails - and chewing on a chicken leg. He never told my Mother the details. He only told my Mother he dreamed I was a "girl".....

Later the picture was taken - when my Father wasn't home (long-haul truck driving) - I was in brown overalls, pigtails, and chewing on celery!

It began with a "C".....



...but this was actually the "proving" dream for my Father. He had several dreams before this one - but would "ignore" them ....

From this time on - (me as an "infant") he began to write down his dreams and later - (after I got older) he would "discuss them in detail" with me.....

Around the age of 5 I started having "dreams". I told my Father and he would listen very intently. I remember him listening like I was telling the "news"....I didn't understand it until I was about 10-11 years old...... I too have a "GIFT OF DREAMS"......

...and why lie? Sometimes it scares me.....

[September]

deleted

This post has been edited by September: Aug 16 2006, 10:01 PM

[Clay]

It may sound like that to you..... maybe there are some things in life that one should take seriously enough to approach them with .... what's the phrase I've heard here so often? ... "a healthy skeptisim".

The question about visions or dreams that are merely for the purpose of giving information to satisfy someone's curiosity or to give them a feeling of knowing the future is not whether or not they are "legit" in the sense of whether "time will tell". The facts are that they are very seductive and even addictive, and they promote a "hunger for the supernatural" which then gives opportunity for the "wrong" kind of spirits to insert ideas.

Our church has erred in its way of warning against Pentecostalism. Our conservatives, especially, will get all bent out of shape and throw tantrums that are quite literally "heard round the world" when it comes to something like lively music or a worship service that is similar in arrangement to a "Pentecostal" service. But when real Pentecostalism walks in the church, gets up in the pulpit, and is written out in officially published books .... no one bats an eye. We simply lap it up like cream and go looking for more of the same kind ..... only more spectacular than what our neighbor experienced.

I hope you are just as skeptical when that pastor, or conference leader gets up and says, " the lord told me," or " I was impressed by the Holy Spirit to tell you," or any of those phrases that preachers use just before they "share" what the "Lord" has told them.....

like I said, you overreact... no one has mentioned doing anything you have suggested..... you see it as a road going towards something very bad.... and it may not be that at all....

[PrincessDrRe]

I just want people to understand and know that there are SDA's/CHRISTians that "have dreams" that are interpretable or the "Gift of Dreams" per se.... I want people to know that not everyone that "dreams DREAMS" is a fruity nut.

[Hersheys99]

I just want people to understand and know that there are SDA's/CHRISTians that "have dreams" that are interpretable or the "Gift of Dreams" per se.... I want people to know that not everyone that "dreams DREAMS" is a fruity nut.

Amen Re!!

[alramwill]

I hope you are just as skeptical when that pastor, or conference leader gets up and says, " the lord told me," or " I was impressed by the Holy Spirit to tell you," or any of those phrases that preachers use just before they "share" what the "Lord" has told them.....

like I said, you overreact... no one has mentioned doing anything you have suggested..... you see it as a road going towards something very bad.... and it may not be that at all....

Hit the nail on the head....

[September]

I just want people to understand and know that there are SDA's/CHRISTians that "have dreams" that are interpretable or the "Gift of Dreams" per se.... I want people to know that not everyone that "dreams DREAMS" is a fruity nut.

I totally agree with you...and perhaps my post to Clay was making light of that so I'm going to try to remove that post...

I believe that people do have dreams and that some are from God and would never want to make light of that.

[watchbird]

I hope you are just as skeptical when that pastor, or conference leader gets up and says, " the lord told me," or " I was impressed by the Holy Spirit to tell you," or any of those phrases that preachers use just before they "share" what the "Lord" has told them.....

like I said, you overreact... no one has mentioned doing anything you have suggested..... you see it as a road going towards something very bad.... and it may not be that at all....

I am indeed just as skeptical. And I've heard enough of that kind of "God talk" to last a lifetime. But I do take into consideration the rest of the context in which the phrase is used. Plenty of time it is but a manner of speaking of the way that God does work through the workings of a person's mind in what can appropriately IMO be spoken of as "impressions from the Holy Spirit". Unfortunately, all too often ..... especially when a conference leader is trying to put a square peg in a round hole.... it is inappropriate manipulation with no "impressions" of any kind other than that there's an undesirable position to be filled.

But when it is in the context of a frankly Pentecostal church in which the members are taught to follow the leader unquestioningly whenever he claims that God is speaking to him .... then the ante goes up. Is it actually mere manipulation, or is it some "familiar spirit" that is actualy talking to the person? And when the individual is not merely speaking in generalities from the pulpit, but is talking one on one and saying, "I hear God telling me right now that you are thinking such and such...." Then you better believe that the ante has gone up a great deal higher yet. And in these circumstances, in my book, accuracy is much more liable to be the sign of "communing with an evil spirit" than that it is merely manipulation..... For I simply do not believe that God works like that.

And what has been described to me as the way Danny relates to people can be described in exactly those terms. How much those practices extend to others at 3ABN, I do not know. How much they are practiced by others in our church .... I don't know that either. I won't be lured into passing judgement on any person's experience. But in general I am very convicted that entertaining any paranormal experience is a dangerous thing for a Christian to do.

[Barbara Kerr]

I'm sorry, Barb. I don't like to be the one to "rain on your parade". But I think we are venturing on to the same Pentecostal "enchanted ground" which is held at 3ABN, and to which I object on doctrinal grounds, when we start putting emphasis on dreams and visions. And I don't think that it is our place to presume to read the mind of God as to whether Linda's "rightful position" is restoration to management of 3ABN. I have no doubt but what God wants her to use her talents and experience for His glory and in His service. But I have grave doubts about whether we should assume what that place should be.

Dear Watchbird,

Believe me, I have thought long and hard about posting this page. It is only here because it happened, and I think people deserve to at least read about it.

Hasn't our church always put emphasis on dreams and visions? Where would we be as a church today without Mrs. White's dreams and visions?

In Acts 2:17-18 it says, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy." NKJV

This identical passage is also found in Joel 2:28-29.

We have so many Biblical examples of how God spoke to people through dreams.

1) Matthew 2:13, an Angel appeared to Joseph in a dream. In chapter 27:19 Pilate's wife instructs her husband not to have anything to do with Jesus because of what she had suffered in a dream.

2) In Luke 24:23, the women that showed up at Jesus' tomb were there because they had seen a vision of angels who had said Jesus was alive.

3) In Genesis 37: 5-10, Joseph dreams about sheaves of wheat bowing down to him and about the sun, moon and stars bowing down -- and he was rebuked for his dreams.

4) In Numbers 12:6 it says, "Then He said, 'Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision, And I speak to him in a dream.'"

5) And finally in Jeremiah 23:28-29 it says, "'The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream;And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?' says the Lord, 'Is not My word like a fire?' says the Lord, 'And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?'"

You're absolutely right about not presuming where God wants Linda right now! I was clearly too vague in my over-zealous "cheer" to help restore her to her position. Mentally I am so far beyond thinking about Linda being placed as the head of 3ABN. I have no idea what God's plans are for that ministry or whom the Lord will choose to lead it. (I actually think that Wintley Phipps is a Godly man that could steer this ministry and take over leadership tomorrow). What I desire for Linda, is to be restored to her position "publicly". It's more about her ability to work in ministry, the job she loves above all else, having her image as an adulterous woman stricken from the record in the Adventist church, so-to-speak. I'm not even sure if that's possible, but I know that it is forums like these that give a voice to those that need to be heard.

My final reason for posting the dreams about 3ABN comes from Habakkuk 2:2-3
"Write the vision, And make it plain on tablets, That he may run who reads it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time; But at the end it will speak, and it will not lie. Though it tarries, wait for it; Because it will surely come, It will not tarry." (All quotes taken from NKJV)

Watchbird, I know these types of things pull us out of our comfort zone and we have a need to make everything around us mesh with our own realities of life, love and religion.

This woman isn't flying a banner anywhere, she didn't ask for the dreams, but God chose her to give them to.

I can tell you that she is an extremely sweet, kind-hearted Seventh Day Adventist woman in her 60's, that wants nothing more than for Jesus to come quickly. She's not trying to call herself a prophet, she's not puffed up or conceited. She IS a humble prayer warrior that loves her Savior very much!

Your reaction to the dreams has made me ponder just what our response will be as Adventist when our sons and our daughters shall prophesy, our young men shall see visions, and our old men shall dream dreams?

Watchbird, I promise you, I am NOT trying to be "Pentecostal". I hope this helps and I'm so thankful for your honesty in your letter. You are a sweet woman.

Barbara Kerr

[Ralph]

I agree, it made me question the validity of the other letter that was written.......

It does not make me question the validity of the the first letter that Barbara wrote. That is rock solid and most of it is verifiable. So let's not let this discussion take the forefront and ignore her main message.

BUT I do question who gave the message to the woman. Maybe we will never know, as there are things that happen in the supernatural world that are beyond our understanding.

When my mother's first husband died, his mother, a wonderful Christian woman, was in the pantry. She turned around and saw her son standing in the doorway although he should have been miles away. She reached out her arms and exclaimed in her Norwegian accent, "VI ARRY". And with that "Harry" disappeared. She knew immediately that he was dead. Was the being angelic or Satanic. I have my thoughts.

One thing that concerns me. The voice said, “LINDA LEFT DANNY”. That was a bald face lie unless we disregard all the evidence that has been presented so far. "Linda left Danny" -- That has been what Danny wants us to believe when in reality Danny kicked her out. So without any other hint than that one, I question the source of the information even if the woman was a Christian. (The Devil harasses Christians, too.)

Like Gamaliel, we will just have to wait and see.

[watchbird]

Dear Watchbird,

Believe me, I have thought long and hard about posting this page. It is only here because it happened, and I think people deserve to at least read about it.

Hasn't our church always put emphasis on dreams and visions? Where would we be as a church today without Mrs. White's dreams and visions?

Thank you for your sweet spirit in writing, Barbara. I shall try to respond likewise.
"Has our church always put emphasis on dreams and visions?" No, it has not. In the beginning, even at the same time that James White was being appreciative of the messages God was giving through Ellen White, he cautioned against putting too much emphasis on the "gifts". What our church has always put the most emphasis on is God's word to us as recorded in scripture.

In Acts 2:17-18 it says, "And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams. And on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days; And they shall prophesy." NKJV

This identical passage is also found in Joel 2:28-29.

Be careful of your context. The Acts context is that of saying that the preaching of the apostles on the day of Pentecost was a fulfillment of the prophecy in Joel. And when one examines the use of the words, "visions" and "dreams", one must also recognize that they do not always have the same meaning. Yes, we speak of a hallucinatory experience as a "vision". But we also speak of someone having a "vision" of doing a certain thing, meaning only that the person had the idea and the ability to think through that idea until it became a plan. And the same with the word "dream". It can mean the brain activity that goes on while we sleep...... but it can also mean conscious thought activity in thinking about some plan or desire that one has.

We have so many Biblical examples of how God spoke to people through dreams.

1) Matthew 2:13, an Angel appeared to Joseph in a dream. In chapter 27:19 Pilate's wife instructs her husband not to have anything to do with Jesus because of what she had suffered in a dream.

2) In Luke 24:23, the women that showed up at Jesus' tomb were there because they had seen a vision of angels who had said Jesus was alive.

3) In Genesis 37: 5-10, Joseph dreams about sheaves of wheat bowing down to him and about the sun, moon and stars bowing down -- and he was rebuked for his dreams.

4) In Numbers 12:6 it says, "Then He said, 'Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you, I, the Lord, make Myself known to him in a vision, And I speak to him in a dream.'"

5) And finally in Jeremiah 23:28-29 it says, "'The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream;And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?' says the Lord, 'Is not My word like a fire?' says the Lord, 'And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?'"

"So many"? How many hundred years did the writing of scripture cover? How many in any one generation had any dreams or visions that they claimed were from the Lord? How many generations were there between the dreams or visions that are recorded? As for Jeremiah, doesn't it say "The prophet who has a dream, let him tell..."? Having a dream does not make one a prophet.

You're absolutely right about not presuming where God wants Linda right now! I was clearly too vague in my over-zealous "cheer" to help restore her to her position. Mentally I am so far beyond thinking about Linda being placed as the head of 3ABN. I have no idea what God's plans are for that ministry or whom the Lord will choose to lead it. (I actually think that Wintley Phipps is a Godly man that could steer this ministry and take over leadership tomorrow). What I desire for Linda, is to be restored to her position "publicly". It's more about her ability to work in ministry, the job she loves above all else, having her image as an adulterous woman stricken from the record in the Adventist church, so-to-speak. I'm not even sure if that's possible, but I know that it is forums like these that give a voice to those that need to be heard.

I too share your dream that Linda will be completely exhonerated and that the roadblocks that have been cast in her way will become but stepping stones towards a more significant ministry than what she has known up to this time. I'm glad that you're "cheer" for her restoration was in the sense of restoring her reputation and her opportunities for service. Since there are those, however, who might think in terms of putting her in what I would consider the very awkward and unenviable postition of returning to 3ABN on the basis of her former joint ownership there, I think we need to be very careful how we speak in "futures"..... even of future "dreams".

My final reason for posting the dreams about 3ABN comes from Habakkuk 2:2-3
"Write the vision, And make it plain on tablets, That he may run who reads it. For the vision is yet for an appointed time; But at the end it will speak, and it will not lie. Though it tarries, wait for it; Because it will surely come, It will not tarry." (All quotes taken from NKJV)

Again, as I said above.... the context. Are you really raising this woman who had the dreams to the level of a prophet? Are you really attaching prophetic import to her words, all of which, in common with most psychic occurances of this type are vague enough to lend them to multiple interpretations?

Watchbird, I know these types of things pull us out of our comfort zone and we have a need to make everything around us mesh with our own realities of life, love and religion.

You are quite right that the kind of attention you are giving to what are essentially psychic experiences, and the applications you are making of scripture in order to justify that attention is definitely "out of my comfort zone". I am comfortable with a belief system that is soundly based on scripture and in which one finds comfort in applying the promises of scripture to ones "own realities of life, love and religion." There are far too many diverse voices, all claiming a connection with some supernatural source of information, for me to be comfortable with going to any of these for my comfort.

This woman isn't flying a banner anywhere, she didn't ask for the dreams, but God chose her to give them to.

How do you know that God gave them to her? Dreams are functions of the mind. While it is true that God may speak in that method, it is also true that satan can also speak through that method, and it is equally true, and a whole lot more likely, that any given dream is the result of some natural function and is not influenced by either God nor satan.

I can tell you that she is an extremely sweet, kind-hearted Seventh Day Adventist woman in her 60's, that wants nothing more than for Jesus to come quickly. She's not trying to call herself a prophet, she's not puffed up or conceited. She IS a humble prayer warrior that loves her Savior very much!

One does not have to be puffed up or conceited to be mistaken about the importance of a dream, a premonition, a coincidence, or a sudden seemingly new thought that suddenly comes to one's mind.

Your reaction to the dreams has made me ponder just what our response will be as Adventist when our sons and our daughters shall prophesy, our young men shall see visions, and our old men shall dream dreams?

I hope you can understand that I am just as concerned as you may be, maybe more, about this very thing. But I am much more concerned about us thinking something is of the Lord when it is in reality something being used by satan to entice us, than vice versa.

Watchbird, I promise you, I am NOT trying to be "Pentecostal". I hope this helps and I'm so thankful for your honesty in your letter. You are a sweet woman.

Barbara Kerr

I understand. The thing is, that one does not have to "try" to be Pentecostal. One only has to associate with Pentecostals enough so that their way of interpreting and applying scripture comes to take the place of the way Adventists have generally understood and applied it. When one associates with Adventists who have already substituted Pentecostal definitions and connotations for their vocabulary, and have put an Adventist overlay on what is basically a Pentecostal way of looking at things, then it is very difficult indeed to recognize what is Pentecostal and what is not. And at the moment, things are even more complicated by the fact that for the past 30 years, concepts from Pentecostalism have been promulgated by mainline Adventism.... even showing up in such trusted places as the Sabbath School lesson quarterly and the yearly Devotional book.

For example..... the very phrase you used above, "prayer warriors", is a term that is not only straight out of Pentecostalism, but is out of a specific variety of Pentecostalism. That was an unknown phrase in my youth and young adult days. Not until the mid 1970's, when "Deliverance Ministry" teachings came into Adventism, were we introduced to the "Warrior Prayer" with all of its accompanying doctrinal underpinnings, and the term "prayer warriors" followed shortly and for at least 10 years has been a standard term in Adventism today.

[Jvat]

Watchbird is a skeptic, and I suppose that it may take her a very long time to understand what some of us feel differently about. There is need to be cautious but the Scriptures also tell us that God's ways are not our ways nor His thoughts, our thoughts.

And it also tells us that you will hear a voice telling you "this is the way, walk in it." The Scriptures also speak of the gifts of the word of knowledge and the word of prophecy which we hardly hear about in SDAism today but there are some godly, very godly SDAs with these gifts whom God has used to help others.

We are told to try the spirits and see whether they be of God and to prove all things and hold fast to that which is good. Let us do just that by God's grace.

Barbara, I appreciate your attitude.

[västergötland]

It appears to me, having read all the comments thus far, that the dreams are probably real but there seems to be disagreement on who the source of these dreams might be.



Watchbird, I think the aversion towards anything "extraordinary" explains the pentecostal stamp you had on Roger Morneau in another thread. I can see that having the practise of doubting any miracles not read about in the bible or in Ellens biography being from God would lead to such a result.



I find the all out denial and/or rejection of modern day prophecy strange for a denomination that counts a prophet as one of the key founders and at that have modern day prophecy as a fundamental belief (nr 18) and even calls it an identifying mark of itself. Of course one should not accept everything anyone claims to have recieved in a dream or vision or even that anything anyone acctually have recieved in a dream or a vision is from God. But there are sound guidelines for identifying a prophet from God found in the bible that ought to be used, as contrary to shouting 'wolf' at the mere mention of "I have a dream.."



...



oh, ehm,



at the mere mention of "I have a dream from God".



Ralph made a good point conserning the contents of the messages. If the message said that linda left danny and the reality was the very opposite then that would be reason to step back and take a break.



I wonder if part of the devils plan to decieve if possible even the elect may be to make sdas so affraid of anything "pentecostal" that in hard times, God wont be able to fullfill any of his promises without being accused of being the devil. Similar to when Jesus healed a man on the sabbath and was accused of doing the healing by the power of belzebub. If a man would walk into an SDA church this next sabbath being blind and then walk out of the church seeing, lots of church members would (very likely) be freaked out and if this happened at the right/wrong(, depending on how one choose to see it) church the person/s involved in praying for the blind could be facing church dicipline (I believe, havent acctaully seen this happen).

[justme]

I, too noticed the "Linda left Danny" phrase, but then, how else would one say that she is gone. considering that he kicked her out of the ministry and his life. He was still where he had always been. Linda was fired because "TC1" (the chosen one) had said he doesn't want her around anymore. What else can you do when someone becomes violent and yells at you and tears doors off the hinges? You LEAVE.

[Nuggie]

I consider myself a skeptic...I take everything I hear and see with two grains of salt. But, on this issue of dreaming/visions or whatever you call it, I can tell you that it's real. I get nervous when my mother calls and says she had a dream about me because she is ALWAYS right! If she tells me not to do something based on a dream she had, I listen. My aunt has the same gift. The Lord reveals things to them in dreams. I don't have that gift...but I know from first-hand life experience that some people do and, like Re says, they're not fruity nuts...well, not all of them anyway