The Dreams & Visions Concerning 3abn, A short letter from Barbara Kerr Options

[watchbird]

I don't see why people are getting bent out of shape about someone sharing a dream that someone else had... we are not talking about telling the future per se, or a consistent report of "dreams," but one dream..... thus far.... and time will tell with regards to it....

Watchbird I disagree with your interpretation that the passage in Joel was fulfilled at pentecost... John the Revelator was having dreams and visions as he wrote on Patmos...and it may still happen today here and now.....

Actually, what I said was that the New Testament writer said this was being fulfilled at Pentecost. I did not say that this was the only legitimate application of it.

But what is interestingas to the direction this thread has taken is that while we have been making little pious "clucking" sounds when Sister told us about the Pentecostal influences at 3ABN, giving several things as examples... and almost "with one accord the congregation said 'AMEN'"..... when I ventured to point out that "dreams and visions" were one more example of Pentecostal belief that I consider errant ..... when used as Pentecostals do ..... ...... Oops .... that seems to be one of those "sacred cows" you were saying that BSDA loves to "barbeque" .......

I think I'll go into "lurk mode" for a while .....

[Clay]

Actually, what I said was that the New Testament writer said this was being fulfilled at Pentecost. I did not say that this was the only legitimate application of it.

But what is interestingas to the direction this thread has taken is that while we have been making little pious "clucking" sounds when Sister told us about the Pentecostal influences at 3ABN, giving several things as examples... and almost "with one accord the congregation said 'AMEN'"..... when I ventured to point out that "dreams and visions" were one more example of Pentecostal belief that I consider errant ..... when used as Pentecostals do ..... ...... Oops .... that seems to be one of those "sacred cows" you were saying that BSDA loves to "barbeque" .......

I think I'll go into "lurk mode" for a while .....

just cause folks believe dreams and visions can occur don't make those folks pentecostal..... and there are plenty of cows needing to be barbequed.... i just think you are wrong in this case..... and time will tell as far as the dream shared is concerned.....

as the old saying goes.... when the only tool you have is a hammer, pretty soon everything starts looking like a nail.....

[inga]

Well to add some fuel to the discussions. When Joshua said that the sun stood still, did it really? And yet he was mightily used of God and his record in the Scriptures is supposed to have been given to 'holy men who were moved of the Holy Ghost'. And yet that is how the story is written in the Bible. The story does not say that the earth stood still at all, although, scientifically/physically that is what really happened.

I have a question for you, Jvat:
When you speak of the relationship of the earth to the sun at the beginning of the day, do you say, "The sun has risen" or "The sunrise is beautiful"? Or do you say, 'The earth has turned" and "The earth's turning is revealing a beatuful section of space"?

If you don't speak of the earth's turning, but the sun rising and setting, why do you expect Joshua to speak that way? He was using ordinary speech addressing the apparent movement of the sun, just as we do today. He wasn't attempting to make a scientific statement any more than we do when we speak of sunsets.

Can we ALWAYS presume to understand the way that God works? And when we are checking the Scriptures to see God's modus operandi, do we check the unusual happenings as well, like those that I have quoted above?

God's ways are far beyond our ways, but that's really not the point. What I pointed out about the dreams presented is that they violate several principles of God's dealings with us. And, what's more, they include the very kind of things/temptations that Satan is known for. God has given us sufficient evidence in Scripture of His way of working that we need not be deceived any more than Eve needed to be deceived.

[inga]

First of all, I want to thank Barbara for sharing these dreams of the woman who phoned her. They are, indeed, relevant.

However, as you folks have no doubt noted, I don't think they're "relevant" because they are necessarily from God. I think they give us a glimpse that we are dealing not with earthly powers, but with spiritual "principalities and powers."

just cause folks believe dreams and visions can occur don't make those folks pentecostal.....

The problem is not so much believing in dreams and visions, but believing unconditionally that dreams are from God -- especially if they seem to predict what we want to see happen.

God gave us brains and discernment for a reason. The problem with charismatic phenomena is that they bypass our reasoning powers. And the experiences are enticing ... as was that original tree in a garden ...

and there are plenty of cows needing to be barbequed.... i just think you are wrong in this case..... and time will tell as far as the dream shared is concerned.....

Are you serious, Clay?? Are you saying that if things happen more or less as the dreams predicted, that that proves that the dreams were from God?

The prediction of the witch of Endor to Saul came true. Does that prove that God spoke through the witch?

Surely we need to have a better basis for judging dreams and visions whether or not they come true.

I analyzed the dreams to indicate why I do not believe that they're the kind of dreams that God uses. Perhaps I'm wrong in my analysis. If so, please show me my error. (The dreams coming true proves nothing one way or another. Neither does the dreams not coming true. After all, we could argue that they were "conditional prophecies" from God.)

I don't know whether it's good for Linda to be reinstated at 3ABN. I don't know whether it's even good for 3ABN to continue. I do know that God knows, and I do know that He does not do anything to encourage pride and self-focus. Being in the public eye in a high position is a very dangerous place, spiritually. Few people can handle it. Maybe Linda can, after what she went through.

On the other hand, perhaps a network without "stars" -- like HopeTV -- may be better for all concerned. The trouble is that people want stars! They want human heroes. That was part of the success formula of 3ABN...

[PrincessDrRe]

[Clay]

First of all, I want to thank Barbara for sharing these dreams of the woman who phoned her. They are, indeed, relevant.

However, as you folks have no doubt noted, I don't think they're "relevant" because they are necessarily from God. I think they give us a glimpse that we are dealing not with earthly powers, but with spiritual "principalities and powers."

The problem is not so much believing in dreams and visions, but believing unconditionally that dreams are from God -- especially if they seem to predict what we want to see happen.

God gave us brains and discernment for a reason. The problem with charismatic phenomena is that they bypass our reasoning powers. And the experiences are enticing ... as was that original tree in a garden ...
Are you serious, Clay?? Are you saying that if things happen more or less as the dreams predicted, that that proves that the dreams were from God?

The prediction of the witch of Endor to Saul came true. Does that prove that God spoke through the witch?

Surely we need to have a better basis for judging dreams and visions whether or not they come true.

I analyzed the dreams to indicate why I do not believe that they're the kind of dreams that God uses. Perhaps I'm wrong in my analysis. If so, please show me my error. (The dreams coming true proves nothing one way or another. Neither does the dreams not coming true. After all, we could argue that they were "conditional prophecies" from God.)

I don't know whether it's good for Linda to be reinstated at 3ABN. I don't know whether it's even good for 3ABN to continue. I do know that God knows, and I do know that He does not do anything to encourage pride and self-focus. Being in the public eye in a high position is a very dangerous place, spiritually. Few people can handle it. Maybe Linda can, after what she went through.

On the other hand, perhaps a network without "stars" -- like HopeTV -- may be better for all concerned. The trouble is that people want stars! They want human heroes. That was part of the success formula of 3ABN...

I have not said that just because dreams come true they are from God, however you raise a serious point, that being is satan able to give us a "dream?" That would be a generic "us" as in christians.... the example of Saul does not count because Saul sought out a medium to speak to the dead... so that is clearly apples and oranges....

We are reluctant to admit that this issue scares us... yet at the same time we talk about the Holy Spirit living within us, speaking to us and guiding us... interesting conundrum.....

As for what God will tell us and if its consistent... God told Abraham to offer Isaac as a sacrifice, however we all know that God does not condone killing.... so then how could he ask Abraham to do something he does not condone... seems inconsistent....

As I said, time will tell.... it always does....

[justme]

I have not said that just because dreams come true they are from God, however you raise a serious point, that being is satan able to give us a "dream?" That would be a generic "us" as in christians.... the example of Saul does not count because Saul sought out a medium to speak to the dead... so that is clearly apples and oranges....

We are reluctant to admit that this issue scares us... yet at the same time we talk about the Holy Spirit living within us, speaking to us and guiding us... interesting conundrum.....

As for what God will tell us and if its consistent... God told Abraham to offer Isaac as a sacrifice, however we all know that God does not condone killing.... so then how could he ask Abraham to do something he does not condone... seems inconsistent....

As I said, time will tell.... it always does....

Remember that Abraham was quite familiar with the voice of God. He knew it was God speaking to Him. Tho' there had been no precedent for Abraham to draw upon to guide his own experience, he knew the voice of the God with Whom he held constant conversations. As Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice". That was the same God with Whom Abraham spoke long before, yes it was the One Whom we later get to know as Jesus. We CAN Know His Voice, If we learn first what HE has written and then how He wants to apply it to each life. The Bible is written for EVERYONE. Personal applications are applied individually, but they do not contradict what is written.

[Clay]

Remember that Abraham was quite familiar with the voice of God. He knew it was God speaking to Him. Tho' there had been no precedent for Abraham to draw upon to guide his own experience, he knew the voice of the God with Whom he held constant conversations. As Jesus said, "My sheep know my voice". That was the same God with Whom Abraham spoke long before, yes it was the One Whom we later get to know as Jesus. We CAN Know His Voice, If we learn first what HE has written and then how He wants to apply it to each life. The Bible is written for EVERYONE. Personal applications are applied individually, but they do not contradict what is written.

Abraham was told something that contradicted the principles of God..... but because Abraham knew God's voice it was not a problem.... the bible was written for everyone? that be another thread....

[PrincessDrRe]

When in a "court trial" one would say that "coincidences" add up to equal evidence and a "valid" verdict.

IF the dream has too many "coincidences" and they began to add up....

One can see that the dream was also valid.

Is that wrong reasoning? I think it's valid....

[Clay]

When in a "court trial" one would say that "coincidences" add up to equal evidence and a "valid" verdict.

IF the dream has too many "coincidences" and they began to add up....

One can see that the dream was also valid.

Is that wrong reasoning? I think it's valid....

folks who are afraid of dreams will say, where did that dream come from, God or the devil..... and like I said, is it possible for the devil to give christians dreams? If so, let's pack it up now cause we are done for.... hellbound even....

[Jvat]

Just me, hold it there, as we say over here. Just a minute. Run that by me one more time. PDR is questioning how comes God asked Abraham to do something that was contrary to his law, the ten commandments? And you tell us that Abraham knew God's voice that was why he was able to do something that seemed forbidden by God in His ten commandments? So what about others who know God's voice today and are willing to let HIM lead in what SEEMS (may not really be so) contradictory to HIS Word?

Just clarify for me, please. I am a little lost here.

[Clay]

Just me, hold it there, as we say over here. Just a minute. Run that by me one more time. PDR is questioning how comes God asked Abraham to do something that was contrary to his law, the ten commandments? And you tell us that Abraham knew God's voice that was why he was able to do something that seemed forbidden by God in His ten commandments? So what about others who know God's voice today and are willing to let HIM lead in what SEEMS (may not really be so) contradictory to HIS Word?

Just clarify for me, please. I am a little lost here.

okay Jvat remember though, the 10 commandments had not been given when Abraham and God were dialoguing... and "His word" is always open to interpretation....

[Jvat]

Maybe we should not hijack the thread to discuss the validity of dreams and visions but instead perhaps a new thread should be started probably in the Adventist Theology section to discuss this interesting topic at length?

Inga, two points. Firstly, remember that at the time around when the Bible was first being understood, people thought that the world was flat, right? Saying that the sun stood still was not just a metaphorical statement, you know? The people at the time really believed that the sun moved, which is different from us today. Yet God through HIS Holy Spirit did not choose to correct the wrong thinking at the time. And of course people would have used the Bible then for proof of their belief.

Is there not too much store being put in the words "Rising like a Phoenix?" Isn't perhaps that not just another way of God telling Linda that she would be vindicated and like Job would be restored a hundred fold? Who says that we really understand what the lady's dream meant? Even now we still have difficulty understanding all of Daniel's prophecies such as the 1135 days prophecy. There is not consensus on what that prophecy in Daniel really means. Correct me if I am wrong. Maybe as the unraveling of the dream will be revealed, we would better be able to understand what the dream really means for Linda.

[watchbird]

folks who are afraid of dreams will say, where did that dream come from, God or the devil..... and like I said, is it possible for the devil to give christians dreams? If so, let's pack it up now cause we are done for.... hellbound even....

What is the mechanism for giving someone a "dream"? Is it possible for Satan to tempt Christians? Is it possible for him to put thoughts in their minds that they did not originate themselves? (Something like having a radio receiver in your head and Satan can "broadcast" to it?

If Satan has any ability to communicate thoughts to us, then I don't see any reason why he could not also beam some of those things to us while we are sleeping. And I see no reason why him being able to do that would make anyone "hellbound".

[Clay]

What is the mechanism for giving someone a "dream"? Is it possible for Satan to tempt Christians? Is it possible for him to put thoughts in their minds that they did not originate themselves? (Something like having a radio receiver in your head and Satan can "broadcast" to it?

If Satan has any ability to communicate thoughts to us, then I don't see any reason why he could not also beam some of those things to us while we are sleeping. And I see no reason why him being able to do that would make anyone "hellbound".

those are the 64k dollar questions..... does he really put thoughts in our heads? Or does he provide a diversion that grabs our attention? and then the thoughts evolve from there? I don't know.... I would like to think that our brains are off-limits to him but he can try to attract our attention all he wants...

I say hellbound because I see patients all the time who cannot get rest from the voices they hear inside their heads, or the paranoid thoughts that are always present.... they are most miserable.....

This post has been edited by Clay: Aug 17 2006, 07:36 PM