The Dreams & Visions Concerning 3abn, A short letter from Barbara Kerr Options

[Green Cochoa]

the examples you gave were not "The Bible." In fact at the time that they were written there was no bible, and no plans to compile one, additionally we believe via faith that those things that have been attributed to God were recorded accurately....

When Paul wrote those words he was referring to the OT, since there was no NT. Likewise when Jesus said what he said, the assumption is that he was referring to scripture, i.e. the OT.

I submit to you that Jesus said he is the Word, and he being God also came (to earth) through God, so it well could be that he was referring to himself.... That man is sustained only through Christ himself....

This is why I used the example of the creation of a baby. Just as the genetics and accompanying spark of life have been passed down through many generations, so has God's Word passed down through those same generations. God's Word, beginning with His famous "Breath of Life", has never been lost nor erased from the memories of all of mankind since the creation. While it is true that the Bible is just one form of this Word, it certainly is one of the most concrete forms in modern times. In ancient times, you must remember that our ancestors were superior to us in health, memory, and vitality, living nearly an entire millennium. If we were to assume that God, having spoken to Adam, spoke no more to mankind until the Decalogue was given (which isn't true, of course), we could still trace a possible path of telling/retelling God's Word to Adam's descendants of only SIX steps. (Only three steps reaches Abraham, well over 2000 years after creation.)

When Paul wrote those words, he was referring to God's Word, not the OT. As I understand the statement, the definition of "scripture" is any document inspired by God. "For prophecy came not in old time by the will of man, but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." Prophecy here is a synonym to scripture, but is not limited to written work. In other words, when God has inspired it, it's special.

You speak of man being sustained only through Christ Himself, but you seem to be implying that it is NOT through the Bible. Yet the Bible says, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life." Jn. 6:63 Evidently, then, those words, recorded by the disciples for posterity, will sustain us.

[Clay]

God's word is not limited to "the bible" is my point.....

[Green Cochoa]

I certainly agree that God's word is not limited to the Holy Bible, nor even to written work, nor even to words themselves. So, perhaps this has just been a discussion of two sides to the same coin!


Now, here's a separate realization that took some time to dawn on my mind, but...consider these facts if you will:

1. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God."
2. Moses, David, Isaiah, Matthew, John, Paul, etc. etc. wrote scripture under God's inspiration.
3. The "spirit of prophecy" referred to in Revelation, refers to God's spirit who inspires these prophets.
4. "For prophecy came not in old time by the will of man, but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
5. Now...are you ready for some more scripture?
6. Each of these "prophets" were sinners like us--but followed God and spoke His truth under inspiration.
7. Ellen White wrote under inspiration, occasionally with the wording dictated by an angel, similar to John on Patmos.

You make the call.

God bless!

[Clay]

I certainly agree that God's word is not limited to the Holy Bible, nor even to written work, nor even to words themselves. So, perhaps this has just been a discussion of two sides to the same coin!
Now, here's a separate realization that took some time to dawn on my mind, but...consider these facts if you will:

1. "All scripture is given by inspiration of God."
2. Moses, David, Isaiah, Matthew, John, Paul, etc. etc. wrote scripture under God's inspiration.
3. The "spirit of prophecy" referred to in Revelation, refers to God's spirit who inspires these prophets.
4. "For prophecy came not in old time by the will of man, but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost."
5. Now...are you ready for some more scripture?
6. Each of these "prophets" were sinners like us--but followed God and spoke His truth under inspiration.
7. Ellen White wrote under inspiration, occasionally with the wording dictated by an angel, similar to John on Patmos.

You make the call.

God bless!

no call to make...

[Daffodil]

I hear what you are saying but I still disagree... there are committed christians who know when God speaks to them and they are in tune with his voice... some have to be because they cannot read the bible.... so they must have a relationship with God..... the same way a child recognizes the voice of their parents is the same type of intimate relationship God wants with us... Is that possible? Yes.... Jesus said my sheep KNOW my voice... and if it is possible for humans to develop an intimate relationship with each other without reading a book about the person, what prevents us from doing the same thing with our Heavenly Father? I understand what you are saying about the bible, but my confidence is not in the bible, it is in God..... scholars know the bible, debate the bible and still have no relationship with God, so it has to be more than just "studying" the bible..... I think we have to really and I mean really trust ourselves to him... and allow him to communicate with us intimately.... it is my opinion that many are afraid of this, just as Israel was at Sinai....

To make the statement "my confidence is not in the Bible, it is in God" is a pretty shaky ground to stand on. The Lord wants us to fortify our minds with his word so that we will not be decieved by the devil. Your statement sounds an awful lot like you run on feelings and thats the last thing we want to do. Of course we are suppose to depend 100% on God, that's not in question, but, to not have confidence in scripture is another thing. Sure, I know some words aren't translated well, but, thats where comparing scripture with scripture comes in, going from verse to verse.

Sincerely,
Dawn

[Clay]

To make the statement "my confidence is not in the Bible, it is in God" is a pretty shaky ground to stand on. The Lord wants us to fortify our minds with his word so that we will not be decieved by the devil. Your statement sounds an awful lot like you run on feelings and thats the last thing we want to do. Of course we are suppose to depend 100% on God, that's not in question, but, to not have confidence in scripture is another thing. Sure, I know some words aren't translated well, but, thats where comparing scripture with scripture comes in, going from verse to verse.

Sincerely,
Dawn

and I have not asked you to stand where I stand.... you follow God as He leads you and I will do the same.... As Jesus told Peter when Peter asked what John would be doing....John 21:22 Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me."

So my sister, you follow him.... and let him deal with me.....

[Daffodil]

and I have not asked you to stand where I stand.... you follow God as He leads you and I will do the same.... As Jesus told Peter when Peter asked what John would be doing....John 21:22 Jesus said to him, "If I will that he remain till I come, what is that to you? You follow Me."

So my sister, you follow him.... and let him deal with me.....

I am sorry Clay, I did not mean to offend, just what you wrote struck me as alarming! Just giving my humble opinion.

Sincerely,
Dawn

[Clay]

I am sorry Clay, I did not mean to offend, just what you wrote struck me as alarming! Just giving my humble opinion.

Sincerely,
Dawn

I appreciate your concern Dawn, and I am not offended... but remember my sister, we each have to follow as he leads... and trust me, he will lead if we allow....

[watchbird]

I appreciate your concern Dawn, and I am not offended... but remember my sister, we each have to follow as he leads... and trust me, he will lead if we allow....

The problem you are not recognizing, Clay, is that if there is no agreed upon objective authority by which to test Who we are following, then it forever remains a question of "he said/she said" or "my opinion vs your opinion". And the sad facts are that the woods are full of a variety of people who follow what they claim is God's individual leading.... some of which are plainly following only their own imaginations or gods of their own creation or ... even more dangerous ... "satan as an angel of light".

By their fruits ye shall know them requires that we have a consensual agreement as to what kind of "fruit" is indicative of what. You have no authority such that there is any reason for us to "trust" you when you assure us that "he will lead if we allow". Nor is God the ONLY god who is plenty willing to "lead if we allow".

[Clay]

The problem you are not recognizing, Clay, is that if there is no agreed upon objective authority by which to test Who we are following, then it forever remains a question of "he said/she said" or "my opinion vs your opinion". And the sad facts are that the woods are full of a variety of people who follow what they claim is God's individual leading.... some of which are plainly following only their own imaginations or gods of their own creation or ... even more dangerous ... "satan as an angel of light".

By their fruits ye shall know them requires that we have a consensual agreement as to what kind of "fruit" is indicative of what. You have no authority such that there is any reason for us to "trust" you when you assure us that "he will lead if we allow". Nor is God the ONLY god who is plenty willing to "lead if we allow".

that question is there even when there is an "objective" source... last time I looked, not all agree with concepts presented in the bible.... IN the U.S. over 38k different denominations supposedly following the same bible.... and let's not talk about the diversity of opinion within our own church.....

I am not asking anyone to follow me.... and if folks cannot discern his voice or the path he would have them be on.... ummm I don't know what to tell them.... as for the fruit thing.... are we to be fruit inspectors? I don't know... I suppose we are to be when it comes to following people, but Jesus tells us to follow him I thought....

[Lee]

Dawn is correct--we follow God through His Holy Word--the Bible.

[Johann]

that question is there even when there is an "objective" source... last time I looked, not all agree with concepts presented in the bible.... IN the U.S. over 38k different denominations supposedly following the same bible.... and let's not talk about the diversity of opinion within our own church.....

I am not asking anyone to follow me.... and if folks cannot discern his voice or the path he would have them be on.... ummm I don't know what to tell them.... as for the fruit thing.... are we to be fruit inspectors? I don't know... I suppose we are to be when it comes to following people, but Jesus tells us to follow him I thought....

You are stating that you are following your own convictions without forcing anyone else to follow exatly in your footsteps, but to follow Jesus?

[Clay]

You are stating that you are following your own convictions without forcing anyone else to follow exatly in your footsteps, but to follow Jesus?

yep....

Dawn is correct--we follow God through His Holy Word--the Bible.

nope....

[Richard Sherwin]

And after saying that you still defend Danny?

Dawn is correct--we follow God through His Holy Word--the Bible.

[Daffodil]

that question is there even when there is an "objective" source... last time I looked, not all agree with concepts presented in the bible.... IN the U.S. over 38k different denominations supposedly following the same bible.... and let's not talk about the diversity of opinion within our own church.....

I am not asking anyone to follow me.... and if folks cannot discern his voice or the path he would have them be on.... ummm I don't know what to tell them.... as for the fruit thing.... are we to be fruit inspectors? I don't know... I suppose we are to be when it comes to following people, but Jesus tells us to follow him I thought....

Clay,

Sure we are to be fruit inspectors, but, we are not to judge a persons soul. I agree that we are to follow Jesus. Jesus also tells us in His holy word to "study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."2Tim. 2:15

What about the verse in John 1:14 that states "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotton of the Father,) full of grace and truth."
Jesus is the Word, Jesus when He walked on earth quoted scriture, so obviously He had confidence in what He wrote.

"I am not asking anyone to follow me"

Of course you are not, but, people will read your words and I am sure like anybody you give counsel. My question would be how do you give counsel to someone if you hold no confidence in the inspired Word. As christians we either build people up for Christ or bring them down, we also wouldn't want to be a stumbling block for a weaker brother or sister.

Sincerely,
Dawn