Danny On 3abn 8/31/2006, comments made by danny about information online Options

[SoulEspresso]

I am going to differ with you just a bit on this one.... the issue is about a person's conversion first to Christ and then to the faith they claim. It has less to do with where a person has come from as do they believe what they say they do or are they "using the means available" to spread apostasy and corrupt what is in place. Sorry, but IMHO, this is more serious of an issue than anything else that has been presented (as a whole). If a person or people who do not share the belief system of the church are in authority (in general) the vision of the ministry is corrupt.

Let me be more specific: If a person is in leadership, in any capacity, it is more than reasonable to expect them to believe in the philosophy of the organization 100%--and the direction of the leadership. Jesus stated "a house divided against itself cannot stand"....it is a problem--a big problem.

I'm not sure we're so far apart. Like I said, I don't approve of what's going on. And if the Steensons have a leadership role in a church whose doctrines they don't support, well, they need to be outed.

If a person is in church leadership, but is "speaking in tongues" there is a big problem....this is not about music, or about a person who speaks in tongues and is Pentecostal. This is about whether you believe the message or not....if you do not, you are not fit to be a leader in that capacity. This is like me as a SDA Christian moving up into Catholic Church hierarchy....or me becoming the Director of an abortion clinic....or as a Black woman joining the Arian Nation.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, so if I am, I welcome the correction. Do you have to disbelieve in speaking in tongues to be an Adventist? Is that a doctrinal thing with us?

I know our evangelists have trampled all over charismatics in their attempt to win people to our church (they love the Acts 2 passage on tongues and do their best to ignore 1 Cor 14), but they seem to love to kick other denominations down to make ours look taller --as if biblical doctrine weren't enough.

Like I said, maybe I'm missing your point. Someone who doesn't believe the 28 beliefs of the Adventist church shouldn't be in a leadership role--agreed. If the Steensons don't believe, they shouldn't be in leadership roles at 3ABN even if 3ABN isn't organically connected to the Adventist church.

I was more arguing with the viewpoint of, "Charismatics as such are patent unbelievers and will corrupt the message by speaking in tongues and believing in dreams and visions. Clearly they're of the devil." Hmm ... maybe I'm

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Sep 19 2006, 10:45 AM

[Green Cochoa]

Having worked among people groups not of our faith, and having observed their relative lack of freedom to study the issues for themselves, and then to abide by the convictions of their own educated conscience, there is one thing I much appreciate about the Seventh-day Adventist church. It may not be unique to Adventists, but this trait may simply be more prevalent among us, than in most any other religious group--and that is, freedom of conviction.

I see some comments here which show decided conviction. I'm happy to have the privilege, both Biblically, and through the latitude granted by the church, to have a different conviction. That said, some of the "doctrinal" differences among even our own leaders may be surprising to some people, and I would say it might especially surprise those of other denominations who feel more pressure to accept their leaders' and/or traditional beliefs.

As an Adventist, I'm happy to believe and state openly, for example, that I have the gift of tongues. I can speak in tongues. Tongues, like any of the other spiritual gifts, is meant to be developed into usefulness for Christ's service. Those who have the give of healing must educate themselves and improve upon that gift as doctors or health professionals. Those who have the gift of teaching are teachers--but not without an education. So it is with tongues. I didn't learn to speak in multiple tongues overnight--rather it takes time to develop the gift.

I do not agree 100% with the traditional church doctrines, and, to be the more honest, I don't know anyone who does. We all have some differences, mostly minor. The big question, then, to my mind is whether or not those differences are of such a character as to have a corrupting influence on others, or to lead them into apostasy of some form or another. Some differences of beliefs/Biblical understanding among our leaders actually strengthen the church, just like the roof which would not be held up if all the pillars were in one place, but is quite stable when each pillar takes a different position. Well, that's my humble viewpoint on tongues and theology among the leadership.

[princessdi]

I knew I liked you name!!! Go on a preach!! Welcome to BSDA!!!

I'm not sure we're so far apart. Like I said, I don't approve of what's going on. And if the Steensons have a leadership role in a church whose doctrines they don't support, well, they need to be outed.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, so if I am, I welcome the correction. Do you have to disbelieve in speaking in tongues to be an Adventist? Is that a doctrinal thing with us?

I know our evangelists have trampled all over charismatics in their attempt to win people to our church (they love the Acts 2 passage on tongues and do their best to ignore 1 Cor 14), but they seem to love to kick other denominations down to make ours look taller --as if biblical doctrine weren't enough.
Like I said, maybe I'm missing your point. Someone who doesn't believe the 28 beliefs of the Adventist church shouldn't be in a leadership role--agreed. If the Steensons don't believe, they shouldn't be in leadership roles at 3ABN even if 3ABN isn't organically connected to the Adventist church.

I was more arguing with the viewpoint of, "Charismatics as such are patent unbelievers and will corrupt the message by speaking in tongues and believing in dreams and visions. Clearly they're of the devil." Hmm ... maybe I'm

[PeacefulBe]

This is a very interesting discussion! One phrase keeps playing in my mind, something about "presenting the undiluted truth".

If the claims against the pentacostal element seeking power are true, what will this mission statement become...presenting the semi-diluted truth?

Just rhetorically wondering...

[simplysaved]

We are not far apart at all...which is why I stated "differ just a bit"...I enjoy the ministry provided by Joel Osteen (love him), Pastor Donnie McClurkin (really love him--but I digress ) and accept whole heartedly their view points....and present beliefs. While there are many things in which we agree as Christians, there are other things in which we do not ( ex. Sunday vs. Sabbath) in order for me to be comfortable with them as my direct pastor (which to me is very different than listening to someone speak on occassion), one of us would have to embrace the faith of the other. I also listen to the Holy Spirit thrrough scripture and prayer to tell me when to turn it off...

I am sorry that evangelists you have heard have not been respectful to other faiths...which IMO is very different from calling out scriptural error. My brother is pentecostal so I am well-versed. I have had positive and negative experiences with those who are pentecostal, in particular those who claimed to be SDA but clearly there were other issues and agenda (which is not important here).

I am also not "traditional SDA Chrisitian" in my expression of worship....but I am in beliefs. Having a pastor that believed smoking is O.K. would be a problem for me or that living together was not a big deal....or that it is O.K. to gossip or lie and not address it.

I believe in dreams and visions (that is scpture), but what I know is that if God has a vision for me, I will not have to lie, cheat, or manipulate to get it. I also believe in prophets and EGW...but that if you are people will tell YOU....you do not have to advertise or charge a small fee. If you are it will come to pass. God also stated that people would rise up "false prophets and deceive many".

I'm not sure we're so far apart. Like I said, I don't approve of what's going on. And if the Steensons have a leadership role in a church whose doctrines they don't support, well, they need to be outed.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, so if I am, I welcome the correction. Do you have to disbelieve in speaking in tongues to be an Adventist? Is that a doctrinal thing with us? To publically speak in an "unknown language" no one else can understand in the middle of church as a sign of having the Holy Spirit, yes it is against the Bible according to 1 Cor 14--and against what we as Adventists believe.

I know our evangelists have trampled all over charismatics in their attempt to win people to our church (they love the Acts 2 passage on tongues and do their best to ignore 1 Cor 14), but they seem to love to kick other denominations down to make ours look taller --as if biblical doctrine weren't enough.

Like I said, maybe I'm missing your point. Someone who doesn't believe the 28 beliefs of the Adventist church shouldn't be in a leadership role--agreed. If the Steensons don't believe, they shouldn't be in leadership roles at 3ABN even if 3ABN isn't organically connected to the Adventist church.

I was more arguing with the viewpoint of, "Charismatics as such are patent unbelievers and will corrupt the message by speaking in tongues and believing in dreams and visions. Clearly they're of the devil." Hmm ... maybe I'm

[watchbird]

The issue of whether or not speaking in tongues is biblical should be addressed in the Adventist forum....

Let's get back on topic.

Since we are not really addressing this in isolation, but in regard to how it fits into the 3ABN environment, it seems to me that it is very much "on topic" for this forum. And as I think I mentioned in my other post, it is not the "speaking in tongues" that concerns me anywhere near so much as the accompanying belief system that is essentially cultish ... using "cult" in the sense of setting up a leader whom everyone follows unquestionably since he is also considered to have direct connections with God that the rest of us poor mortals do not have.

As I understand it, the "speaking in tongues" part of the charismatic movement has been seen in many different religious groups .... both Christian and non-Christian.... and seems to adapt quite well to whatever belief system that the practitioners have. So part of the answer for Christians seeking an understanding of whether it should be part of their practices has to do with the similarities that can be noted with non-Christian religions....and as such, you are probably right, it would belong in a theological forum.

But that isn't really the question here. The type of Pentecostalism at 3ABN, while it seems to have the most ties to the Assemblies of God Church, also has certain characteristics of what is sometimes called the "signs and wonders" movement..... where miracles and signs and thoughts and impressions are all seen to be the authoritative stamp of God's approval on an individual or on a practice.

This is, admittedly, very attractive to some Adventists, and some Adventists have even been lured over into what is sometimes called the "Third Wave of the Spirit".... which encampasses many of the current crop of faith healers and found its most extreme expression in some of the Vinyard churches and in some of the Assemblies of God churches. The last I knew, the AoG official church had separated from those extremes and I have not seen any signs of that invading 3abn. But the false doctrines of godlike powers and privileges that are held are defniitely beyond the pale of Adventism, IMO.

[Clay]

okay this topic can continue discussing the pentecostal or perceived pentecostal influence at 3ABN.... and the other comments dealing specifically with speaking in tongues has been moved to the Theology section........ found here

http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=11113

[justme]

In my conversations with Mollie and Hal in particular, I have been concerned at their lack of knowledge of the Bible and of the EGW writings, in which they would find tremendous insight and wisdom into how God leads His work on earth. Their misapplication of the principles of the Day of Pentecost is getting them into a state of self delusion. One in which their "feelings" or "emotions" are makin their decisions for them. Their lack of Biblical "knowledge" is hurting their performance. Rrelative to Biblical knowledge is the premise that acquaintance with, or memorization of scripture, is not the same as "knowledge". To "know" is to experience something. "Adam KNEW his wife Eve, ..". Adam "experienced" a working, living relationship with her. When scripture, the Bible, becomes a fully involved experience with us we have the KNOWLEDGE (the experience) of what it does in our lives. The more we read and study with the guidance of prayer and submission and humility, the more we KNOW of God.

In chemistry class we studied the atoms and their reactions and formulae. Then we went into the laboratory to "EXPERIMENT/EXPERIENCE" what was happening. Mere didactics are fodder for imaginations, but true KNOWLEDGE comes from the EXPERIENCE.

The repeated use of the word "anointed" simply does not make it so. When the anointing of the Holy Spirit comes upon people grounded in the Bible, they bear the "fruits of the Spirit", Gal. 4, Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, etc.

Can someone tell me where God anointed "things" in the Bible. The Apostles were anointed, yes, but where are there ever THINGS anointed? Objects, songs, ministeries, places, etc. The Ark was Holy. The ground under Moses was Holy. etc. But "THINGS"?

Am I missing something. When Mollie says 'This song is anointed..". or This "plan" or "Idea" is anointed... how does she do that!

Is this Charismatic preaching on 3ABN...?

Such fruits are not evident in Danny nor in his leadership.

Jesus said,
"My people perish for lack of knowledge."

[beartrap]

he repeated use of the word "anointed" simply does not make it so. When the anointing of the Holy Spirit comes upon people grounded in the Bible, they bear the "fruits of the Spirit", Gal. 4, Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, etc.

Can someone tell me where God anointed "things" in the Bible. The Apostles were anointed, yes, but where are there ever THINGS anointed? Objects, songs, ministeries, places, etc. The Ark was Holy. The ground under Moses was Holy. etc. But "THINGS"?

Am I missing something. When Mollie says 'This song is anointed..". or This "plan" or "Idea" is anointed... how does she do that!

Is this Charismatic preaching on 3ABN...?

Such fruits are not evident in Danny nor in his leadership.

Jesus said,
"My people perish for lack of knowledge."

What is evidence of God's annointing? I challenge anyone to name any one person who has reached as many people with SDA doctrine as Danny Shelton. Has the Seventh-day Adeventist Church itself reached as many people as Danny with its own doctrine in the last hundred and fifty years? No? Has the SDA Church grown by over 100% in the 20 years of 3ABN's existence? does all of this mean that the word of 3ABN/DannyShelton hold a true and unchallengable annointing? How important is the spreading of our SDA doctrine? Does the broadest dissemination of our SDA truths in the history of our denomination equal God's annointing? How can anyone argue that? If Adventist doctrine is the endtime truth, Then Danny Shelton can be nothing less than God's endtime messenger to the church and to the world. How could he be anything but God's annointed one?

This post has been edited by beartrap: Oct 3 2006, 08:25 PM

[AmeliaLD]

I must be dumb as a stump because I can't tell if you're truly backing DS or being sarcastic as all get out.

[fallible humanbe...]

What is evidence of God's annointing? I challenge anyone to name any one person who has reached as many people with SDA doctrine as Danny Shelton. Has the Seventh-day Adeventist Church itself reached as many people as Danny with its own doctrine in the last hundred and fifty years? No? Has the SDA Church grown by over 100% in the 20 years of 3ABN's existence? does all of this mean that the word of 3ABN/DannyShelton hold a true and unchallengable annointing? How important is the spreading of our SDA doctrine? Does the broadest dissemination of our SDA truths in the history of our denomination equal God's annointing? How can anyone argue that? If Adventist doctrine is the endtime truth, Then Danny Shelton can be nothing less than God's endtime messenger to the church and to the world. How could he be anything but God's annointed one?

What if we stopped focusing on this, "the annoited one" and answered your broader questions. Have the other people appearing on 3ABN done a good and commendable work for the Lord? Have the "chefs" and he preachers and the individuals giving testimony to the working of God in their lives reached the hearts of even one unreached individual?

The focus is always on the negative and never explores the positive. The assumptions seem to be that everyone involved in 3ABN is "wrong" or "deluded" or "complicit" in some effort to delude thousands. Is there a truth in the middle - I think there might be. Is there truth that has been hidden on both sides - I think that is a given. The fact remains that as long as the acrimonious nature of all sides continues there will be no healing for all of those involved. Until there is prayerful consideration and acceptance of God's leading and not a focus on trying to force His hand in "our direction" all of those involved will continue to experience pain and lose and abandonment and a distance from God.

Who cares if it is Danny! Who cares if it is Doug! Who cares if it is Linda! not God . . . He only wants to reach those not yet aware of His all consuming love! In the mean time His heart aches that we spend time in these endeavors.

- fhb

[justme]

What is evidence of God's annointing? I challenge anyone to name any one person who has reached as many people with SDA doctrine as Danny Shelton. Has the Seventh-day Adeventist Church itself reached as many people as Danny with its own doctrine in the last hundred and fifty years? No? Has the SDA Church grown by over 100% in the 20 years of 3ABN's existence? does all of this mean that the word of 3ABN/DannyShelton hold a true and unchallengable annointing? How important is the spreading of our SDA doctrine? Does the broadest dissemination of our SDA truths in the history of our denomination equal God's annointing? How can anyone argue that? If Adventist doctrine is the endtime truth, Then Danny Shelton can be nothing less than God's endtime messenger to the church and to the world. How could he be anything but God's annointed one?

That's a good question, actually each one is. Who has reached as many people with SDA doctrine as Danny Shelton? Let's see, there;s HMS Richards and The Voice of Prophecy", there's Bill Fagal and his ministery in New York, there's George Vandeman and "It Is Written", and "Amazing Facts" has been giving out the SDA Doctrine before most us were born.

If you listen to Danny Shelton, he doesn't even claim to reach "that many" people with SDA Doctrine. He says that 3ABN, the satellites, have the POTENTIAL" of reaching "millions". That is true. But how many of those millions are watching 3ABN and the SDA Doctrines? How many have satellite receivers? Many have tv's, but is iit broadcast to them?

How many is not the point? There eare other televangelists who reach far more viewers than 3ABN telling people about Jesus. SDA Doctrine means nothing until someone knows Jesus personally. For some 140 years we have been teaching prophecy which we know so well. But what does it mean if we don't "know" Jesus. Billy Graham teaches only Jesus, because only Jesus can save us. SDA Doctrine comes later if we still care about Jesus enough to learn more.

[sonshineonme]

In my conversations with Mollie and Hal in particular, I have been concerned at their lack of knowledge of the Bible and of the EGW writings, in which they would find tremendous insight and wisdom into how God leads His work on earth. Their misapplication of the principles of the Day of Pentecost is getting them into a state of self delusion. One in which their "feelings" or "emotions" are makin their decisions for them. Their lack of Biblical "knowledge" is hurting their performance. Rrelative to Biblical knowledge is the premise that acquaintance with, or memorization of scripture, is not the same as "knowledge". To "know" is to experience something. "Adam KNEW his wife Eve, ..". Adam "experienced" a working, living relationship with her. When scripture, the Bible, becomes a fully involved experience with us we have the KNOWLEDGE (the experience) of what it does in our lives. The more we read and study with the guidance of prayer and submission and humility, the more we KNOW of God.

In chemistry class we studied the atoms and their reactions and formulae. Then we went into the laboratory to "EXPERIMENT/EXPERIENCE" what was happening. Mere didactics are fodder for imaginations, but true KNOWLEDGE comes from the EXPERIENCE.

The repeated use of the word "anointed" simply does not make it so. When the anointing of the Holy Spirit comes upon people grounded in the Bible, they bear the "fruits of the Spirit", Gal. 4, Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, etc.

Can someone tell me where God anointed "things" in the Bible. The Apostles were anointed, yes, but where are there ever THINGS anointed? Objects, songs, ministeries, places, etc. The Ark was Holy. The ground under Moses was Holy. etc. But "THINGS"?

Am I missing something. When Mollie says 'This song is anointed..". or This "plan" or "Idea" is anointed... how does she do that!

Is this Charismatic preaching on 3ABN...?

Such fruits are not evident in Danny nor in his leadership.

Jesus said,
"My people perish for lack of knowledge."

....yes bear, maybe you should "finish" your comment? Is it REALLY about DS and 3abn, or is it something else....coincidence in fact and Danny can "claim" the glory of his mininstry? Or is it that in spite of DS, God has only used this tool to reach people? That it's the programs that have done the work via satelite, which can be put out there by anyone - or maybe that it draws and feeds a particular group of people and maybe that is what the SDA church has turned into? Tell us more...

[fallible humanbe...]

How many is not the point? There eare other televangelists who reach far more viewers than 3ABN telling people about Jesus. SDA Doctrine means nothing until someone knows Jesus personally.

Yes, yes, yes and amen a thousand times! Even He says this!!!!

- fhb

[Guest_Cheri4Grace_*]

What if we stopped focusing on this, "the annoited one" and answered your broader questions. Have the other people appearing on 3ABN done a good and commendable work for the Lord? Have the "chefs" and he preachers and the individuals giving testimony to the working of God in their lives reached the hearts of even one unreached individual?

The focus is always on the negative and never explores the positive. The assumptions seem to be that everyone involved in 3ABN is "wrong" or "deluded" or "complicit" in some effort to delude thousands. Is there a truth in the middle - I think there might be. Is there truth that has been hidden on both sides - I think that is a given. The fact remains that as long as the acrimonious nature of all sides continues there will be no healing for all of those involved. Until there is prayerful consideration and acceptance of God's leading and not a focus on trying to force His hand in "our direction" all of those involved will continue to experience pain and lose and abandonment and a distance from God.

Who cares if it is Danny! Who cares if it is Doug! Who cares if it is Linda! not God . . . He only wants to reach those not yet aware of His all consuming love! In the mean time His heart aches that we spend time in these endeavors.

- fhb

I am involved in a number of huge projects right now... i follow God around in awe most the time. The only time i am fearful is when i have to rely on the Body of Christ ... not all of it but as i read through these post i shake my head and long to be back on the streets where you know who your friends are...
i want to say thank you for you ending statement ... who cares... there is so much work to do and people are truly dying... we are the body of Christ... let's pray for healing for all parties.
as i wrote that i thought of Jonah ... he so didn't want the folks to heal... are we of the same spirit... i guess God will still work with us... how cool is God