Prejudice in the Adventist Church Options

[seeshell]

I try not to generalize when I make statements, but rather address what I have seen and experienced. I know for a fact that on the gulf coast of Florida, there are a generation of racist white kids being raised. And it is not isolated to that area. I know that not all white people are racist, however, it is more wide spread then many whites are willing to admit.

I apologize if you were offended, but my opinion is that if a statement doesn't apply to you, you shouldn't be offended by the statement. I am not saying that you are secretly racist, I am merely saying why would you be offended if you were not a "little white racist".

Please don't take any of my comments personally. I like to make bold comments to get people to think about stuff. Many people don't think about some of the crazy and wrong things that they do, so I try to "expose" as many things as possible when I see an opportunity.

Pastor J

I was offended and I accept your apology. In response I will offer my apologies for coming perilously close to unglued, and anything I have said that was out of line. I am willing to examine my feelings for residual racism, and I won't claim that I am free of it, but it does not necessarily follow that anyone who would be upset by such a comment is a secret racist, K? Shake?

You make out like all young caucasian children are being raised this way. I can assure you that they are not. Your words are inflammatory and rude.

Shell, the racism not blatant, but subtle. Like the reacism that exists today in our churches. Regional conference are a part of that racism, and now 50 years later, it is eing called cultural diversity, and pretending like it is all about "how" each group worships. It is also like the religious arrogance betweendenominations, it is a subtle part of our speech and expectations, we don't even realize that it is there until pointed out to us. Even then our first repsonse is defensive. This is one thing that I can truly say that if you have not experienced it, you will not get it, or detect it on it's many subtle levels. Just trust me on this one.

No, it didn't. I think GC is trying to understand and express some of the feelings of "the other side" and is getting beat over the head for his pains. You know what that will get you? Fewer white people who will take the pains. White people may not have a perfect understanding of "the black experience" (which I would say it is arrogant to relegate only to the black people of the US), how will they get a better understanding if they are not permitted to join in discussion on the issue?

GC might have gotten some answers has his every post not invalidated the experience of black people in the US. I am taking the time to answer you becuase I really believe you are truly trying to understand. BTW, it is not relegated to the US only, there have long been black Adventist on this site from other countries. They tell of their experiences also. GC and you would do well to try to understand why his comments illicit such a response, instead of justifying them. In short, he poured salt into an open wound with his words. His words maynot have angered you, but it would behove you to try to understand as much as possible why they anger us. I am sure you did not intended it, but your justification of GC's response also smacks of that same invalidatiion.
I would also respectfully submit that it also works the other way. I, as a white person, do not like to be held as an emotional hostage for the things other people who shared my skin colour did. I WASN'T THERE. I DIDN'T DO IT. I wish that I could have black friends without this being an issue.

You are not eing held hostage, and by talking about it we are not blaming all white people, individually, but the truth is as the ruling class, racism has been on of thier useful tools in maintianing their power. I know it makes you all feel uncomfortable to hear about the things whic continue to happen in 2006, but they are true nonetheless, and we will continue to speak out about and against them. The only thing I can say here is, "if the shoe fits wear it .......if it doesn't don't try to put it on". Just read and learn.
As far as reparations...that might be a good thing, but then wouldn't the black folks have to funnel it back as reparations to the Jews who were held in slavery in Egypt for 400 years?

No, salvery back then were the result of wars, countries warring and the losers ending up slaves. Everyone understood the consequences. That is quite different from riding up to the AFrican coast and hunting down the people and sailing them away form all they know, in deplorable conditions, I might add..

Di, I appreciate and respect your comments and I thank you for making them courteously. I know in my head that black people have scars from injustices in the past. Granted, I can't know in my heart how it is, I haven't been in that place. You certainly have the freedom to talk about the past all you want, and the present for that matter! But keeping those old wounds open for the salt when it hits seems to be unhelpful in the quest to move on and put an end to the division in our own church. Having read some of these things today, I see now that the division is certainly not just a white issue.

It does bother me when I feel apologetic for having white skin. Crumbs, I can't help it! I never had slaves of any colour and I don't want any now. So, I feel an injustice is being done to me when I have to feel like I have to make up for stuff that happened before I was born. I want to be friends without that false guilt (spoken or unspoken) being put on me. I realize you say that you (general) are not talking about all whites...but sometimes it comes through that way.

OK, maybe I am oversensitive.

Well, the Jews were invited to Egypt in the form of Jacob's family and then made slaves, so it wasn't really a war situation. But anyway...

[PrincessDrRe]

I for one don't want the "white folks" to leave BSDA. Perish the thought! After all - whether some believe it or not - we are all gonna be in the same heaven....

Now with that being said -

I can also understand TBO & PrincessDi....

Many times an "experience" is spoken about - and then "rationalized" away by "others" as being "too sensitive"..... the calling of anyone "Nigger" IMO is racist. EVEN WHEN WE SO-CALLED BLACK FOLKS DO IT!!! It's an ignorant word with racist connotations behind it.

I don't have a problem with white folks IN GENERAL - what I do have a problem with is white folks who discredit/play down" the experiences of Blacks/African-Americans within not only the SDA Church but within all religions/sectors/areas.

If you ain't "lived it" (with the closest thing being "Black/White" the documentary) then you truly cannot understand it. You can say you think you know how it feels; you can say that you have witnessed it - but to actually rationalize away an experience.....



Seeshell - FYI -
You cool wid me gurl. Once you made the comment about "takin' off the earrings..." you were an "adopted sista".....














That was a joke people.......

This post has been edited by PrincessDrRe: Jan 6 2007, 10:47 AM

[seeshell]

Seeshell - FYI -
You cool wid me gurl. Once you made the comment about "takin' off the earrings..." you were an "adopted sista".....

Thanks Re'. The earrings were off for a few minutes there, they was really off, but they back on now.

[Eddy]

Just reading this thread almost brings tears to my eyes. I tried to stay out of the conversation, but I can't anymore. As many of you know, my mother is white and my father is black. Being mixed has for the most part made my life more difficult, yet much more insightful. I see things from both sides of the fence and racism is racism, whether your black or white or any other shade of the rainbow. Goodness, right now the country has a strong prejudice against middle eastern Americans and no one really seems to care about that one either. People use the terms "raghead," "sand-ni**er," "wetback," or other names like their justified. THEY'RE NOT! Racism is still very very active in the U.S, it's just not in it's usual form. Now is NOT the time for African Americans isolate ourselves. Be proud of your culture, culture is a beautiful and wonderful thing. But respect the culture of others. And respect the fact that there are others who respect and appreciate ours. We should enjoy the fact that people of other races want to be a part of our "black experience" forum. We should welcome them with open arms to our church and in our lives. We should be happy that so many people want to share and learn from our culture. Is there prejudice in the Adventist Church? YES! Just like someone before me mentioned, a church is made up of the people in the congregation. Along with so many different people come different flaws. There should be a significant difference among us though. As Christians we should be striving to be more like Christ who doesn't discriminate... ... at all. Praise God! We are all his children, and we should see that before we see anything else.

Yes, it was and still is a difficult road for African Americans. But I will not disclude others the way they have discluded me. I want no special treatment, apologies, or affirmative actions. All I want is to be judged by content of my character, not the color of my skin. As I will do the same for others. I believe it is not only the right thing to do, but the Christian thing to do.

[LeePaDee]

SEESHELL WROTE:
>No, it didn't. I think GC is trying to understand and express some of the feelings of "the other side" and is getting beat over the head for his pains.
------WHAT!!!! is that what you REALLY think??? GC was trying to understand??? By repeating those *typical* phrases: "some of my best friends.... and/or ... some of my relatives are Black". sigh.
I won't go over that again, AwesumT showed how that line of thinking is so pitiful.
Yes GC expressed his feelings, but do NOT tell me he was trying to understand!!
And so he *had* to attend a week of meetings/lectures, and THAT made him angry. Phooo-eeee.
And he had the NERVE to say "slavery was long time ago...."
as the Jewish people say: NEVER AGAIN.
Now here you come, SeeShell, justifying that mess .... THAT makes me as furious as you are about TBO's remarks!


> You know what that will get you? Fewer white people who will take the pains.
------If GC is an exampel of white people taking pains, then please please please let there be fewer white people who take pains.


> White people may not have a perfect understanding of "the black experience" (which I would say it is arrogant to relegate only to the black people of the US), how will they get a better understanding if they are not permitted to join in discussion on the issue?
------GC and everybody is permitted to understand WHY such remarks are so unacceptable. THAT is part of the "discussion on the issue".

[Eddy]

------WHAT!!!! is that what you REALLY think??? GC was trying to understand??? By repeating those *typical* phrases: "some of my best friends.... and/or ... some of my relatives are Black". sigh.
I won't go over that again, AwesumT showed how that line of thinking is so pitiful.

I know we just hate those typical phrases. But it does go both ways. My mom was a manager at Wal Mart for years in Huntsville, and she had problems whenever she promoted a white person over a black person, or when she'd catch a black person stealing and call them out. The first thing out of their mouth would be to call her a "racist." She hated that because she knew she wasn't, and no matter what she said would seem like one of those "typical" responses. So she'd just say "Tell that to my black husband and my two black kids." Sometimes we are over sensitive. Just like the white person who feels they are being blamed when they are reminded of the horror of slavery. It really goes both ways.

[seeshell]

SEESHELL WROTE:
>No, it didn't. I think GC is trying to understand and express some of the feelings of "the other side" and is getting beat over the head for his pains.
------WHAT!!!! is that what you REALLY think??? GC was trying to understand??? By repeating those *typical* phrases: "some of my best friends.... and/or ... some of my relatives are Black". sigh.
I won't go over that again, AwesumT showed how that line of thinking is so pitiful.
Yes GC expressed his feelings, but do NOT tell me he was trying to understand!!
And so he *had* to attend a week of meetings/lectures, and THAT made him angry. Phooo-eeee.
And he had the NERVE to say "slavery was long time ago...."
as the Jewish people say: NEVER AGAIN.
Now here you come, SeeShell, justifying that mess .... THAT makes me as furious as you are about TBO's remarks!
> You know what that will get you? Fewer white people who will take the pains.
------If GC is an exampel of white people taking pains, then please please please let there be fewer white people who take pains.
> White people may not have a perfect understanding of "the black experience" (which I would say it is arrogant to relegate only to the black people of the US), how will they get a better understanding if they are not permitted to join in discussion on the issue?
------GC and everybody is permitted to understand WHY such remarks are so unacceptable. THAT is part of the "discussion on the issue".

Tell it to the Hebrews, Lee. I will not be bullied into changing what I believe. As a white person, I am you-know-what if I do and you-know-what if I don't. If GC had not said anything about his black friends and relatives it would have been "how do you know, you don't know any black people!"

Now that we have made each other good and furious...Eddy had some good things to say and I think it would behoove us to read what she said again while we cool off. Before one of the brass comes along and starts the whuppings.

[princessdi]

Di, I appreciate and respect your comments and I thank you for making them courteously. I know in my head that black people have scars from injustices in the past. Granted, I can't know in my heart how it is, I haven't been in that place. You certainly have the freedom to talk about the past all you want, and the present for that matter! But keeping those old wounds open for the salt when it hits seems to be unhelpful in the quest to move on and put an end to the division in our own church. Having read some of these things today, I see now that the division is certainly not just a white issue.

Shell, the wounds are open, because they are still being inflicted. Each time a security guard follows you al over the store while you watch someone white steal nearly everything in sight, everytime we go for a job and are turned down, even everytime we have to think about that USA as a great as she is in trying to secure civil rights for others, still would not tolerate a black president, the wounds are inflicted. This is what we mean about having an understanding. You will never have to live with such limitations always in at least the back of your mind, but almost daily in the forefront. It colors every decision and move you make in life.
It does bother me when I feel apologetic for having white skin. Crumbs, I can't help it! I never had slaves of any colour and I don't want any now. So, I feel an injustice is being done to me when I have to feel like I have to make up for stuff that happened before I was born. I want to be friends without that false guilt (spoken or unspoken) being put on me. I realize you say that you (general) are not talking about all whites...but sometimes it comes through that way.

No reason you have to apologize, most of us also realize there is good and bad in every group. There were always whites who were on the side on anti slavery and civil rights. Like I said, "if the shoe fits........". However, if it doesn't fit you, still be willing to acknowledge the issue and be careful not to invalidate the experinces of others.




OK, maybe I am oversensitive.

Well, the Jews were invited to Egypt in the form of Jacob's family and then made slaves, so it wasn't really a war situation. But anyway...

For the record, also, You stil have mad props for knowing about taking your earrings off!

[seeshell]

Thanks for the props, Di. Um, now could you explain to me what that means?

I will try my best to not invalidate the feelings and experiences of others. I have been followed all over the store before, albeit in another country, and it was annoying. I feel kinda discriminated against myself sometimes, I can't apply for certain jobs etc...I understand it isn't quite the same thing because I am not a citizen and I could be if I chose. But still.

Could I make a plea for those of us white folks who just want to be normal? When it comes to all that racial blaming stuff (on all sides), some of us just want to say "I'm just trying to enjoy my life. Get away from me with all that mess!" Some of you will know that comes from Mr. Perry's Madea herself.

[princessdi]

Thanks for the props, Di. Um, now could you explain to me what that means?

Kudos for not only the use, but proper use of the phrase. IOW, You cool with both Princesses because you worked that phrase.


I will try my best to not invalidate the feelings and experiences of others. I have been followed all over the store before, albeit in another country, and it was annoying. I feel kinda discriminated against myself sometimes, I can't apply for certain jobs etc...I understand it isn't quite the same thing because I am not a citizen and I could be if I chose. But still.

Could I make a plea for those of us white folks who just want to be normal? When it comes to all that racial blaming stuff (on all sides), some of us just want to say "I'm just trying to enjoy my life. Get away from me with all that mess!" Some of you will know that comes from Mr. Perry's Madea herself.

Understood

[PrincessDrRe]

"Props" - from the word (not-word) "Propers" -
You cool Seeshell.....

Now as for the "following thang" - I love it when they follow me. I normally let them know that I know they are following me - by doing a good duck, dodge, and back-em-up. Surprise them from the rear....touch them on their shoulder.....

You should see their face!

Now - after that I normally point out to them that while they are following me - the (insert race/descriptors here) are stealing them blind on Isle 4.....

I normally get this look of burning hate..... I then either hand them the merchandise that I was going to purchase or I leave it next to them on a shelf - and leave the store. I have also been known to call a manager.

A friend of mine one time requested a manager and counted out his paycheck of over $400. He then told him why his store would not make any money off of him that day. We then left.

Sorry - went into a rant.

BOT!

[Eddy]

"Props" - from the word (not-word) "Propers" -
You cool Seeshell.....

Now as for the "following thang" - I love it when they follow me. I normally let them know that I know they are following me - by doing a good duck, dodge, and back-em-up. Surprise them from the rear....touch them on their shoulder.....

You should see their face!

Girl you are too funny!

I DO get followed a lot... but I'm at the point where I can't tell if it's because I'm black, young, or a mom with a hands-on little boy. Whatever, it's funny to me because it's not discreet anymore. Comedians and TV shows everywhere put those people on blast, and while they stereotype us, they end up stereotyping themselves.

[TrulyBlessedOne]

Now is NOT the time for African Americans isolate ourselves. Be proud of your culture, culture is a beautiful and wonderful thing. But respect the culture of others. And respect the fact that there are others who respect and appreciate ours.

Eddy, you make some good points, however, I must make this comment. For far too long, blacks have had to take on the culture of others in order to simply survive or maintain position. I mentioned this fact the other morning at worship in the Seminary. For the last couple of weeks there have been an all black praise team. Each time there was one "black" song sung and then it was back to the traditional hymns or eurocentric chorus. This week there was an all white praise team and not one "black" song was sung. Why is that?

And within our wonderful church, if the pastors don't conform in Seminary, they will never get hired. And I am truly going to test that theory by not being the pastor that conforms. I wil do my course work the best I can, but I will not be relegated to following the "traditional" worship paradigms that are pushed by the mostly white leadership. And although I fully support the doctrine of the church, there is something seriously wrong with the application of that doctrine when they refuse to modify the method of spreading that doctrine to fit the target area.

That is why the church has staled in the U.S. and exploded in other areas. Our traditional methods do well in areas where there is a lack of education (e.g. 3rd world countries), but in areas where there are choices and critical thinkers, there is a poor response. I would suggest that there needs to be a shift in our thinking away from the eurocentric model and embrace a method that can better reach the Hip Hop generation.

This doesn't necessaily mean that you have to trade in your organ and piano for a DJ booth, but we've got to find a way to reach the lost that are captured by the Hip Hop culture and that is just about everyone under the age of 35. When Sears is selling 20" rims and grandmothers are rapping on commercials, you know that Hip Hop has taken over.

So back to the original idea, it is wonderful that others are starting to take notice of the "black experience", however, until we end the force feeding of traditional eurocentric liturgy, I will not be a happy camper. In an environment where people of color are the majority or close to half the population, what I see from the front should be more reflective of my experience and not just a week out of the year when there has been a month set aside by the Federal government.

That's My Two Lincolnstm

Pastor J

[TrulyBlessedOne]

Man! It got might quiet up in this piece.

[LeePaDee]

it can't stay hot/noisy all the time .... right?