Prejudice in the Adventist Church Options

[Eddy]

Eddy, you make some good points, however, I must make this comment. For far too long, blacks have had to take on the culture of others in order to simply survive or maintain position. I mentioned this fact the other morning at worship in the Seminary. For the last couple of weeks there have been an all black praise team. Each time there was one "black" song sung and then it was back to the traditional hymns or eurocentric chorus. This week there was an all white praise team and not one "black" song was sung. Why is that?

And within our wonderful church, if the pastors don't conform in Seminary, they will never get hired. And I am truly going to test that theory by not being the pastor that conforms. I wil do my course work the best I can, but I will not be relegated to following the "traditional" worship paradigms that are pushed by the mostly white leadership. And although I fully support the doctrine of the church, there is something seriously wrong with the application of that doctrine when they refuse to modify the method of spreading that doctrine to fit the target area.

That is why the church has staled in the U.S. and exploded in other areas. Our traditional methods do well in areas where there is a lack of education (e.g. 3rd world countries), but in areas where there are choices and critical thinkers, there is a poor response. I would suggest that there needs to be a shift in our thinking away from the eurocentric model and embrace a method that can better reach the Hip Hop generation.

This doesn't necessaily mean that you have to trade in your organ and piano for a DJ booth, but we've got to find a way to reach the lost that are captured by the Hip Hop culture and that is just about everyone under the age of 35. When Sears is selling 20" rims and grandmothers are rapping on commercials, you know that Hip Hop has taken over.

So back to the original idea, it is wonderful that others are starting to take notice of the "black experience", however, until we end the force feeding of traditional eurocentric liturgy, I will not be a happy camper. In an environment where people of color are the majority or close to half the population, what I see from the front should be more reflective of my experience and not just a week out of the year when there has been a month set aside by the Federal government.

That's My Two Lincolnstm

Pastor J

There is much that I agree with you on. There IS racism in the church and EVERYWHERE you go. And we, along with our culture, are not accepted by many. The answer is NOT to conform to whatever someone else wants us to do. We should be accepted for who we are. I'm sorry your church home is like that. I'm not a pastor or an elder, but that is why there are black churches, and white churches. The doctrine may be the same but the delivery is different because different cultures have different preferences. Hey, if blacks in the church don't feel like they are being allowed to praise God they way they want, then branch out into their own church. (I know it's not easy though) But if there are white people that enjoy our kind of praise and worship then, we should welcome them with open arms. They should be allowed into our "black expierence" and to discuss. They may not expierence life the same way we do, but if they want to understand, that's even better. If they want to share their point of view, maybe there is something there we can learn. Like I said before, sometimes we can be over sensitive. If you read my thread on equal opportunity you'll know that I feel the sting of racism just like anyone else and it hurts like a stab to the heart. But everyone isn't like that. To sum it up, I'm not saying we need to blend in with others. OH NO! I'm saying that we should respect the culture of others, and embrace those who want to learn more about ours.

As far as the whole Hip Hop thing goes... I am 23 years old and technically a part of the "hip-hop" generation. I used to sing, dance and be all into that kind of stuff, but when I dedicated my heart to God, my whole style changed. No I don't like the traditional monotone hymns. I like gospel (Fred Hammond, Yolanda Adams, Donnie McClurkin... ect. ) that when the music plays and the people sing it sounds like their heart is pouring out to God. You know, the kind of music that always hits home and brings tears to your eyes and your hands in the air. But that's just my personal preference. I know a lot of youth really like Kirk Franklin. He's got some good songs that hit home for other people and I think that bringing "hip-hop" to the church is okay within reason. It must be all about the praise. All about the worship. Anyway I am so That is for another thread.

[simplysaved]

OUCH!!!!

Pro 13:3 Whoever guards his mouth preserves his life; he who opens wide his lips comes to ruin.

[Denny]

Sure couldn't. When I speak of the "black experience", I am speaking of people of african heritage living within the borders of the United States of America. There are some who have migrated from the West Indies that share the experience as well. However the black experience is primarily in the U.S.

Pastor J

"I merely questioned your presence on this forum. I meant to expound on that, but I got off on another vein. My question stems from the fact that while this board welcomes all ethnicities (see board rules), its function (as I understand it) is to address the black experience within the SDA church. If you are not black, you cannot contribute to the discussion on this matter."

Unless I am misunderstanding your first quote as stated above I doubt this board was set up just to discuss the experience of Black people living in the USA who are Adventists - Calvin can clarify.
When you Google BlackSDA this is what it says - "Welcome and thank you for visiting BlackSDA.com, an online community for people of African descent and others interested in the Black Seventh-day Adventist ..."

This post has been edited by Denny: Oct 30 2006, 05:17 AM

[TrulyBlessedOne]

Point taken Denny. I understand that blacks outside the U.S. experience issues as well.

Pastor J

[Eddy]

Denny have you lived in the US? If so, maybe you could tell us some of the different ways blacks are treated over there vs, here... if there are any. I've traveled many different places, but Europe was not one of them.

[Denny]

Denny have you lived in the US? If so, maybe you could tell us some of the different ways blacks are treated over there vs, here... if there are any. I've traveled many different places, but Europe was not one of them.

Sorry Eddy I've never lived in the US only visited as a tourist.

[västergötland]

These two mp3 sermons cointain points on this issue, among many other good points that speak on other threads issues.

God's Neibourhood

Your Reasonable service

[HUGGINS130]

Eddy, you make some good points, however, I must make this comment. For far too long, blacks have had to take on the culture of others in order to simply survive or maintain position. I mentioned this fact the other morning at worship in the Seminary. For the last couple of weeks there have been an all black praise team. Each time there was one "black" song sung and then it was back to the traditional hymns or eurocentric chorus. This week there was an all white praise team and not one "black" song was sung. Why is that?

And within our wonderful church, if the pastors don't conform in Seminary, they will never get hired. And I am truly going to test that theory by not being the pastor that conforms. I wil do my course work the best I can, but I will not be relegated to following the "traditional" worship paradigms that are pushed by the mostly white leadership. And although I fully support the doctrine of the church, there is something seriously wrong with the application of that doctrine when they refuse to modify the method of spreading that doctrine to fit the target area.

That is why the church has staled in the U.S. and exploded in other areas. Our traditional methods do well in areas where there is a lack of education (e.g. 3rd world countries), but in areas where there are choices and critical thinkers, there is a poor response. I would suggest that there needs to be a shift in our thinking away from the eurocentric model and embrace a method that can better reach the Hip Hop generation.

This doesn't necessaily mean that you have to trade in your organ and piano for a DJ booth, but we've got to find a way to reach the lost that are captured by the Hip Hop culture and that is just about everyone under the age of 35. When Sears is selling 20" rims and grandmothers are rapping on commercials, you know that Hip Hop has taken over.

So back to the original idea, it is wonderful that others are starting to take notice of the "black experience", however, until we end the force feeding of traditional eurocentric liturgy, I will not be a happy camper. In an environment where people of color are the majority or close to half the population, what I see from the front should be more reflective of my experience and not just a week out of the year when there has been a month set aside by the Federal government.

That's My Two Lincolnstm

Pastor J

[LadyTenor]

powers-that-be nothin. if the individuals sitting in the pews wanted a difference then things would happen. but they don't.

'cause they're sheep. or they are so blasé that they don't really care.

That's cause those folks are what our Daddy Heathen calls SHEEPLE!!!!

Here's a situation I witnessed personally 3 years ago. A predominantly white congregation began to experience a change in membership as the area grew. More people of color started attending. Eventually all of the whites (except 2) left the church. The pastor also stopped attending the church, telling the congregation that he was having church at his home for all of the white members that had left. They met in his home for 2 1/2 years. The conference did nothing. He was still the pastor of that church, he still received the same salary. When questioned about it the conference said they couldn't find anyone to replace him. Shortly after making that statement, several conference officials were killed in a plane crash. Within a few weeks, the church received a new pastor.

Hmmmm.....wonder if this is the Georgia Cumberland Conference...if so, it does NOT surprise me ONE IOTA...

GreenC I cannot take away the feelings that you had, but look at it this way and wear our shoes....

A white person once asked 'Why is there not a white history month for the white people' the answer given was white history month takes place 365 days of the year and those lessons have been mandotary for 400 years or more. If you want a day to celebrate an important Native American, Japanese American, Hispanic American etc there is nothing stopping you from starting a campaign to get one started.

The Hispanics do have a month...it is September...but so many others don't...........

How dare you minimize the feelings of the majority of the members of this board. For far too long, we have been told to just let go over 400 years of injustice. If racism were no longer present, then it could be considered, but I know personally that it is still alive and well and being taught to a new generation of little racist white kids.

*****SNIPPED*****

whites CANNOT relate to the black experience. Regardless of how much research you do on the subject, until you live it, you CANNOT relate.

I admire those who "turn black" to experience some of the life, but unless you grew up being called nigger and jiggaboo; been chased through the woods by a band of rednecks; been turned down for a job or credit without them even looking at the applications; or had someone move to the other side of the street, sidewalk, or hallway when they see you coming, you CANNOT understand the black experience. Just because you grew up around blacks or have black friends, doesn't give you the black experience by osmisis.

I try not to generalize when I make statements, but rather address what I have seen and experienced. I know for a fact that on the gulf coast of Florida, there are a generation of racist white kids being raised. And it is not isolated to that area. I know that not all white people are racist, however, it is more wide spread then many whites are willing to admit.

Pastor J

I live in Florida, though not on the gulf coast, and some of those racist children Pastor J speaks of attend the school at which I teach...and I fear that one or two might be in one of my classes...as for the rest, I can imagine what they are being taught at home......wonder if some of their parents are annoyed that the school hired another Black teacher....there are only a handful of us there at present...

As for walking in a Black person's shoes, the only person to have remotely done that and lived to talk about it was John Howard Griffin...and even he admitted in his book that he didn't realize how badly Blacks had it and how badly many Whites treated them...he himself was snubbed and blacklisted for his "experiment" and his own people threatened to lynch him...so I for one don't really think any other White person truly knows...BMTJM....

Black people were not considered to be equal with white people. I'm talking about literally less than a whole person. What was it? 5/8 of a man or something like that? This ideology was passed down generation to generation.
*******SNIPPED************
6. Prejudice feelings have not gone away. My parents were college students during the civil rights movement. That is just one generation ago. Do you think a couple of laws on the books can erase racism? Of course it can't!!!!!!! Racism is a feeling, an ideology, a way of thinking.

7. It seems like it is always white people or some other race telling black people to get over racism when we are living with the effects of it everyday. Stop telling people who you do not identify with how to deal with a situation.

Jene'

Jene' is right...Blacks were not considered whole people....during any census taken during slavery, Blacks were considered 3/5 of a person. This was for the purposes of determining how many people lived in a congressional district to determine how many representatives a state was entitled to in the House of Representatives. This is known in American history as the Great Compromise. The Southerners refused to believe that Blacks were people but were content to count them as people so that they could get more representation in Congress to ensure slavery would continue to be legal. Even then, they didn't want them to be counted as people....so they were content with saying Blacks were 3/5 human....

It would be easier for Blacks to forget racism, if the effects of racism no longer existed. But even today, in 2006, we still have these effects. Here I thought I knew all about racism, having been born and raised in NY...but now that I live in FL, boy do I realize God saw fit for me not to have lived here years ago...the number of Confederate flags here probably outnumber the number of rednecks that live here, and just last week I was in a store in the mall where four white associates, one behind the other, "politely" asked me if I was "finding everything okay". Not only were these employees young enough to be students in my class, they were ignoring everyone in their age group who were in groups loitering through the store; people whom, in my opinion, are more likely to shoplift. I quickly looked around and realized that I was the only Black person in the store and understood immediately what was up. By the time the FOURTH employee asked me if I needed any assistance, I told her that her THREE OTHER CO-WORKERS already saw to it that I was fine and she ran off quickly, red in the face from realizing that I was on to her and her crew. Normally I don't purchase anything from these places when these things go on, but this time I did just to show them that I had money...and I made a big show of flashing my wallet when I opened it to get my debit card to show them all the plastic I had in my wallet so that they knew I had spending power.

I do know I won't be visiting that store again...

Not that this hasn't happened to me before, but it has been a while and I feel the need to point out to Green C and others who don't understand that the effects of slavery and racism live on TODAY, in 2006.......

One more example and I shall hush....

In Florida, for those of you who don't know, the state tests students in grades 3-10 in different subjects using the Florida Comprensive Assessment Test, known to all students as the dreaded FCAT. Two of the subjects tested are reading and writing, where I, the English teacher, come in.

In a meeting of my department at school a few weeks ago, where I was one of two black people in the department and present at this meeting, it was stated and backed by statistics that Blacks and Hispanics routinely score lower than Whites and that the failing rates on the FCAT are higher among these minorities. This is serious because passing the FCAT in reading is a graduation requirement.

One of the teachers, well intentioned, but ignorant nontheless, asked if these statistics are a result of the "broken English" Blacks and Hispanics speak and hear at home. AS IF THESE WHITE REDNECKS DO NOT HEAR BROKEN ENGLISH AT HOME EITHER!!!!!! In my opinion, "broken English", as they call it, is indicative of socioeconomic class and not ethnicity, but try telling that to the white folks. I was so angry I almost left the meeting but I didn't because I have not been working there long enough to be making waves. I know full well that by "broken English" they meant ebonics............but that is another thread for another day!

*Stepping off of the soapbox and packing it up*

Many times an "experience" is spoken about - and then "rationalized" away by "others" as being "too sensitive"..... the calling of anyone "Nigger" IMO is racist. EVEN WHEN WE SO-CALLED BLACK FOLKS DO IT!!! It's an ignorant word with racist connotations behind it.

And Black folks get all indignant when I tell them we have no business using that word!!!!!!!

Before one of the brass comes along and starts the whuppings.

Little heathen sister Seashell, if you are going to use the word, you gots to spell it correctly!!!! It's WHUPPIN' with no "G"!!!!!


Sorry, had to add my humor to this thread!!!!!

I DO get followed a lot... but I'm at the point where I can't tell if it's because I'm black, young, or a mom with a hands-on little boy. Whatever, it's funny to me because it's not discreet anymore. Comedians and TV shows everywhere put those people on blast, and while they stereotype us, they end up stereotyping themselves.

This was one of the main points in John Howard Griffin's book....

This post has been edited by LadyTenor: Dec 23 2006, 04:38 PM

[HUGGINS130]

That's cause those folks are what our Daddy Heathen calls SHEEPLE!!!!
Hmmmm.....wonder if this is the Georgia Cumberland Conference...if so, it does NOT surprise me ONE IOTA...
The Hispanics do have a month...it is September...but so many others don't...........
I live in Florida, though not on the gulf coast, and some of those racist children Pastor J speaks of attend the school at which I teach...and I fear that one or two might be in one of my classes...as for the rest, I can imagine what they are being taught at home......wonder if some of their parents are annoyed that the school hired another Black teacher....there are only a handful of us there at present...

As for walking in a Black person's shoes, the only person to have remotely done that and lived to talk about it was John Howard Griffin...and even he admitted in his book that he didn't realize how badly Blacks had it and how badly many Whites treated them...he himself was snubbed and blacklisted for his "experiment" and his own people threatened to lynch him...so I for one don't really think any other White person truly knows...BMTJM....
Jene' is right...Blacks were not considered whole people....during any census taken during slavery, Blacks were considered 3/5 of a person. This was for the purposes of determining how many people lived in a congressional district to determine how many representatives a state was entitled to in the House of Representatives. This is known in American history as the Great Compromise. The Southerners refused to believe that Blacks were people but were content to count them as people so that they could get more representation in Congress to ensure slavery would continue to be legal. Even then, they didn't want them to be counted as people....so they were content with saying Blacks were 3/5 human....

It would be easier for Blacks to forget racism, if the effects of racism no longer existed. But even today, in 2006, we still have these effects. Here I thought I knew all about racism, having been born and raised in NY...but now that I live in FL, boy do I realize God saw fit for me not to have lived here years ago...the number of Confederate flags here probably outnumber the number of rednecks that live here, and just last week I was in a store in the mall where four white associates, one behind the other, "politely" asked me if I was "finding everything okay". Not only were these employees young enough to be students in my class, they were ignoring everyone in their age group who were in groups loitering through the store; people whom, in my opinion, are more likely to shoplift. I quickly looked around and realized that I was the only Black person in the store and understood immediately what was up. By the time the FOURTH employee asked me if I needed any assistance, I told her that her THREE OTHER CO-WORKERS already saw to it that I was fine and she ran off quickly, red in the face from realizing that I was on to her and her crew. Normally I don't purchase anything from these places when these things go on, but this time I did just to show them that I had money...and I made a big show of flashing my wallet when I opened it to get my debit card to show them all the plastic I had in my wallet so that they knew I had spending power.

I do know I won't be visiting that store again...

Not that this hasn't happened to me before, but it has been a while and I feel the need to point out to Green C and others who don't understand that the effects of slavery and racism live on TODAY, in 2006.......

One more example and I shall hush....

In Florida, for those of you who don't know, the state tests students in grades 3-10 in different subjects using the Florida Comprensive Assessment Test, known to all students as the dreaded FCAT. Two of the subjects tested are reading and writing, where I, the English teacher, come in.

In a meeting of my department at school a few weeks ago, where I was one of two black people in the department and present at this meeting, it was stated and backed by statistics that Blacks and Hispanics routinely score lower than Whites and that the failing rates on the FCAT are higher among these minorities. This is serious because passing the FCAT in reading is a graduation requirement.

One of the teachers, well intentioned, but ignorant nontheless, asked if these statistics are a result of the "broken English" Blacks and Hispanics speak and hear at home. AS IF THESE WHITE REDNECKS DO NOT HEAR BROKEN ENGLISH AT HOME EITHER!!!!!! In my opinion, "broken English", as they call it, is indicative of socioeconomic class and not ethnicity, but try telling that to the white folks. I was so angry I almost left the meeting but I didn't because I have not been working there long enough to be making waves. I know full well that by "broken English" they meant ebonics............but that is another thread for another day!

*Stepping off of the soapbox and packing it up*
And Black folks get all indignant when I tell them we have no business using that word!!!!!!!
Little heathen sister Seashell, if you are going to use the word, you gots to spell it correctly!!!! It's WHUPPIN' with no "G"!!!!!
Sorry, had to add my humor to this thread!!!!!
This was one of the main points in John Howard Griffin's book....

interesting indeed!

[MsHoly1]

There is no such thing as 'black flight'. I have yet to see a black church anywhere of any denomination whose members ran off when white people started attending their church.

The fact remains that such avoidance is an exclusively caucasian phenomenon both in churches and in communities...

In His service,
Mr. J

You got that right!

[PrincessDrRe]

Went back, re-read over the thread and thought I'd add a bit....

there used to be a church called All Nations that had a nice mix, don't know what happened to them though...

All Nations SDA is still in existance in Berrien Springs. So far I have seen Caucasian, Black (African-American), African (from Africa), Samoan, Micronesian, Asian, and "mixed" Ethnicities at All-Nations....and....And....AND they "seem" to get along well....

And while this is going on we have Adventists who think eating vegelinks prepares them heaven - if it was not sad it would be laughable.

How did I miss this one!

Re, share some of your ...

I shall ...as I will now sit back my self....

[seeshell]

[color=#993399][font=Georgia][size=3]Little heathen sister Seashell, if you are going to use the word, you gots to spell it correctly!!!! It's WHUPPIN' with no "G"!!!!!
Sorry, had to add my humor to this thread!!!!!

I'se sorry, heathen big sister LT. You won't be commencin' no whuppin' now, I hope???

[HUGGINS130]

Went back, re-read over the thread and thought I'd add a bit....

All Nations SDA is still in existance in Berrien Springs. So far I have seen Caucasian, Black (African-American), African (from Africa), Samoan, Micronesian, Asian, and "mixed" Ethnicities at All-Nations....and....And....AND they "seem" to get along well....

How did I miss this one!


I shall ...as I will now sit back my self....

they have congregations like this in Metro Atlanta Area...they are not a regional conference church though...and they get along just fine...sho do

[LadyTenor]

All Nations SDA is still in existance in Berrien Springs. So far I have seen Caucasian, Black (African-American), African (from Africa), Samoan, Micronesian, Asian, and "mixed" Ethnicities at All-Nations....and....And....AND they "seem" to get along well....

When I was at AU, I went to All Nations for a funeral. A member of our choir lost her father. That church struck me as very welcoming.

I'se sorry, heathen big sister LT. You won't be commencin' no whuppin' now, I hope???

No whuppins'!!!!!