Prejudice in the Adventist Church Options

[awesumtenor]

He has gotten away with some amazing things in the white church, who has always been forgiving and kind toward him, such as his stating in a sermon that there will be more blacks than whites in heaven!

The majority of humanity is not and never has been caucasian... not even close... the best efforts of Cecil B Demille et al notwithstanding... if the majority of the human population is not white, it's not a stretch to say that the majority of the population of heaven will not be either...

I realize such might be hard to fathom in a world that places so much stock in and gives so much advantage to being white...

In His service,
Mr. J

I have observed white members attending predominately black churches and making themselves right at home.... however because of what the issue is, "white flight" I don't think you are ever going to see white members attend a predominately black church to the point that they become the majority and blacks the minority....

But that would be the case because of the pressure that other whites would put on them to not worship there...

In His service,
Mr. J

[Clay]

The majority of humanity is not and never has been caucasian... not even close... the best efforts of Cecil B Demille et al notwithstanding... if the majority of the human population is not white, it's not a stretch to say that the majority of the population of heaven will not be either...

I realize such might be hard to fathom in a world that places so much stock in and gives so much advantage to being white...

In His service,
Mr. J

so the statement should have been, there will be more people of color (i.e. black, hispanic, asian, african, east indian, native americans, etc) in heaven, as opposed to there will be more black people in heaven than white people?

the other question is would blacks, who were economically able, leave and form another church IF the membership of white members outnumbered the black members?

[Denny]

GreenC fortunately your present black pastor is not a representative for black pastors or black people.

[awesumtenor]

so the statement should have been, there will be more people of color (i.e. black, hispanic, asian, african, east indian, native americans, etc) in heaven, as opposed to there will be more black people in heaven than white people?

the other question is would blacks, who were economically able, leave and form another church IF the membership of white members outnumbered the black members?

Seeing we dont know what the actual statement was versus how the statement was perceived, we cant say that isn't what was said.

As for your second question, history says no, we wouldn't. Black denominations exist as a result of our being excluded by whites from participating with them... whether you are talking AME, CME, AME Zion, Adventist Regional Conferences, Black Baptists, etc... and even in the denominations where black parishioners have not been specifically excluded they have been marginalized to the point where organizations like the Union of Black Episcopalians had to be formed in order to combat the inherent inequities within that church for persons of color...

It has always been because without it we'd not be able to participate at all.. not because of any desire on the part of blacks to not worship with whites.

In His service,
Mr. J

[Clay]

Seeing we dont know what the actual statement was versus how the statement was perceived, we cant say that isn't what was said.

As for your second question, history says no, we wouldn't. Black denominations exist as a result of our being excluded by whites from participating with them... whether you are talking AME, CME, AME Zion, Adventist Regional Conferences, Black Baptists, etc... and even in the denominations where black parishioners have not been specifically excluded they have been marginalized to the point where organizations like the Union of Black Episcopalians had to be formed in order to combat the inherent inequities within that church for persons of color...

It has always been because without it we'd not be able to participate at all.. not because of any desire on the part of blacks to not worship with whites.

In His service,
Mr. J

so then its more often a plea on our part (blacks) let us be a part of you, and a response on their part( whites), naw, Imma take my ball, bat, and glove and worship somewhere else....

[awesumtenor]

so then its more often a plea on our part (blacks) let us be a part of you, and a response on their part( whites), naw, Imma take my ball, bat, and glove and worship somewhere else....

coming to a pew near you...

In His service,
Mr. J

[Clay]

you think we are generalizing? or do our statements reflect the rule vs the exception?

[Denny]

the prejudice is not an exception its the rule. the sooner the church stops pretending it is not happening as the norm the better. if they want a racially divided them make it official. we will take our $$$ and do our thing and they do theirs.
Then the world will know what is really going on......

This post has been edited by Denny: Oct 18 2006, 12:36 PM

[Green Cochoa]

Seeing we dont know what the actual statement was versus how the statement was perceived, we cant say that isn't what was said.

I don't remember the pastor ever using the term "people of color." I can tell you that he was not making reference to Asians or others either. I think many in the white church rather accepted his statement. Personally, I had a problem with his support for it, and I felt it was a careless remark to make coming from him to a white congregation. But I would not have a problem with getting to heaven and finding it to be true--except for the fact that that would simply mean folks like me may not have done enough to win souls of other races to Christ.

The majority of humanity is not and never has been caucasian... not even close...

My heart goes out to all those Asian nations for whom the world has done so little to tell them of Christ. I have walked through villages where in all likelihood I was the first white person they had ever seen. The people could not help staring. The sad part is, they had also not heard of God. They worshiped the spirits of their ancestors. I have heard first-hand accounts of the natives' seeing and hearing siren girls. In one dramatic story, the girl's older brother had been taken away by one, never to be seen again. Folks, this stuff is a reality over there. I don't have much sympathy these days for Americans, black or white. America has had plenty of opportunities to know God. But in Asia, it's different. I sure hope that Asians get well-represented in heaven, because they sure are beautiful people when you get to know them. However, sadly, I'm not sure that we have done our part to reach them.

[Clay]

Greenie said:

We just loved him anyway, in spite of many of his racial inferences during his speaking. smile.gif I never saw anyone really get upset about it--but that fact is rather surprising if you could have heard some of his statements. doh.gif He has never seemed too happy about the fact that we don't "Preach it brother!" "Amen!" "Praise the Lord!" etc. as his black church does when he's speaking. It's simply not our culture to do that. None of us believes that doing so is wrong, it's just not the way we respond. If he has just said something big, I'm contemplating it in my mind quietly--not just vocalizing.

Greenie, are you saying in a round about way that he is "okay" for a black pastor? Or that the church is uncomfortable with your pastors blackness? Or is it something else?

[Green Cochoa]

Greenie said:

Greenie, are you saying in a round about way that he is "okay" for a black pastor? Or that the church is uncomfortable with your pastors blackness? Or is it something else?

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't look at skin color much. Goes for white too. I don't respect cultures much, but there are some that I am more comfortable with than others. For our church, I don't think that color has been or will be any issue. I can say that the church is not uncomfortable with his blackness. Culture, courtesy, tactfulness...now those may be other issues. Would you think such a statement is tactful and courteous? But we are forgiving, too. I look on a man's character when I look for something to appreciate. To be honest, I have never been happier with any other church than I am with my home church. The warmth and acceptance in my church is exceptional. Not every church could say the same.

[Clay]

I can't speak for everyone, but I don't look at skin color much. Goes for white too. I don't respect cultures much, but there are some that I am more comfortable with than others. For our church, I don't think that color has been or will be any issue. I can say that the church is not uncomfortable with his blackness. Culture, courtesy, tactfulness...now those may be other issues. Would you think such a statement is tactful and courteous? But we are forgiving, too. I look on a man's character when I look for something to appreciate. To be honest, I have never been happier with any other church than I am with my home church. The warmth and acceptance in my church is exceptional. Not every church could say the same.

which statement is that? I think everyone looks at skin color.... I think insightful people don't shape their perception of a person based on just skin color.... long before you know a person's character, you see their physical appearance.....

Otherwise we could manipulate your statement and see that it wouldn't make much sense.... example.... I don't see a person's gender, I appreciate their character.... my point... we see color, gender, and other physical characteristics... we don't always hold it against a person though....

This post has been edited by Clay: Oct 18 2006, 12:56 PM

[seeshell]

why dont' you try it and see

Denny, I might do it if I could turn myself into 50 white families and move into a "black" church...just to see what would happen. Unfortunately, I am only one woman.

I understand...and that's fine... but understand that I am putting forth that which I have witnessed with my own eyes, not what I have heard from others.
Yes I have. While there are exceptions, black churches in general have no problem with worshipping with persons of another color or another culture... segregation in the Adventist church was forced upon black Adventists... from forced separation of mixed congregations to the development of regional conferences to avoid placing blacks in church hierarchy... none of it was either the suggestion or the desire of black Adventists; it was simply the hand we were dealt.
I know black churches that are uberconservative bastions of old school Adventism... no drums, no shouting... no gospel music; just hymns and anthems... no jewelry, no women in pants....etc... and where the worship style did not change...that were in the not too distant past churches with all white membership that have no white members now... and the churches their former white members attend now are far more liberal than the church they left...

In His service,
Mr. J

OK, that's what I'm looking for. If you have seen these sorts of things with your own eyes, that means something to me. Thanks.

I don't have much sympathy these days for Americans, black or white. America has had plenty of opportunities to know God.

Amen, brother. We here on this continent have had such immense opportunties and squandered so many of them.

[awesumtenor]

I don't remember the pastor ever using the term "people of color." I can tell you that he was not making reference to Asians or others either. I think many in the white church rather accepted his statement. Personally, I had a problem with his support for it, and I felt it was a careless remark to make coming from him to a white congregation. But I would not have a problem with getting to heaven and finding it to be true--except for the fact that that would simply mean folks like me may not have done enough to win souls of other races to Christ.

Isn't it more than a little presumptuous for you to assume that non-caucasian and non-christian are synonymous terms? Especially in light of the fact that the most underevangelized demographic that is shrinking the most rapidly are North American and European caucasians... both in the Adventist church and in Christianity at large...

My heart goes out to all those Asian nations for whom the world has done so little to tell them of Christ. I have walked through villages where in all likelihood I was the first white person they had ever seen. The people could not help staring. The sad part is, they had also not heard of God. They worshiped the spirits of their ancestors. I have heard first-hand accounts of the natives' But in Asia, it's different. I sure hope that Asians get well-represented in heaven, because th seeing and hearing siren girls. In one dramatic story, the girl's older brother had been taken away by one, never to be seen again. Folks, this stuff is a reality over there.

Which makes the "righteousness of the scribes and pharisees" that so many have grown comfortable with that much more egregious...

I don't have much sympathy these days for Americans, black or white. America has had plenty of opportunities to know God.

Oh that God never chooses to view you like you will view your brother...

In His service,
Mr. J

[princessdi]

Greenie, as as an aside, do you really believe that God is waiting on "organized" religion, in general, and in particular, the Advnetist chruch to reach all of these people? Do youreally believe He, God, has no other way to manifest Himself to His people?

My heart goes out to all those Asian nations for whom the world has done so little to tell them of Christ. I have walked through villages where in all likelihood I was the first white person they had ever seen. The people could not help staring. The sad part is, they had also not heard of God. They worshiped the spirits of their ancestors. I have heard first-hand accounts of the natives' seeing and hearing siren girls. In one dramatic story, the girl's older brother had been taken away by one, never to be seen again. Folks, this stuff is a reality over there.

You are assuming that everyone in the US has the same opportunities, period. Just like you walked through those remote Asian villages, you might want to take a tour of the US "urban" areas, or some of our own more "remote villages".

I don't have much sympathy these days for Americans, black or white. America has had plenty of opportunities to know God.