Somthing Interesting... Options

[PeacefulBe]

Several things are abundantly clear to those who have followed this saga as it has unfolded 1)
3ABN misappropriated funds solicited from thousands of trusting viewers 2) Linda was also responsible and is accountable as well.

IMO, even though Linda is the larger 'victim' in the Danny and Linda saga, Linda is also accountable, that being she was certainly aware monies sacrifically given were used for their personal advantage.

3ABN needs to completely clean house and begin with fresh, consecrated, christians at the helm.

I haven't followed this saga from the beginning, but in the short time I have been here on BSDA it has become very apparent to me that Linda, although certainly put through the wringer with her relationship crisis, is nonetheless culpable for the misdirection of donations. Even Sister has spoken to this when she reported that Linda told concerned folks that Danny should have what Danny wants (horses, etc).

[justme]

I haven't followed this saga from the beginning, but in the short time I have been here on BSDA it has become very apparent to me that Linda, although certainly put through the wringer with her relationship crisis, is nonetheless culpable for the misdirection of donations. Even Sister has spoken to this when she reported that Linda told concerned folks that Danny should have what Danny wants (horses, etc).

i would like to have been a "fly on the wall" when Linda said that. Context and voice tone and inflection mean as much or more than just the actual words.

Likely Linda meant that Danny could have horses if HE paid for the, Sure, why not. Maybe those horses would keep him from the other "horsing around".

Personal possessions of those who want to be in a ministry should be allowed as long as they are not paid for directly by the ministry, but from the earnings of the employee.

I do get your point, that you think Linda, having been a spouse and/or employee carries some responsibility (culpability). However, there are two more interesting points to consider. Danny went to the "Bores" for his financial wishes and desires and we know that he has a "Bores" that will never say "NO" to him. The other point is that Danny sign ever single check written from 3ABN. So who else, including Linda, would know where the moneys came from or went?

Another example of "culpability" might be the use of the jet plane. Any employee of 3ABN who travels on the plane cannot be expected to "culpable" for benefitting from it's use. i.e. A child who needs special medical attention and Danny offers to fly parent and child for treatment. Is that misues of the plane? Who's responsible for THAT expense?

I just don't have these answers so I welcome some inputto help me understand particularly how Linda is culpable for 3ABN funds misuse. ... by association with Danny?

If Linda had that much clout it would hev been used elsewhere, in new programming, such as "DRUG ABUSE PREVENTION" and "Marriage Enhancement". I know she wanted there programs very much!

She lived the theme song, ""Mending Broken People".

[husbandoftheyear]

Don't know how HOTY got brought into this conversation..... but I'll just say that there is a world of difference between using the salary paid by 3abn for work supposedly done for 3abn to pay bills with and build houses with, and buy whatever one wants to buy..... and paying other employees to do work on personal items from the coffers of 3abn.

If you notice, Watchbird, FHB brings me up quite a bit in his tantrums. From all of his insightful posts, there is no doubt in my mind that he's a lot closer to 3ABN than he wants us to believe. I'm sure he's admin trying to find out who I am since I'm one of few that admits to still being at the station.

[Fran]

I haven't followed this saga from the beginning, but in the short time I have been here on BSDA it has become very apparent to me that Linda, although certainly put through the wringer with her relationship crisis, is nonetheless culpable for the misdirection of donations. Even Sister has spoken to this when she reported that Linda told concerned folks that Danny should have what Danny wants (horses, etc).

Why is it so hard for people to read the IL vs. 3ABN Property Tax Lawsuit? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

http://www.revenue.state.il.us/legalinform...s/pt/pt04-1.pdf

It clearly states that Linda had nothing to do with the finances of 3ABN! Please read the results. Suggestions that Linda had anything to do with Finances at 3ABN would have to stop.

Every person that writes books; makes CD's; Makes movies ... will, and should, receive royalties. Notice that Danny never received Royalties? That is a bunch of hog wash! The publisher pays royalties when there are sales of their items for sale.

I would suggest that Danny is not declaring his royalties from 3ABN as Linda was. Why would Mr. Finance set his stuff up so as to appear he will not receive any royalties, but he sets his wife up to receive royalties? To me it is obvious from this fact, that Danny did not share his gravy train with his wife.

Everyone producing a book or CD SHOULD receive royalties! That is the correct procedure. The problem was that 3ABN produced the product. This whole mess is Danny and his liking the non-profit organization, but he runs everything as a Private Company! 3ABN has a split personality, and is causing a big mess.

Follow the money! If Danny's pockets get too heavy, his pants may just fall off and expose the truth about the heavy, deep pockets.

[fallible humanbe...]

Don't know how HOTY got brought into this conversation.....

Come on, is it really that hard to figure out. The line of conversation was about Danny, his income, what he did with it, where his money comes from, etc. Complaints about how donor funds were used. Danny gets a salary - correct? Of course. He used some of it to build his house. So of course the logic extends, HOTY who claims to still be employed at 3ABN is getting paid from the donors as well. Does he own a house or a car - if so were they purchased with donor money? Of course, without the donors he doesn't have a salary.

This post is to WB, but to toss this in, HOTY - admin at 3ABN . . . if only you knew how laugable that was and how far down the wrong path you are.

- fhb

[justme]

Why is it so hard for people to read the IL vs. 3ABN Property Tax Lawsuit? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ?

http://www.revenue.state.il.us/legalinform...s/pt/pt04-1.pdf

It clearly states that Linda had nothing to do with the finances of 3ABN! Please read the results. Suggestions that Linda had anything to do with Finances at 3ABN would have to stop.

Every person that writes books; makes CD's; Makes movies ... will, and should, receive royalties. Notice that Danny never received Royalties? That is a bunch of hog wash! The publisher pays royalties when there are sales of their items for sale.

I would suggest that Danny is not declaring his royalties from 3ABN as Linda was. Why would Mr. Finance set his stuff up so as to appear he will not receive any royalties, but he sets his wife up to receive royalties? To me it is obvious from this fact, that Danny did not share his gravy train with his wife.

Everyone producing a book or CD SHOULD receive royalties! That is the correct procedure. The problem was that 3ABN produced the product. This whole mess is Danny and his liking the non-profit organization, but he runs everything as a Private Company! 3ABN has a split personality, and is causing a big mess.

Follow the money! If Danny's pockets get too heavy, his pants may just fall off and expose the truth about the heavy, deep pockets.

Fran,
Please forgive me. Now that I know where to look for it, (I am very visually handicapped). I'll try to do better...

"A PRIVATE" company?!!! WOW!. Imagine begging for millions of dollars to support a private company. Tithes and all ..!

Do you suppose Danny shared "anytjing" with Linda?

When Melody brought her baby's to see "grandpa Danny" she sat out fdrony until Linda left the house before Melody took the kids into Danny's house. Sounds like Melody has control over Danny, Danny over Linda, etc ...

Linda has her CD's on her website, although DAnny s is singing on some of them. Wonder why!?

Sorry to be an annoyance here .. just have to ask dumb questions, I guess ..

[watchbird]

Come on, is it really that hard to figure out. The line of conversation was about Danny, his income, what he did with it, where his money comes from, etc. Complaints about how donor funds were used. Danny gets a salary - correct? Of course. He used some of it to build his house. So of course the logic extends, HOTY who claims to still be employed at 3ABN is getting paid from the donors as well. Does he own a house or a car - if so were they purchased with donor money? Of course, without the donors he doesn't have a salary.

This post is to WB, but to toss this in, HOTY - admin at 3ABN . . . if only you knew how laugable that was and how far down the wrong path you are.

- fhb

Would it maybe be helpful to compare HOTY's salary ... or any of the peon's salaries.... with the top dog's salaries? And would it maybe be helpful to compare not only the kind of house that hoty lives in with Danny's house? And does HOTY really own his house, or is he just allowed to live in a "company model"? And how about comparing the perks that each receives? And the services? Maid service? Lawn service? landscaping, heavy equipment, labor on barns, maintenance, etc? I suspect there are a lot of "value received" (or not received) that has little or nothing to do with stated salaries.

And btw ... just what is the salary range there? And who has the top salaries? And why? And why isn't Danny's one of the top ones? Does he maybe have other ways of filling his pockets other than from his salary check.

But I'm getting over into Fran's territory ... I'll turn the topic over to her. I can only ask questions in these areas. She can give answers. And good solidly researched ones also.

[fallible humanbe...]

Would it maybe be helpful to compare HOTY's salary ... or any of the peon's salaries.... with the top dog's salaries? And would it maybe be helpful to compare not only the kind of house that hoty lives in with Danny's house? And does HOTY really own his house, or is he just allowed to live in a "company model"? And how about comparing the perks that each receives? And the services? Maid service? Lawn service? landscaping, heavy equipment, labor on barns, maintenance, etc? I suspect there are a lot of "value received" (or not received) that has little or nothing to do with stated salaries.

And btw ... just what is the salary range there? And who has the top salaries? And why? And why isn't Danny's one of the top ones? Does he maybe have other ways of filling his pockets other than from his salary check.

All good questions - can they be answered with substantiated documentation?

However, I didn't even broach the issue of equity within the salary structure. I only commented on the line of discussion which was that Danny gets paid from donor money and people either do not like or are jealous of the way in which he has spent it. When it comes to salary the same is true of HOTY and was once true of Linda, PaperTigers, and all the other former employees. In that type of organization - donor money is what keeps paychecks going out.

- fhb

[Fran]

Come on, is it really that hard to figure out. The line of conversation was about Danny, his income, what he did with it, where his money comes from, etc. Complaints about how donor funds were used. Danny gets a salary - correct? Of course. He used some of it to build his house. - fhb

Please be more specific about " He used some of it to build his house."

Just HOW MUCH of HIS SALARY was spent on HIS house? Be careful here.

[sister]

All good questions - can they be answered with substantiated documentation?

However, I didn't even broach the issue of equity within the salary structure. I only commented on the line of discussion which was that Danny gets paid from donor money and people either do not like or are jealous of the way in which he has spent it. When it comes to salary the same is true of HOTY and was once true of Linda, PaperTigers, and all the other former employees. In that type of organization - donor money is what keeps paychecks going out.

- fhb

And in the organized church tithe is what keeps the paychecks going out. So, what is your point?

Why not broach the issue of inequality within the salary structure? Walt Thompson knows about the inequality in regards to salary structure and about workers who do not make a living wage and have to depend on Welfare to feed their children. His comment, "This is a ministry and workers should expect to earn a sacrificial salary." He completely ignores the Biblical principal that a workman is worthy of his hire. What about Moses Primo, Danny Shelton, John Lomacang and select others of the Shelton Gang: none of them are receiving sacrificial salaries or substandard medical care.

This is beginning to sound a bit like "Animal Farm" by George Orwell, "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." Some fly in luxurious private jets, others drive old beaters held together by rust and live in housing that would be torn down in other parts of the country. A strange organizational structure for a business that professes to be a "Christian ministry".

[simplysaved]

For clarification, please: Are you proposing or suggesting, on a more general level, that all "independent ministries" of SDA church have established guidelines under which to operate? Does the SDA church have ground in which to move outside of it's direct domain and prescibe a policy for all to follow, or are you only preposing this for 3ABN?

Well ... if we can tear ourselves away from the fascinating topic of diversions ....
I would amend this to "fresh, consecrated, Seventh-day Adventist Christians .... not only "at the helm", but as new owners, directors, managers. The members of the Adventist church bought this establishment .... and they deserve to have it returned to them ... in full ... with everything that is still salvageable given over to Adventist ownership. That does not necessarily mean Conference
ownership. I have no problem in principle with an independently owned supporting ministry of the Adventist church. But I think those owners should be from multi-generational Adventist heritage, that the counsels given to us about not being too quick to work new converts into positions of leadership should be strictly followed, and that ALL Pentecostal/Charismatic influences should be completely cleansed from the place. That includes everyone from Rick Odle to Shelly Quinn to Mollie Steensen to those who are not even presently claiming to be SDAs.

This new organization needs to have a completely new charter .... clear lines of accountability drawn up, and accountability in all directions .... to the official church, to the immediate workers at 3abn, to the church at large, and to the donor/supporters of the new entity. That means solid business contracts ... not mere fuzzy sloppy 'agreements of support' which puts no obligation on the future 3abn as an entity. That means theological contracts.... in which the trained scholars of the Adventist church have the deciding say over programming (as contrasted with the untrained laymen and non-sda persons who are currently making decisions as to what to show and what not to show)..... and I do not mean scholars from only one segment of Adventism .... I mean a group of scholars which include representatives from ATS type conservatives, as well as those who call themselves Progressives or Intellectuals... and the various permutations in between those. That means solid business fiscal practices and accountability .... realistic wage structures and expense accounts, careful use of donor monies, even a sense of when to say "it is enough, we can operate on what we have coming in regularly, give to other projects of your choice"... .... especially it means not encouraging Adventists to short their regular church contributions in favor of sending their monies to 3abn.

If all that cannot be done, then I think that we as Adventists are going to be much farther ahead the sooner we "cut our losses", sever ALL connections with 3ABN, and proclaim that fact far and wide all around the world by every communication means we have at out disposal .... including but not limited to all other TV nets, all media centers, all print publications, and all conference communiques.

Will we have a great grieving time over losing such an asset that has brought so much to so many? Of course we will. But we won't get through that time until the "great divorce" has taken place.... and until we get out of the "denial stage" that keeps thinking some miracle will take place so everything will be "fixed" so that what has happened won't have happened anymore without anybody having to do anything.... or have anything done to them.

Sorry. Time moves in one direction only .... that of cause and effect. And so long as we do not change the "cause" we are not going to get any different "effects" than what we have now! And the longer we wait, the more of the same kind of "effects" we will get. .... just from the mere momentum that has been established.

The magic phrase as far as diversion of funds is not "who did it" so much as it is "We will do all in our power to recover as many of the funds as possible" and redivert them back to the purpose for which they were originally given. That promise gave the conference organizations who used it instant credibility in the aftermath of the Davenport scandals. The 3abn scandals are even worse than those, but a promise like that would go a long way towards winning the hearts of former 3abn supporters to both the church and whatever new entity is formed to "receive" the assets accumulated by the various 3abn entities around the world.

But absolutely essential to the implementation of such a necessary plan is that the official church leaders get off their do-nothing duffs and "lower the boom". I have heard excuses of all kinds as to why they do not ... most of them some variation of "the laity wouldn't stand for it". I think the "laity" is ready now to move. And it would be to EVERYONE's advantage if church leadership would at least step up to the position of being cooperative team members, even if they have already lost the privilege of being leaders in this reclamation project.

[fallible humanbe...]

And in the organized church tithe is what keeps the paychecks going out. So, what is your point?

. . . "This is a ministry and workers should expect to earn a sacrificial salary." . . ignores the Biblical principal that a workman is worthy of his hire.

I worked in the SDA denominational system for almost sixteen years. We were often reminded by our superiors that the work we were doing was the mission work of God and our wages, while below "the going rate" of individuals doing the same work outside of the church, would all be recouped in the world to come. Remember the adage, "Lay not your treasure . . ."

This situation is not exclusive to the SDA church either I might add for balance. The work of the Lord is always seen as sacrifical in the earthy means area.

- fhb

This post has been edited by fallible humanbeing: Sep 15 2006, 01:37 PM

[sister]

I worked in the SDA denominational system for almost sixteen years. We were often reminded by our superiors that the work we were doing was the mission work of God and our wages, while below "the going rate" of individuals doing the same work outside of the church, would all be recouped in the world to come. Remember the adage, "Lay not your treasure . . ."

This situation is not exclusive to the SDA church either I might add for balance. The work of the Lord is always seen as sacrifical in the earthy means area.

- fhb

In a discussion of 3ABN salary, the question is not about receiving a wage "below the going rate", but of receiving a "living wage". I have yet to hear of anyone in SDA denominational system that had to rely on foodstamps to feed their children or a pastor living in substandard housing or a church official driving up to a speaking appointment or meeting in an automobile that was on it's last legs.

Equating the financial situation of the majority of 3ABN employees, with a SDA denominational employee is at the very best, ridiculous. An example: I know of a pastor who worked at 3ABN full-time in the pastoral department. The salary he earned at 3ABN was about one third of what he had earned as a pastor and that does not include the medical or other benefits he received previously.

Sorry, Fallible, but your explaination just isn't flying here.


This post has been edited by sister: Sep 15 2006, 02:01 PM

[watchbird]

For clarification, please: Are you proposing or suggesting, on a more general level, that all "independent ministries" of SDA church have established guidelines under which to operate? Does the SDA church have ground in which to move outside of it's direct domain and prescibe a policy for all to follow, or are you only preposing this for 3ABN?

I was addressing 3abn specifically.

As for other "independent ministries", I think that probably most of them already have some checks and balances in place, and a clearly delineated line of accountability .... both for moral and ethical issues as well as for financial ones.

If they don't, they should have. And I'm not suggesting that the church move outside it's direct domain and "prescribe a policy for all to follow", but I do think that it should restrict its recommendations to those which have appropriate "policies" in all of these areas.

It is one of the myths that have surrounded the 3abn affair that says the GC or any other Conference level cannot set guidelines as to who may and who may not have access to SDA pulpits.... and even to Adventist owned venues. In the Southern Union we are quite familiar with ministries which are not allowed such access, so we KNOW that the power and authority are already vested in the Conference structure.

There are several "umbrella organizations" which provide accountability channels for their member organizations. The ASI is one such organization .... and it has direct ties to both the GC and to its member ministries or businesses. Again ... in the matter of 3abn, it did not take the responsibility that it rightfully has, to put the brakes on 3abn when it started running as a one-man dog and pony show rather than as a legitimate ministry of the Adventist church.

There may be others who also need some curbing .... but I would expect the fault to lie more on the church leadership side, which stood by and did nothing but wring their hands .... at best ... than with the whole system of independent businesses and supporting ministries which make up the bulk of the ASI membership.

[fallible humanbe...]

. . . a pastor living in substandard housing or a church official driving up to a speaking appointment or meeting in an automobile that was on it's last legs.

Well on this we will just have to accept a stalemate. Yes, I have seen exactly the things you mention. A very dear and personal pastor friend of mine has driven up in exactly that type of automobile. His wife too, was driving an older model very used car. As well, a pastor I knew was living in a home designed for four and their family totaled seven living at home - because in the market they were located that is what their dollar could afford.

How many of these individuals of whom you speak had no idea what they were deciding to enter into? How many expect much more than they received?

- fhb