Questions For Joe Smith, for starters: "mansion" & "huge pool" Options

[Panama_Pete]

I would appreciate getting copies wherever possible of any correspondence making claims or denials of spiritual adultery being the basis for what happened.

I saved a copy of Kay Kuzma's e-mail.

Note for others: The date is September 19, 2004. This is a response from Kay Kuzma after it was pointed out to Kay that her original recommendation of a book by Charles. H. Dove, entitled Spiritual Adultery, turned out to be a book about reincarnation.



"Date: 9/19/2004 11:02:36 AM Pacific Daylight Time
From: KAYKUZMA@aol.com
To: StanMcCluskey
Stan, I had heard there was a book on spiritual adultery. I mistakenly went up on Amazon.com and found the one by Dove--thinking that was the one that had been recommended to me. I made a mistake. The Christian book on spiritual adultery is really called, Why Some Christians Commit Adultery, by John Loren Sandford. Again, I have not read the book. I have no idea who Dove is...never read a word from him...and like you, I never want to! I'm sure glad you're the only person I've mentioned that book to!!!! Innocent mistakes can too easily become mountains! Kay "


I [Stan] reminded her that permission had been given to add her note to this Forum.

This post has been edited by Panama_Pete: Dec 27 2006, 10:01 PM

[watchbird]

you know it Greenie.... try dropping the term in an after dinner conversation this sabbath..... see how people react.... it is ludicrous.... unless of course you are of the mindset that women should be submissive 24/7 and that if they spend more than 5 minutes on the phone talking to a man that is not their hubby constitutes spiritual adultery..... foolishness.....

Interestingly enough, while I don't recall Sister having included this in any of her vignettes about life at 3abn, this type of "submissive wives" is very much a part of the Pentacostal teaching and practices that the women leaders at 3abn hold... and hold themselves to.

It is easy enough to understand why men insist on this kind of "lordship" in their own homes, for it means that their every whim is satisfied, while the woman proves her "worth" by giving up all of her own desires and wants... even some of her needs. I've never been able to understand why women fall for this.... and willingly go along with it. And yet the facts are that they do... and that it is as difficult to get them to break away from this and assert their own rights in a marriage as it is to get any abused to stand up against an abuser.

Of course this IS abuse.... spiritual abuse... which even when not accompanied by actual physical abuse is still devastating to the victim and damaging... even de-humanizing... to the perpetrator.

[lurker]

Linda's current address is on page 6 of the 990 form for 2005 that 3ABN filled out and filed with the IRS. It is the address I used to do an aerial search and to search for homes in her price range in her neighborhood. The address has not changed. Maybe I do have too much time on my hands but I am thorough and I deal in verifiable facts.

As to the pictures, they were of the only home I could find that was near hers. I looked for a home that would cost approximately the same as hers. Sorry, I couldn't find pictures of a mansion or a home with a bigger backyard though I tried. I wan't trying for a picture of a small backyard or a shabby house. I was looking for one that would be similar to Linda's.

This post has been edited by lurker: Dec 27 2006, 10:34 PM

[Panama_Pete]

This is the original Charles H. Dove recommendation, which resulted in the above correction being made above. It was posted to the Internet on September 13, right before the letter dated September 19, 2004, posted above.

Also, remember that Kay Kuzma was part of the four-member "fact finding" committee regarding Linda Shelton, along with Nicholas Miller, Bill Hulsey, and Walt Thompson.

Note Kay's definition of "spiritual adultery."

quote: Kay wrote:

"Dear Stan: God has put a spiritual "hole" in each of our hearts that can be filled by Him. When it is, we will be so bonded that we will give up family, career, everything for Him. God has given us marriage to understand how two people can become one--so we can better understand the trinity, but the spiritual "hole" shouldn't be filled with a human.

Unfortunately, if the hole is filled with another person, problems are created--especially if the person is not one's spouse! That's why we have so many pastors leaving the church--they have allowed their spiritual hole to be filled with another person whom they are helping spiritually. Too much Bible study and spiritual counseling with persons of the opposite sex can lead to emotional dependence and the person is willing to give up everything for this person. This is basically what Spiritual Adultery is. No, there does not have to be physical contact. However, in most cases it leads to that because as a man spends time meeting a woman's emotional needs, he unconsciously feels there should be a sexual payoff. And when a woman's emotional needs are met, she is more open to a sexual relationship.

Here's a book I think may be helpful. Spiritual Adultery by Charles H. Dove. You can get it through Amazon.com

Sincerely, Kay"

This post has been edited by Panama_Pete: Dec 27 2006, 10:30 PM

[Johann]

Joe does claim to know people at 3ABN and things. I don't know how Joe knows there's a pool, he hasn't answered, but I believe that it is very likely there is one because Johann claims he took a dip in it. I asked him some questions regarding the house and the pool, but he hasn't answered.Seems if Joe's incorrect then Johann would be the best person to set the record straight since he is the only person so far who claims to have been at and in Linda's house, and pool.

On the otherhand he also gave a thumbs up to pictures and info which Lurker posted from Springfield's Best homes, of houses with such small yards that all I could do was go: hmmm.... maybe she stores it in her hall closet when not in use???
This method of operating is all vaguely familiar.
I asked Johann about the change in his testimony on Maritime:

From this:

http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=141443

Johann:
Below is a form letter Dr. Walther Thompson is sending out as a reaction to Dr. Arild Abrahamsen's document. You will find my comments in blue in between...

Is it proper for one's doctor to give his patient a nice wrist watch?

[Johann Thorvaldsson:] Another ridiculous statement. In Scandinavia it is a custom to give one's hostess a gift. So Danny made the claim this was a sign of an engagement, claiming that this was a very expensive watch that Arild had given Linda. Now Walt merely calls it "nice"!

Arild and I received a catalog of things available on the aircraft. There was a rather cheap double-faced watch which interested Arild because it showed two time zones at the same time. So Arild bought it. Later we visited Linda and she gave us some tasty meals at Linda's-daughter's place. So Arild gave Linda this watch as a token of our appreciation for her hospitality. I'm not sure Linda liked that watch very much. It really is not that "nice"...
To this:
"Dr. Arild Abrahamsen and I had nothing else in mind when we leafed through the Continental Airlines price list on our flight from Norway to America in May, 2004. We knew Linda needed some encouragement. It was one of the cheapest little thing we could find, but it was not at all beautiful, no gold nor glitter. It was odd shaped because it showed the time in two time zones - a typical souvenir and nothing else."

and he was kind enough to give a explanation, but there was this poster, sky, who posted a picture of the watch and claimed it was sold on Continental airlines (no internet search confirmed this in any way), and Johann had responded "Thank you, Sky. It does not look much like an engagement watch, does it??" [leading us to believe that it was the watch in question] "Arild and I looked at the watch together and decided it was the right thing for Linda as a token of her hospitalilty, because we knew she had prepared a delicious vegetarian meal for both of us. We knew she had been fired and was not permitted to be present at the Camp Meeting, so she needed some encouragement."
[ I wondered how this could be true, when according to all , the board met after the campmeeting and then Linda was fired, and Dr Abrahmson testified they went there to testify before the board, and according to Danny he found the watch prior to Linda moving out of the home...]

however, all I posted was "Hi sky, I'm not sure where you got your information, or how you would know? Have you seen the watch, and is it your testimony that this is the exact same brand and model of watch given to Linda? Thanks :-) "

This was sky's response:"Dear Cindy, I know what Continental Airlines sells in the same way I know what comes with a Happy Meal.

Anybody confused about what the reference to hummer means here? or think a joke about oral sex is proof of anything, or that this is how an honest person- a true Christian -would answer?

I'm not.

I am sadly coming to the conclusion that many (not all) of the people involved in these issues (on both sides) just make empty claims and evil insinuations and are then understandably allergic to questions regarding them, or trying to be honest and accountable.

[url=http://www.blacksda.com/forums/ bless her soulindex.php?s=&showtopic=11914&view=findpost&p=165727]Even Sister seems infected with this disease of making claims and accusations, and then refusing to support or explain them in answer to questions.[/url] Who wans to condemn self???

Which is a very sad testimony about the professed people of God. I would love to be proven wrong here...

So, at this point I would like to have Johann answer about Linda's house and pool, and answer thesame question i asked sky:
"Have you seen the watch, and is it your testimony that this is the exact same brand and model of watch given to Linda? Thanks :-) "

Aletheia, in one rewspect you reminnd me of my dear Irmgard, to whom I was married for 51 years. In my work I often travelled, also to other countries. Even in the course of more than half a century I never managed to be sufficiently observant to answer all of her questions. I could not remember the ingredients in every meal I ate. I did not measure the homes I visited, and I failed at times to count all the rooms, the size of the windows, etc. But bless her memory, she never made some of the remarks about me that you do.

I am describing to you what I have experienced. I can see no descrepancies in my explanations, but then, I am not you. I was there and you were not. In one explanation I give more details than in the other.

I am now in Iceland, and that is too far from Illinois to just jump over there with a yardstick. So I base my evaluation on what I did observe. I was told there was a swimming pool at Linda's house. I went out the front door, looked around the corner and saw no pool. I also went out the back door, walked around and I still did not find the pool. I merely saw a few small trees and the neighbor houses. Then I found a side door, and there was the pool. This may explain why a photo from the sky does not reveal a pool there. Definitely not an Olympic size - just a modest pool in the back yard that is hard to find.

Did you see a picture of the watch given to Linda posted by Sky? No definately not. 1) A picture is never the real thing. 2) Sky posted a picture from a catalog that is published 2 years later, and there could be changes. 3) You saw a picture of a watch with a red band. As far as I recall the watch Linda got had a black band. Apart from that the watch looked quite similar. The point of it is that it was not a very expensive and beautiful watch like Walt and Danny said it was. Yes, Arild bought the watch with my approval, and he carried it until it was given to Linda. His coat had more pockets than mine.

[Panama_Pete]

This is the original Charles H. Dove recommendation, which resulted in the above correction being made in the previous post. It was posted to the Internet on September 13, right before the letter dated September 19, 2004, posted above.

Also, remember that Kay Kuzma was part of the four-member "fact finding" committee regarding Linda Shelton, along with Nicholas Miller, Bill Hulsey, and Walt Thompson.

Note Kay's definition of "spiritual adultery."

quote: Kay wrote:

"Dear Stan: God has put a spiritual "hole" in each of our hearts that can be filled by Him. When it is, we will be so bonded that we will give up family, career, everything for Him. God has given us marriage to understand how two people can become one--so we can better understand the trinity, but the spiritual "hole" shouldn't be filled with a human.

Unfortunately, if the hole is filled with another person, problems are created--especially if the person is not one's spouse! That's why we have so many pastors leaving the church--they have allowed their spiritual hole to be filled with another person whom they are helping spiritually. Too much Bible study and spiritual counseling with persons of the opposite sex can lead to emotional dependence and the person is willing to give up everything for this person. This is basically what Spiritual Adultery is. No, there does not have to be physical contact. However, in most cases it leads to that because as a man spends time meeting a woman's emotional needs, he unconsciously feels there should be a sexual payoff. And when a woman's emotional needs are met, she is more open to a sexual relationship.

Here's a book I think may be helpful. Spiritual Adultery by Charles H. Dove. You can get it through Amazon.com

Sincerely, Kay"

[HUGGINS130]

Good to see you Greenie.... wondered where you disappeared to....

Aletheia, I hear what you are saying but that dog won't hunt.... there is no such animal as "spiritual adultery" and no way to "prove" that a spouse was engaged in spiritual adultery.... And really it is not a ground for divorce..... no matter how many times Danny and his crew suggest that it is....

finally, something I can agree with in all this mess...

[Aletheia]

Aletheia,

The picture you posted has this URL on it: http://ronaldmchummer.com/.

That's true, but I looked at the source when sky posted it and his img url was from a personal blog featuring only that picture, which is of course not a real mcDonald's sign.

I can't see anything off color in what Sky said.

well, I may be wrong, but I personally can't see anything funny about free toy vehicles coming with a happy meal if that is all it meant, nor was I able to ever ask Sky anything further due to threads being closed.

I'm sure what we can agree on is that, he didn't really answer my question. but thanks Bob for the quick heads up. :-)

As far as looking at discrepancies goes, I would suggest that we need to weigh carefully whether a detail is forgotten or innocently garbled, or whether something was intentionally distorted.

I agree, the only way I know to do that is not to assume anything beforehand, and to try to keep an open mind while asking questions to try and figure that out. Not always easy..

blessings...

[Pickle]

Aletheia,

You might want to respond to Sky's complaint over at http://www.maritime-sda-online.org/forums/...=5582#Post83089

Joe,

To bring it back to an unanswered question I asked you, here's a repeat of a portion of http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=165972.

Another thing, don't forget that linda didn't just have $250,000.00 to live on.. she also had the Big check from Danny for her half of the house. That amounted to $150,000.00 to $200,000.00. He gave her more than the apraised value.

Here are a few questions, Joe:

• What was the appraised value?
• How much more than the appraised value did he give her?

See if you can dig up more info on this one. Did she really need a loan from the doctor if she really got all this money? How much did she really get?

Knowing the appraised value and how much Danny gave her for her half of the house will let us know just how kind and generous Danny really was.

[Aletheia]

Aletheia,

You might want to respond to Sky's complaint over at http://www.maritime-sda-online.org/forums/...=5582#Post83089

Done.

Thankyou. I did not realize we could reply to what was posted on the closed topics on Maritime, unless it was factual or documented items to be submitted. I was feeling rather censored, so this is good to know.

In light of that.

My apologies to all for bringing this up here first, when I should have posted there first.

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Dec 28 2006, 09:32 AM

[lurker]

Those of us who get property tax bills that are itemized know that the appraised value on the invoice is usually 1/2 of the fair market value. At least in the states I have lived in they are.

Now did Danny give Linda more than 1/2 of the tax appraised value which would only be more than 1/4 of the fair market value or did he give her more than 1/2 of the fair market value? I have not been able to find either the fmv or the appraised value for his home online. I am using his address listed on the 990 form filed by 3ABN. Some counties have this information online.

The 990's also list the amount she recieved each year from the agreement. It is quite different, as someone has pointed out, to recieve payments rather than a lump sum.

[calvin]

For those who are not absorbed by this saga and those looking in from the outside, this should appear rather silly that people are spending so much time debating/discussing and arguing the size of a $250,000 home. Why is this relevant and relevant to what?

[Aletheia]

Those of us who get property tax bills that are itemized know that the appraised value on the invoice is usually 1/2 of the fair market value. At least in the states I have lived in they are.

Now did Danny give Linda more than 1/2 of the tax appraised value which would only be more than 1/4 of the fair market value or did he give her more than 1/2 of the fair market value? I have not been able to find either the fmv or the appraised value for his home online. I am using his address listed on the 990 form filed by 3ABN. Some counties have this information online.

The 990's also list the amount she recieved each year from the agreement. It is quite different, as someone has pointed out, to recieve payments rather than a lump sum.

Well, I don't know about everyone else, but that's backwards from our situation[Indiana]. My Mom's house has been appraised by the County assessor as much higher then it's fair market value. We had to hire someone to the tune of over 300.00 to do an apraisal, and although you can get the value changed at the courthouse in order to owe less taxes, it is not easy, and we are still jumping through hoops to try and get this accomplished. We have several neighbors doing the same.

And again referring to the Walt Thompson letter, which contains the only reference to this I know of, he claimed Danny paid Linda more then the fair market value...

Whether that's actually the case, is another question.

~ Aletheia

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Dec 28 2006, 10:00 AM

[Denny]

For those who are not absorbed by this saga and those looking in from the outside, this should appear rather silly that people are spending so much time debating/discussing and arguing the size of a $250,000 home. Why is this relevant and relevant to what?

$250,000 you can't even buy a cupboard for that money in London, average house price here is £300,000/ $570,000

[Clay]

$250,000 you can't even buy a cupboard for that money in London, average house price here is £300,000/ $570,000

here in Alabama 250k gets you a really nice size house..... with a decent size pool.... and even some land, depending of course where you buy.....