Asi Responds Options

[sister]

Trust me, it doesn't take a Jean Dixon to predict what this forum will do......

Does it take the great prophet of 3ABN, the man exalted by John Lomacang, Shelley Quinn and Mollie Steenson? Whom they have compared to the great prophets of the Bible, including Moses? Now that is a joke! Having worked with Dan Shelton, in my personal opinion, his behavior is akin to a hick, red-necked, Southern conartist who steals the nickles and dimes from old ladies on fixed incomes, while using God as his frontman.

Sorry Di and Clay, but enough is enough. It is getting so deep around Bystander that even waders are not high enough to keep out of the muck. It must be all those years Dan spent on the "Honey Truck", I can still smell the aroma in these posts.

Sister

[Observer]

Harold Lance has distributed a message that makes certain claims about me, and my participation in the process with ASI. I am posting here a response that I made to Mr. Lance on December 3, 2006. This was early on in the process. My thoughts were still developing. With the passage of time, I became more clear in my mind as to what needed to be done. Here is my early response to Mr. Lance:



"Response to ASI

HL 061203



Introduction:



Overall I was encouraged by the outreach that Harold Lance has made to us. It is a good start. It reflects a good tone (spirit). In many ways it reflects where I am. Of course, I am going to think a document is good when it agrees with me. J



It seems to agree with my assessment of what must be accomplished if ASI can establish a panel that can achieve some degree of resolution. If he has read what I have previously posted on the Internet, he knows that I have stated that the following are the critical issues that the respective parties must agree upon if this panel is to be effective:



1) They must agree upon the issues to be considered.

2) They must agree upon the aim of the panel, or to put it another way, what the expected results are.

3) They must agree upon the process.



NOTE: In my previous public posts, I have expanded upon the above slightly.



In my understanding of what Harold has written, he also sees the above as critical issues.



I have reflected upon his document overnight. Without detracting from what I consider to be an excellent document, I will suggest that it contains a number of issues that need further clarification, and agreement by the parties. It is my intention in my response to identify those and to comment upon them. Any references that I may make to “critical issues,” unless otherwise identified, will reference the three listed above. To identify my point for discussion, I will quote from Harold’s document with a “Re:” followed by either the quotation, or a brief summary of a point in his document.



Discussion:



a) Re: “. . . request to ASI [by 3-ABN] that it establish a commission to evaluate and determine Danny’s’ [sic] legal and moral right to remarry.”



This falls under my critical issue # 1.



This request seems to limit the issues that are to be considered by this commission. Perhaps that is O.K., if the respective parties agree to this. In my mind, the marital issues, which have some importance, are much less important than other issues. Again, what do the respective parties want, and agree to?



A larger issue is that this wording restricts the marital issues to Danny and Linda, their divorce, and Danny’s remarriage. I will suggest that the marital issues are much larger than this focus. Danny has been charged, rightly or wrongly, I do not know, with sexual misconduct, during the time that he was married to Linda, and following the divorce, prior to his marriage to Brandi. These issues are clearly marital issues, yet they lie outside of the narrow focus as requested by 3-ABN.



I acknowledge that this commission cannot be expected to consider every one of the issues that are considered important by everyone. But, I think it is important that this commission issue a statement of such limitations, and that therefore interested parties are free to pursue redress in other venues, to include the civil authorities. After all, God established civil government, and directed all of us to submit to its rule, when not in conflict with God. This all is related to my critical issue # 2.



Re: “ASI has no jurisdiction. . . [and is without} authority to make orders and awards that disputants are required to follow.”



I agree wholeheartedly with the above. ASI is very limited in what it can accomplish. To place what Harold then states in words of my own: ASI can only make findings of fact, and recommendations. Again, this is related to my critical issue # 2. With this perspective, ASI cannot require binding resolution. There must be an acknowledgement that the parties are free to reject, and to see other venues for resolution. If any of the parties should do so, the findings of fact, and recommendations of the Commission would play a role as to how the SDA public perceived this situation. From this perspective, I believe that the parties would carefully consider such findings and recommendations, before rejecting them. I believe that this would be helpful.



c) Re: The Biblical appropriateness of the divorce and the remarriage.



We are on uncertain ground with this one, as important as it is. Regardless of the CHURCH MANUAL, we as a denomination do not agree with what constitutes Biblical grounds, and remarriage following divorce. In my personal opinion, as applied to this situation Biblical grounds must be limited to sexual misconduct, and what is commonly considered to be adultery. This presents us with a problem. Danny and 3-ABN (Dr. Thompson) have clearly stated, many times, that they have no proof that Linda violated what I have just laid out above. From this standpoint, by the thinking of some, with this admission from Danny and 3-ABN, the Commission can only find that Linda did not provide Danny with Biblical grounds for divorce. I agree with that position, until it is proven to me that she did commit adultery.



NOTE: In my mind, and that of many conservative SDAs so-called “spiritual adultery” and adultery in one’s thoughts are not Biblical grounds. ASI will clearly, in my mind be off the conservative platform if it suggests any such do constitute Biblical grounds. Any such opinion coming from it will highly disturb its conservative base of support.



[NOTE: I have removed six lines of text as it was quite personal in regard to an issue with one individual. I do not believe that these six lines need to be published to the world at large at this point in time. If I later change my mind, I will publish them--GM.]



There is also another issue here that is raised due to the fact that the SDA church is divided in regard to what are Biblical grounds for divorce and remarriage. It is a fundamental issue under law that people be treated equally. It is likely that people are not treated equally in this issue, and are treated according to the congregation in which they find themselves. The ASI Committee should consider not only Biblical grounds, the CHRUCH MANUAL, but also the typical way that people are treated today in SDA congregations. I.e. They should not treat either Danny or Linda more strictly than they would be treated in the typical local congregation. This is required by basic fairness.



Retention in a position of spiritual leadership is an appropriate consideration. I.e. A person might be retained in church membership, yet removed from a position of major ministry. When such is done, there is an obligation to treat all in the same manner. E.g. If Linda is to be examined as to her conduct, and whether or not she should be retained in a position of spiritual leadership, so also should Danny be examined. And, her treatment should also be examined in relation to other people who may also have been charged with sexual misconduct.



d) Re: Issues of Danny and Linda’s employment:



ASI can only recommend. It cannot enforce. ASI potentially could recommend that Danny be relieved from all employment at 3-ABN, if this was thought to be appropriate. However, it is a stretch of the imagination to believe that such would happen if ASI were to recommend it.



As to Linda: Realistically, she could not effectively return to 3-ABN unless there was a major change in leadership to include the Board. She simply would not be allowed to effectively work there, and would likely be marginalized.



e) Re: Issues regarding Linda’s membership:



Linda is presently a member, in good standing, in a SDA Church recognized by a recognized SDA Conference. Her membership should not be an issue.



Should ASI consider how she was treated by her church of former membership? Perhaps? Maybe? I am not certain? What would be accomplished? Within the denominational rules that are supposed to govern such, local congregations have the authority, right or wrong. Perhaps the best that could be said might be so say that the relationship between Linda, the local congregation, the Conference and its leadership, and 3-ABN, was of such a nature that denominational rules in existence did not provide the guidance that was needed, and that therefore issues of potential ethical conflicts arise out of this situation.



NOTE: I am not attempting to prejudge the case, or to suggest that there is only one conclusion that the Committed may make. I think that there are many aspect of this case that present very hard questions and I am not certain that ASI can resolve them. Perhaps, however, they can raise issues that may be resolved for future situations should they rise again.



f) Re: Fundamentals as outlined by Mr. Lance:



He has listed a number which are of value.



g) Re: Selection of the Panel, # 10:



More is involved than just selecting people who are fair, intelligent, spiritual, and without preconceived opinion. I will suggest that the panel should have members who may have expertise in some areas. E.g. [NOTE: I have removed three lines her for the reasons stated above-GM.]



If the ethical standards of Dr. A. come into question, the panel should have someone on it who can discuss the professional ethical standards for a person in Dr. A’s position in Norway, where he lives. There may be some common ethical standards that are present everywhere. But, ethical standards are often determined in part by local law and culture. I.e. If it is unethical for a physician in the US to give a specific gift to a patient, one cannot say that such would be unethical in Norway.



h) Re: Items A – F, on page 3, in regard to legal practices that Mr. Lance does not think apply.



I think a so-called “judge,” or someone who can direct the panel, might be helpful under some situations, if carefully chosen.



I also believe that there may be situations where it might be helpful to take depositions, such as dealing with women who have charged someone with sexual misconduct.



The issue of a record is important. There must be enough detail to provide a historical record for the future.



‘i) Re: Balance between privacy and openness.



There is a clear place for privacy. Women who accuse someone of sexual misconduct must have some expectation of privacy. Society in general recognizes such.



However, society distinguishes between common people and public figures. Danny and Linda are both public figures. Both have been accused publicly of major sins. Neither rightly has the expectation of privacy that a common person might have. In any case, with the publication of their alleged sins for the world to read, privacy in not the answer at this time. In fairness to both of them, a final report should report findings on the accusations that have been made against them. As public figures, the SDA public needs to know such findings. If this is not done, these issues will not go away. They will remain in public view and under public discussion.



j) One final note, although not brought up in this document by Mr. Lance: ASI must accept the decision of the respective parties as to who represents that party before ASI. ASI cannot automatically exclude anyone."


January 25, 2007: Folks, the above was an early response to Mr. Lance. Note my three listed critical issues. Without agreement on those, the attempt by ASI would fail. I do not beleive that ASI discussed those appropriately with us. Over time, and with further reflection, my positions became clearer, and I was able to state them with more specifics. But, this was an early response to Mr. Lance. You-all can judge for yourselves what it tells about my willingness to participate in a process and a willingness to come to a place where ASI could assist. I will suggest that there is nothing here that reflects an agenda that precluds resolution. I participated in a manner to facilitate the process. But, the process failed.

This post has been edited by Observer: Jan 25 2007, 09:26 AM

[eye witness]

Does it take the great prophet of 3ABN, the man exalted by John Lomacang, Shelley Quinn and Mollie Steenson? Whom they have compared to the great prophets of the Bible, including Moses? Now that is a joke! Having worked with Dan Shelton, in my personal opinion, his behavior is akin to a hick, red-necked, Southern conartist who steals the nickles and dimes from old ladies on fixed incomes, while using God as his frontman.

Sorry Di and Clay, but enough is enough. It is getting so deep around Bystander that even waders are not high enough to keep out of the muck. It must be all those years Dan spent on the "Honey Truck", I can still smell the aroma in these posts.

Sister

"Are you suggesting we should stand back and wait for God to send a lightning bolt? Do you honestly think that's the kindest, mopst merciful, most godly approach?" (Quote From Pickle days ago.)

Sister your team and yourself have bluffed the people here!!!! You pretend you want some sort of solution but when the opportunity comes. YOU DON'T SHOW!!!! I believe that people are sick of the he said, she said. It appears this made you shakkkkkke and shivvvver WHY??? Was this not a good enough start for some solution????? Why do you, and yours, feel everyone in the Ministries (plur) around the world have a problem??? Why do you feel that your worthy and no one else is??? Why do you set and pick like a chicken at peoples lives and then NOT step forward with what you call Truth???? Linda why do you pretend you don't know anything about all this garbage?????? You post personal emails and then act like you have been Gagged all this time!!!!!!! Why do you want to see God's ministry set up to YOUR specifications?????
Is this your cabniet: Linda Shelton as President (thinks she can do a better job and much holier)
Darrell Mundall CAN REPLACE Tommy, because they have many similar
characteristic. (Well you know you know everything.)
Calvin could replace Mollie (He seems inconsitant with managment.)
Gailon Joy could replace Larry Ewing (As Cheif financial officer. With
excellent money management skills.)
Rodney Laney could continue as Production Dir. (As long as you can tolerate his
temper with employees and his daughter.)
Randy Brewer can be Rodney Laney's inspiration and "Girl Friday."
Steve S. can replace John Lomacang as spiritual leader.
Sandra can finally get John Dinzey's position as Head of Spanish.
Barbara Kerr can be head cook and you can assist just as before.
BSDA Administrators can become the New 3ABN Board. )Providing they can
stay in the same room with out quarreling and play nice with each other.)

Sounds sweet, doesn't it? Or would you trash these after all these years? Hum, that is a good question!

[Clay]

"Are you suggesting we should stand back and wait for God to send a lightning bolt? Do you honestly think that's the kindest, mopst merciful, most godly approach?" (Quote From Pickle days ago.)

Sister your team and yourself have bluffed the people here!!!! You pretend you want some sort of solution but when the opportunity comes. YOU DON'T SHOW!!!! I believe that people are sick of the he said, she said. It appears this made you shakkkkkke and shivvvver WHY??? Was this not a good enough start for some solution????? Why do you, and yours, feel everyone in the Ministries (plur) around the world have a problem??? Why do you feel that your worthy and no one else is??? Why do you set and pick like a chicken at peoples lives and then NOT step forward with what you call Truth???? Linda why do you pretend you don't know anything about all this garbage?????? You post personal emails and then act like you have been Gagged all this time!!!!!!! Why do you want to see God's ministry set up to YOUR specifications?????
Is this your cabniet: Linda Shelton as President (thinks she can do a better job and much holier)
Darrell Mundall CAN REPLACE Tommy, because they have many similar
characteristic. (Well you know you know everything.)
Calvin could replace Mollie (He seems inconsitant with managment.)
Gailon Joy could replace Larry Ewing (As Cheif financial officer. With
excellent money management skills.)
Rodney Laney could continue as Production Dir. (As long as you can tolerate his
temper with employees and his daughter.)
Randy Brewer can be Rodney Laney's inspiration and "Girl Friday."
Steve S. can replace John Lomacang as spiritual leader.
Sandra can finally get John Dinzey's position as Head of Spanish.
Barbara Kerr can be head cook and you can assist just as before.
BSDA Administrators can become the New 3ABN Board. )Providing they can
stay in the same room with out quarreling and play nice with each other.)

Sounds sweet, doesn't it? Or would you trash these after all these years? Hum, that is a good question!

she's got jokes.... not good jokes, but jokes nonetheless....

[watchbird]

she's got jokes.... not good jokes, but jokes nonetheless....

Poor thing... she tries... in fact she is very trying... but she just doesn't have the "material" to work with.... and she's getting desperate trying to make do.... so sad...

But the "waiting for a lightning bolt from God".... now that's a pretty accurate summation of what is going on.... waiting patiently for the Lord.... while at the same time we are "working while we wait".... as He opens doors and points us each to our individual "work".

[eye witness]

Poor thing... she tries... in fact she is very trying... but she just doesn't have the "material" to work with.... and she's getting desperate trying to make do.... so sad...

But the "waiting for a lightning bolt from God".... now that's a pretty accurate summation of what is going on.... waiting patiently for the Lord.... while at the same time we are "working while we wait".... as He opens doors and points us each to our individual "work".

This is the Best I can do. Have you any other ideas? There has to be some thought if there is to be reconstruction. I read there is no desire for any that are there at 3ABN now. So who is in the running. Oh, come on let us all in on the plans.

edited for content.....

[Snoopy]

Harold Lance has distributed a message that makes certain claims about me, and my participation in the process with ASI. I am posting here a response that I made to Mr. Lance on December 3, 2006. This was early on in the process. My thoughts were still developing. With the passage of time, I became more clear in my mind as to what needed to be done. Here is my early response to Mr. Lance:

Hi Observer,

I've not been around long, but I just wanted to say that for what I have read thus far I have found your posts to be objective and unbiased - very helpful to me in my pursuit of the truth. For that I thank you.

[Johann]

she's got jokes.... not good jokes, but jokes nonetheless....

Astute and accurate

This is the Best I can do.
- - -

edited for content.....

Count your blessings, name them . . .

[Seraphim7]

she's got jokes.... not good jokes, but jokes nonetheless....

She may have jokes, but what is truly needed is a firm grip on reality which is lacking.

[Spike]

As christians I feel it is our duty to up hold Eyewitness in prayer. I don't think that I have read such uglyness from a poster on BSDA as I have her and I really think she needs help.

This post has been edited by Spike: Jan 25 2007, 12:27 PM

[caribbean sda]

she's got jokes.... not good jokes, but jokes nonetheless....

Sheesh...everyone's a comedian these days... you're too kind, Clay

[princessdi]

Girlfirend you've got issues..........this post sounds a bit desperate. I am sure there is someone you can talk to about these anger issues. Will be keeping you in prayer. Seriously.

"Are you suggesting we should stand back and wait for God to send a lightning bolt? Do you honestly think that's the kindest, mopst merciful, most godly approach?" (Quote From Pickle days ago.)

Sister your team and yourself have bluffed the people here!!!! You pretend you want some sort of solution but when the opportunity comes. YOU DON'T SHOW!!!! I believe that people are sick of the he said, she said. It appears this made you shakkkkkke and shivvvver WHY??? Was this not a good enough start for some solution????? Why do you, and yours, feel everyone in the Ministries (plur) around the world have a problem??? Why do you feel that your worthy and no one else is??? Why do you set and pick like a chicken at peoples lives and then NOT step forward with what you call Truth???? Linda why do you pretend you don't know anything about all this garbage?????? You post personal emails and then act like you have been Gagged all this time!!!!!!! Why do you want to see God's ministry set up to YOUR specifications?????
Is this your cabniet: Linda Shelton as President (thinks she can do a better job and much holier)
Darrell Mundall CAN REPLACE Tommy, because they have many similar
characteristic. (Well you know you know everything.)
Calvin could replace Mollie (He seems inconsitant with managment.)
Gailon Joy could replace Larry Ewing (As Cheif financial officer. With
excellent money management skills.)
Rodney Laney could continue as Production Dir. (As long as you can tolerate his
temper with employees and his daughter.)
Randy Brewer can be Rodney Laney's inspiration and "Girl Friday."
Steve S. can replace John Lomacang as spiritual leader.
Sandra can finally get John Dinzey's position as Head of Spanish.
Barbara Kerr can be head cook and you can assist just as before.
BSDA Administrators can become the New 3ABN Board. )Providing they can
stay in the same room with out quarreling and play nice with each other.)

Sounds sweet, doesn't it? Or would you trash these after all these years? Hum, that is a good question!

[Fran]

As Christians I feel it is our duty to up hold Eyewitness in prayer. I don't think that I have read such ugliness from a poster on BSDA as I have her and I really think she needs help.

I agree 100%. She does need our prayers. Her cry is of desperation. She does seem to be holding on for dear life. We should all pray for her in a special way.

I have been in a corner where there seems to be no way out. This is not a bad place to be. Only God can help.

This is really hard on the Shelton Family. Their employment is at stake. If Danny goes, they all go. How will they feed their families with out Danny? Fight, yes, I would fight.

She is grabbing at straws out of desperation. We need to pray that God will protect all of the innocent and expose only the guilty.

Eye Witness;

I am praying for you and your family. Look up, redemption is nearer than you think.

[jene]

lol.... ummmmm because ummmm see what happened was errrr ummmm

[awesumtenor]

This is really hard on the Shelton Family. Their employment is at stake. If Danny goes, they all go. How will they feed their families with out Danny? Fight, yes, I would fight.

Not to mention they'd have to start flying commercial...

In His service,
Mr. J