Proofs, Or Lack Thereof, A concern of causing false assumptions Options

[Pickle]

Hi Mozart.

My comments were more regarding the general topic rather than the specifics you referred to.

Is the church that appears to be about to fall a body of true believers, or is it an organization? I'll break your question into two parts.

First of all, we cannot limit the church to only true believers because then there is no place for church organization. Only God can read the heart, and thus only God can tell who is a true believer and who isn't. Because of our inability to read the heart, there is no guarantee that every member and every officer is a true believer, and thus there can be no church organization if we have to limit membership and offices to only true believers.

Secondly, you appropriately used the word "body," for Paul uses that word too. The human body is extremely organized. Thus the very word "body" in reference to the church mandates that that term refer to an organization of parts that are as closely associated and as intricately connected as the parts of the human body.

[mozart]

thanks mr. p. i'll have to digest that for a bit.

Hi Mozart.

My comments were more regarding the general topic rather than the specifics you referred to.

Is the church that appears to be about to fall a body of true believers, or is it an organization? I'll break your question into two parts.

First of all, we cannot limit the church to only true believers because then there is no place for church organization. Only God can read the heart, and thus only God can tell who is a true believer and who isn't. Because of our inability to read the heart, there is no guarantee that every member and every officer is a true believer, and thus there can be no church organization if we have to limit membership and offices to only true believers.

Secondly, you appropriately used the word "body," for Paul uses that word too. The human body is extremely organized. Thus the very word "body" in reference to the church mandates that that term refer to an organization of parts that are as closely associated and as intricately connected as the parts of the human body.

[Voktar of Zargon]

The natural human response to encountering sin and corruption on a localized level is to globalize it. In our families when one spouse says or does something wrong the injured spouse says something like, "you always do that." or "You never do this." The fact is that this is not allways true. The same is true with the church, which is referred to as the 'household' of God. The main reason that people go out the back door and leave the church is because they globalize sin and try to throw the wheat out with the tares. Some even go so far as to throw Jesus out with the dirty church bath water. They forget that the church is a hospital for sinners. They forget that church administrators are sinners too. Of course their sins are often believed to be unforgiveable (of course they do have greater responsibility).
The temptation with the 3ABN problem (as bad as it is) is to globalize and view the entire church leadership as corrupt. This is really nothing more than a prejudicial/bigoted response. Most church members on the local level don't know any administrators personally. Yet they are willing to lump them all together into one corrupt nepotistic group. Have they personal knowledge of any specific sin? Or, have they just blindly accepted third or fourth hand gossip without having confirmed the facts. Have they lodged a grievance or protest with the proper or specific authorities? Not usually. Instead prejudiced gossip prevails. Even to the extent of taking Biblical texts that have always been applied by Adventists to the Great Roman Apostasy and now applying them to the Adventist church. Can anyone who understands how fully anti-christian that Biblical apostasy is, apply it to Adventism?
We live in a time when all organization is suspect. We often forget that one of the reasons organization is developed is to minimize and prevent corruption! That of course was a major intent with the development of our current system of democratic American government. Does corruption exist? Definitely! Would we want to discard our government? No! As imperfect as it is, its the best we have to work with. Anything else would produce even more corruption, chaos, or anarchy.
Likewise our system of church polity is one of the best in Christendom - helping to minimize and prevent corruption on the corporate level - while also helping to facilitate the spread of the gospel on the wordwide level in an organized way, rather than an independent/haphazard/disorganized fashion.
“Although there are evils existing in the church, and will be until the end of the world, the church in these last days is to be the light of the world that is polluted and demoralized by sin.. The church, enfeebled and defective, needing to be reproved, warned, and counselled, is the only object upon earth upon which Christ bestows His supreme regard. “– RH Sept. 5, 1893
“I know that the Lord loves His church. It is not to be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms. There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be. Those who shall heed this false message and try to leaven others will be deceived and prepared to receive advanced delusions, and they will come to nought.”{Mar 203.2}

[LaurenceD]

Voktar, as always...thanks for your comments. Would you be willing to offer an explanation on why certain groups feel compelled to become "independent ministries" or "self-supporting?"

[Shepherdswife]

The natural human response to encountering sin and corruption on a localized level is to globalize it.
The temptation with the 3ABN problem (as bad as it is) is to globalize and view the entire church leadership as corrupt. This is really nothing more than a prejudicial/bigoted response. Most church members on the local level don't know any administrators personally. Yet they are willing to lump them all together into one corrupt nepotistic group.

Thanks so much for that human nature/big-picture view... I had been pondering how to respond to it myself.

I have the privilege of being good friends with all of the leadership in our local conference office and their wives as well and find them to be anything but corrupt.

I understand the frustration with the seeming lack of official response on the part of the church to the allegations. I wonder about it myself. However, in my experience here locally, when legal issues are involved, leadership moves v-e-r-y cautiously and only when all the "i"s are dotted and "t"s are crossed, for obvious reasons. They get the job done, just not hastily. Which in the long run is best, I suppose :-)

shepherdswife

[mozart]

Thank you Voktar of Zargon and Shepherdswife for some food I've been seeking. That gives me even more to digest.

Thanks so much for that human nature/big-picture view... I had been pondering how to respond to it myself.

I have the privilege of being good friends with all of the leadership in our local conference office and their wives as well and find them to be anything but corrupt.

I understand the frustration with the seeming lack of official response on the part of the church to the allegations. I wonder about it myself. However, in my experience here locally, when legal issues are involved, leadership moves v-e-r-y cautiously and only when all the "i"s are dotted and "t"s are crossed, for obvious reasons. They get the job done, just not hastily. Which in the long run is best, I suppose :-)

shepherdswife

[LadyTenor]

Clay? Is this... ...tiresome?

Naw...it's just right? (You know, every woman has the right to change her mind...)

LadyTenor, please accept my apologies for laughing, it's just....ouch! Hey!

You said it quite perfectly...I can change my mind as much as you can laugh. Truthfully, I don't come here often...unless one of my BSDA buddies asks me a legal question and then I have to read a whole bunch of posts to ensure I don't put my foot in my mouth when I respond. Otherwise, this is one of my least read forums....plenty of other more important things on BSDA to get involved in...like the arcade...

[FineArt]

Hi,

I am going to add this for whatever it is worth pertaining to the "church"/"falling away"

2Th 2:3
"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"

The Great Controversy--- A Great Religious Awakening-----PG- 356

"The apostle Paul warned the church not to look for the coming of Christ in his day. "That day shall not come," he says, "except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed." 2 Thessalonians 2:3. Not till after the great apostasy, and the long period of the reign of the "man of
sin," can we look for the advent of our Lord. The "man of sin," which is also styled "the mystery of iniquity," "the son of perdition," and "that wicked," represents the papacy, which, as foretold in prophecy, was to maintain its supremacy for 1260 years. This period ended in 1798. The coming of
Christ could not take place before that time. Paul covers with his caution the whole of the Christian dispensation down to the year 1798. It is this side of that time that the message of Christ's second coming is to be proclaimed."

This is History.....what we are going to experience is the sifting and shaking.

the church is not Babylon, but there is Babylon in the church. The Church is not in apostacy but there is apostacy in the church. Jesus comes back for a pure people and the above is the refining fire. There will come a time in the near future, where the laws will be in place that will cause God's people to flee for their lives......there is no organised church in that day, the victorious saints will be dwelling in caves, " etc...etc.

an added thought:

Even in the Adventist Church

"We have far more to fear from within than from without. The hindrances to strength and success are far greater from the church itself than from the world. Unbelievers have a right to expect that those who profess to be keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, will do more than any other class to promote and honor, by their consistent lives, by their godly example and their active influence, the cause which they represent. But how often have the professed advocates of the truth proved the greatest obstacle to its advancement! The unbelief indulged, the doubts expressed, the darkness cherished, encourage the presence of evil angels, and open the way for the accomplishment of Satan's devices."--1SM 122 (1887).

Praise God from whom all blessings fall

[Skyhook]

Even in the Adventist Church

"We have far more to fear from within than from without. The hindrances to strength and success are far greater from the church itself than from the world. Unbelievers have a right to expect that those who profess to be keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, will do more than any other class to promote and honor, by their consistent lives, by their godly example and their active influence, the cause which they represent. But how often have the professed advocates of the truth proved the greatest obstacle to its advancement! The unbelief indulged, the doubts expressed, the darkness cherished, encourage the presence of evil angels, and open the way for the accomplishment of Satan's devices."--1SM 122 (1887).

Praise God from whom all blessings fall

Thanks for your comments FineArt. It is true that there will come a time when the church will not be able to function as an organization. When access to the financial system is denied to us by law, the church cannot pay salaries, cannot pay bills and will not be able to carry out its mission as an organization. As I understand it that will be just before or after the close of probation when the work of the organized church is finished.

It is clear that in EGW's statements about the church not falling, she is talking about the organized church, not some mystical unorganized body of true believers, some in and some out of the organized church, as some believe.

I have heard it said by one influential minister that in decades past we expected Satan to attack the church like a herd of elephants, but he came in like a herd of termites, and like termites, by the time we became fully aware of it the pillars and foundation of the church were already under attack.

This post has been edited by Skyhook: May 21 2007, 01:01 PM

[SoulEspresso]

Voktar--congratulations on your note posted to save3abn.com!!

The temptation with the 3ABN problem (as bad as it is) is to globalize and view the entire church leadership as corrupt. This is really nothing more than a prejudicial/bigoted response. Most church members on the local level don't know any administrators personally. Yet they are willing to lump them all together into one corrupt nepotistic group. Have they personal knowledge of any specific sin? Or, have they just blindly accepted third or fourth hand gossip without having confirmed the facts. Have they lodged a grievance or protest with the proper or specific authorities? Not usually.

A lot of times people believe the organization to be corrupt when in fact the people involved are inept or apathetic, or because they believe the ends justify the means.

450 people in my area witnessed the latter when our union president tried to manipulate the constituency in session to re-elect the conference president. Is the union guy a bad man? No, but like is true of myself most of the time, he visibly was not trusting the Lord enough. He tried to end discussion and deny people the voice they'd gathered for; he manipulated the data; and he tried to make it look like he wasn't offering recommendations to the group when everyone could see that the way he said it was exactly that. In the end our local president was re-elected by just a few votes. The margin was so narrow the word on the street is already that they're looking for a job for him.

I like both guys, but the union chair obviously didn't trust the church members to do what was right for the conference.

Likewise our system of church polity is one of the best in Christendom - helping to minimize and prevent corruption on the corporate level - while also helping to facilitate the spread of the gospel on the wordwide level in an organized way, rather than an independent/haphazard/disorganized fashion.

There are many positives to our church organization in terms of unity and getting "the work" done--not to mention the benefits to employees.

At the same time, it's even more, um, beastly than the RC church. The only religious structure that is more organized is the LDS (Mormon) church. I don't think this is a positive; it disempowers the local church by sending money up and down the ladder (AU profs will tell you that most of the money is spent on the local level--not acknowledging that it comes with excessive control); and the documents that govern the organization are so arcane and difficult that people who aren't familiar with them are able to make very little sense of them.

When it comes to electing the GC, for example, we have a "Committee to Select the President." College of Cardinals, anyone?

The reason that we have to be so organized and insular (the trademark on "Seventh-day Adventist" is an example; the fact that conferences and not congregations usually own the sanctuary buildings is another) is that 90% of the time (rhetorical emphasis, okay?) we make Adventists by appealing to spiritual pride. "Be better than your other Christian neighbors--keep the seventh day! Don't be deceived like everyone else--look here and see that the dead are asleep until the resurrection!" The kind of mindset this creates, turns out to keep going. People want to be the remnant of the remnant of the remnant--and you get Reformed Adventists, etc, who start calling the Adventist church Babylon.

(By the way, other religious groups mentioned in this post are there for illustrative purposes only. The author of this post by no means intends to impugn the spiritual commitment of adherents or such groups. We can disagree theologically without drinking haterade.)

It is clear that in EGW's statements about the church not falling, she is talking about the organized church, not some mystical unorganized body of true believers, some in and some out of the organized church, as some believe.

Be that as it may ... here are a couple of questions.

Are all the people who are going to be saved members of the Adventist church?
Are all the members of the Adventist church going to be saved?
Who, then, makes up the "true church"?

The EGW statements posted on this thread have been wonderful and I have appreciated them.

But EGW was capable of being wrong, you know.




This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: May 21 2007, 02:46 PM

[Noahswife]

Has anyone else noticed what I believe is a most interesting phenomena that occurs when the Danny scribes/fingers/clones are essentially mute?

We have two things occurring at the same time in my opinion. The first is that discussion on old and new topics regarding 3abn (notice not just LS and associated issues) move forward with fascinating input often from newbies in addition to the old guard. The second is that our conversations often revolve around the SDA church and what it means to not only the membership in good standing but the rest of the world.

My kudos to the newbies who speak with fresh and inspired voices lately.

Also, the next time we have DS supporters in our midst, lets just put every darn one of them on ignore and carry on without their distractions and subversions.......

This post has been edited by Noahswife: May 21 2007, 07:54 PM

[Skyhook]

Be that as it may ... here are a couple of questions.

Are all the people who are going to be saved members of the Adventist church?

>No.
Are all the members of the Adventist church going to be saved?
>No.
Who, then, makes up the "true church"?
>If you mean who is going to be saved, That is God's department to decide. My statement concerned what EGW was talking about. It seems very clear that she was writing about the visible, concrete existing organized church.

The EGW statements posted on this thread have been wonderful and I have appreciated them.

But EGW was capable of being wrong, you know.

>I don't know about you SE, but that is the kind of statement made by those who apply a "higher critical" approach to her writings. In other words, that attitude is that we must decide for ourselves if this or that statement was really inspired. We become the judge of inspiration. The same approach is often used with the Bible itself. It is very appealing for a person who doesn't like some of the thing she said. I don't personally subscribe to that approach.

I believe that there is a different thread that has been dealing with the inspiration of Ellen White.

[Pickle]

It is true that there will come a time when the church will not be able to function as an organization. When access to the financial system is denied to us by law, the church cannot pay salaries, cannot pay bills and will not be able to carry out its mission as an organization. As I understand it that will be just before or after the close of probation when the work of the organized church is finished.

I hesitate to say one way or the other on this one. For example, have there been times in the history of the world when there has been church organization even though no one was paying salaries? In the USSR? In China? Throughout Europe during the escapades of the Waldensians and kindred groups?

At what point prior to the second coming will there no need for any sort of leadership to encourage and pray with the believers?

Perhaps we just need to wait and see.

[FineArt]

I have found that when i think i am reading something from the Bible or SOP that might be confusing ....further study [topical study/comparing SOP with the Bible] always reveals MY understanding is flawed, not the Inspired Word.

[Rosyroi]

Has anyone else noticed what I believe is a most interesting phenomena that occurs when the Danny scribes/fingers/clones are essentially mute?

We have two things occurring at the same time in my opinion. The first is that discussion on old and new topics regarding 3abn (notice not just LS and associated issues) move forward with fascinating input often from newbies in addition to the old guard. The second is that our conversations often revolve around the SDA church and what it means to not only the membership in good standing but the rest of the world.

My kudos to the newbies who speak with fresh and inspired voices lately.

Also, the next time we have DS supporters in our midst, let just put every darn one of them on ignore and carry on without their distractions and subversions.......

NW... I was thinking the same thing. Thank you very much for voicing my thoughts so elequently.

Rosyroi