Proofs, Or Lack Thereof, A concern of causing false assumptions Options

[Rosyroi]

FineArt,
Wonderful collection of statements!

I wonder if satellites will still be beaming signals around the world while we are in hiding and waiting for deliverance.....

In my youth I had believed that we would be able to 'hide in the mountains' with no problems. Even be able to live in groups to support and help each other. Later with infared and now satellites and other technowlogy we don't even know about, we will not be able to hide anywhere no matter how remote we try to hide. It concerned me for awhile.

Once when I was discussng this concern with another child of God the person pointed out to me that God can put his hand over our bodies to hide us from any infared or satellite or any other modern technology man can devise. 'With men this is impossible, but with God ALL things are possible.(Matt. 19:26, RSV)(emphasis mine)

I felt embarrassed to have forgotten that promise. Daily I need to remind myself to trust God in ALL things.

IMHO

Rosyroi

[Brick Step]

'Voktar of Zargon' 'May 21 2007
"The natural human response to encountering sin and corruption on a localized level is to globalize it. In our families when one spouse says or does something wrong the injured spouse says something like, "you always do that." or "You never do this." The fact is that this is not allways true. The same is true with the church, which is referred to as the 'household' of God. The main reason that people go out the back door and leave the church is because they globalize sin and try to throw the wheat out with the tares."

Thank you, Voktar of Zargon, for these very insightful comments. God grant us all the wisdom and grace we need at this time. I am for respect of the organized, worldwide Seventh-day Adventist church. I recognize also that independent, self-supporting ministries have always been part of His plan, and they also are run by fallible mortals, sometimes needing to be rebuked, but also encouraged. I like the way you have cautioned us, as a general rule, not to “globalize” when we see corruption and sin in the family or in the church. Would you agree that under God, it is just as important, as a general rule, not to globalize when we see corruption and sin in an independent ministry? While feeling there are issues in the 3ABN administration that need to be set right, I confess to loving and being greatly blessed by 3ABN in its up front witness. Thousands would say the same. It IS leading souls to Christ and stablishing them in the faith.

Whether church structure or independent ministry, I feel much cautioned also by this counsel.

“I have warned you against a spirit of censure, and I would again caution you in regard to that fault. Christ sometimes reproved with severity, and in some cases it may be necessary for us to do so; but we should consider that while Christ knew the exact condition of the ones He rebuked, and just the amount of reproof they could bear, and what was necessary to correct their course of wrong, He also knew just how to pity the erring, comfort the unfortunate, and encourage the weak. He knew just how to keep souls from despondency and to inspire them with hope, because He was acquainted with the exact motives and peculiar trials of every mind. He could not make a mistake.

“But we may misjudge motives; we may be deceived by appearances; we may think we are doing right to reprove wrong, and go too far, censure too severely, and wound where we wished to heal; or we may exercise sympathy unwisely and counteract, in our ignorance, reproof that is merited and timely. Our judgment may be wrong, but Jesus was too wise to err. He reproved with pity and loved with a divine love those whom He rebuked.” Testimonies, Vol. 4, p. 66.

This post has been edited by Brick Step: May 23 2007, 05:02 AM

[PeacefulBe]

Welcome Brick Step!

More wise counsel from you and Voktar.

If we see blatant sin within one of our Christian organizations, we must confront it or become culpable for it as well. However, when confronting it we MUST do so as our Example did, with pity and with love.

The "Church Lady" approach to rebuking sin misses the mark in this regard and solves nothing.

[Brick Step]

As the 3ABN situation is being placed under the microscope, understandings about God's attitude to church structure and independent ministries are obviously part of the equation, part of the bank of knowledge that will affect attitudes and motivations in the judgment process. Our home is praying most earnestly that God will move to administer the right blend of justice and mercy to every person and entity concerned.

I love the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I just fear that thousands are going to be left clinging to the structure, thinking this was safely to be equated with clinging to Jesus.

The Jews of Jesus’ day had been taught to look for triumph for their Jewish church organization, and deliverance from the Romans. When Jesus preached, “My kingdom is not of this world,” He disappointed the expectations of the majority of church members. Thousands turned away and ceased from following Him. Could similar false expectations lead us off course just before Jesus’ second coming?

- If (because the gospel work is done) God’s ownership of the SDA church organization ceases at the close of probation;
- if the close of probation for the church occurs during the sealing time and ahead of the general close of probation for the world;
- if the time of the close of probation is near;
- if the time of the close of probation for the church, as for the world, is not to come for us “as a thief in the night”;
is it not imperative that Adventist believers are prepared doctrinally, philosophically, psychologically and in every way, for this moment? The security of the final 144,000 is to be found—even before the close of probation—in “following the Lamb wherever He goes”, not in following any mere mortal or committee of mere mortals. Church members, of all people, should be careful not to judge other members and friends as being proud, arrogant or egotistical because in their devotion to Jesus and desire to follow the directives of Providence, they feel led to work in a manner different from "the regular lines."

On the subject of the Seventh-day Adventist Church structure—so often the selections and compilations of texts and quotes are made by those in the employ of the church, or otherwise find their security in harmonising with the status quo. For this reason sometimes I feel there is a tendency, as in Jesus' day, to focus upon statements which favour the church structure, to the neglect of statements which speak of the conditional nature of God’s ownership of it. These statements, much as we may not like them, are there, too, and they have weight, too. (On the other hand, of course, save us from focussing upon this side of the picture, and minimizing the importance of the approving statements.)

Ellen White was called of God at the close of the 2300 day prophecy, to give guidance to and help establish the prophesied remnant who would prepare the world for Jesus’ second coming. She thought she was living in the time of the last generation before this event. But, not so. I believe in respect for the church structure to the degree possible. While we have been let down and disappointed at times, we yet see many talented and godly persons still in the structure. We are inspired by, greatly appreciate and need their witness. We must be organized for service. The outpouring of the latter rain will make the greatest ever demands upon the church structure. It is wonderful to see already the spirit of cooperation that is taking the gospel to places like Russia and China and other ends of the earth.

But, we have been warned that in the final events we can expect also that portions of the structure—even big ones—may do nothing but get in the way, even betray the flock in their faithles human efforts to “save the church” – or themselves from persecution.

I assuredly do not pretend to know all the answers, but is it not reasonable to conclude that just before the close of probation for the church and world, when the work of the last remnant church structure is nearly done, believers should be being prepared for the future by hearing a “present truth” emphasis upon church structure? Would this not in some important respects have to be different from the emphasis that was needed when the organization and structure of the remnant church was being set up?

[Johann]

As the 3ABN situation is being placed under the microscope, understandings about God's attitude to church structure and independent ministries are obviously part of the equation, part of the bank of knowledge that will affect attitudes and motivations in the judgment process. Our home is praying most earnestly that God will move to administer the right blend of justice and mercy to every person and entity concerned.

3ABN make is clear that they are not part of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Should we make it appear as if they are?

I love the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I just fear that thousands are going to be left clinging to the structure, thinking this was safely to be equated with clinging to Jesus.

Do you mean that Jesus was a stumbling block to many? Should he, then, have remained in heaven to avoid this?

Should 3ABN avoid cleansing because that might be a stumbling block to many?

[Noahswife]

I love the Seventh-day Adventist Church. I just fear that thousands are going to be left clinging to the structure, thinking this was safely to be equated with clinging to Jesus.

The Jews of Jesus’ day had been taught to look for triumph for their Jewish church organization, and deliverance from the Romans. When Jesus preached, “My kingdom is not of this world,” He disappointed the expectations of the majority of church members. Thousands turned away and ceased from following Him. Could similar false expectations lead us off course just before Jesus’ second coming?

Brick Step.....

Welcome to Black SDA......

Thank you for your post and thoughts. I look forward to some real discussion following your post.

The newbies continue to amaze and encourage me.

Thank you...

nw
C"i"

[SoulEspresso]

There are many in the church who would like to see our church government more congregational, with more power in the local congregation, with less finances leaving the local congregation. I have spoken with many ministers of other congregationally based denominations and they often envy our system of finance and government. Many have suffered much hardship at the hands of local church leaders who feel entitled to treat their pastor as a 'hired hand' to do their bidding. Of course many of our pastors have suffered at the hands of conference leadership.

I guess we gravitate towards what's happened in our own experience. Our system has definite strengths, but local empowerment certainly isn't one of them. It's a very top-down organization, the leaders tend to assume they know what's best for every church in every situation, and I believe the appearance of a democratically-run church is an illusion.

Again, this is my experience, which is limited, and it would be unfair to globalize it. But I do believe the general principles are correct.

I don't think Catholic Prelates trace their election to any democratic process involving lay constituency. Do these GC selection committee members? Or are they appointed by the Adventist pope?

No they're not appointed in the same way, but let's not pretend it's something other than a club. I'm not impugning their character, btw. I just don't think that the Adventist church constituency could put in a candidate for president without that committee's approval. They're the deciders. Not us. So, the beat goes on ...

I have worked long enough in conference work to not trust local church leaders anymore than conference leaders. (at least conference leaders are often well-educated, a process that minimizes pathology)

Your direct experience is probably more extensive than my own, but I would ten times trust the local leaders more than the conference--and I'm not impugning my local conference this time either! I just don't believe they know what's right for local contexts.

(I know, Judas was a college grad) You are right, spiritual pride is rampant in our church. I am constantly preaching and teaching against it. You would think that men who have been humiliated by incarceration would not be afflicted with it but you ought to see how strong it is in prison too.

Original sin ...

Are all the people who are going to be saved members of the Adventist church?
Are all the members of the Adventist church going to be saved?
Who, then, makes up the "true church"?

Even tho' I think you mean these as rhetorical questions, IMO, the answer to all three is "Only God Knows".

Are you saying we can't know we are saved? (1 John 5:11-13)

My point was this: logic dictates that we should not equate God's end-time people with those who are a part of any structure, even the Seventh-day Adventist Church which I love.

Based on fruits as per Matthew 7, it's obvious to me that not all Adventists are saved, not all non-Adventists are lost, and that in fact membership is a good deal less important than faithfulness to Christ. In fact, it fades into nothingness. IMO.

Now, I believe our message has never been more relevant, but we've promoted it as a part of our own identity and how everyone should be like us ... instead of as a part of Christ's reality and gifts of grace to us.

In the context of the 3ABN fiasco ... well ... I got hold of a copy of the latest 3ABN world, and it was clear that the principals involved were taking it upon themselves to "take the gospel to the entire world." Certainly television can be a part of that -- but to say "that's it" was out-and-out wrong.

What I mean is this: as long as we think we're "it"--be that Adventists or 3ABN donors--not only will we be harboring the sin of pride in our own hearts, we'll be keeping people from knowing Christ. If we want people to see Him, we'd better learn to get out of the way--kneeling, perhaps.



This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: May 23 2007, 12:04 PM

[princessdi]

I didn't realize the educational requirements for conferences officers were that different from pastors. In fact, I thought it was about the same, that is why the the pay is about the same(differeing only sightly between conferences depending on the region, cost of living, etc.). What educational requirements do conference official have that are not required of Pastors. No I do know that certain jobs such as teasurer might take some additional or specialized education.Sorry I know this is a bit

I have worked long enough in conference work to not trust local church leaders anymore than conference leaders. (at least conference leaders are often well-educated, a process that minimizes pathology)

[Voktar of Zargon]

I didn't realize the educational requirements for conferences officers were that different from pastors. In fact, I thought it was about the same, that is why the the pay is about the same(differeing only sightly between conferences depending on the region, cost of living, etc.). What educational requirements do conference official have that are not required of Pastors. No I do know that certain jobs such as teasurer might take some additional or specialized education.Sorry I know this is a bit

I'm sorry, when I was talking about local leadership I wasn't referring to pastors. I was talking about the rest of the local (lay)leaders who help to run the church. My experience is mostly in smaller churches where the educational level may be slightly less than in a larger church environment. I'm not an educational eliteist (after all, most of the apostles were illiterate fishermenn), I just know that navigating the waters of a lengthy educational process can help to weed out some psychological and spiritual pathology. When I went to seminary we had to take an MMPI.

[Artiste]

.

“...we may exercise sympathy unwisely and counteract, in our ignorance, reproof that is merited and timely...” Testimonies, Vol. 4, p. 66.

I agree with this!

[mozart]

I couldn't agree with you more.

I guess we gravitate towards what's happened in our own experience. Our system has definite strengths, but local empowerment certainly isn't one of them. It's a very top-down organization, the leaders tend to assume they know what's best for every church in every situation, and I believe the appearance of a democratically-run church is an illusion.

Again, this is my experience, which is limited, and it would be unfair to globalize it. But I do believe the general principles are correct.
No they're not appointed in the same way, but let's not pretend it's something other than a club. I'm not impugning their character, btw. I just don't think that the Adventist church constituency could put in a candidate for president without that committee's approval. They're the deciders. Not us. So, the beat goes on ...
Your direct experience is probably more extensive than my own, but I would ten times trust the local leaders more than the conference--and I'm not impugning my local conference this time either! I just don't believe they know what's right for local contexts.
Original sin ...
Are you saying we can't know we are saved? (1 John 5:11-13)

My point was this: logic dictates that we should not equate God's end-time people with those who are a part of any structure, even the Seventh-day Adventist Church which I love.

Based on fruits as per Matthew 7, it's obvious to me that not all Adventists are saved, not all non-Adventists are lost, and that in fact membership is a good deal less important than faithfulness to Christ. In fact, it fades into nothingness. IMO.

Now, I believe our message has never been more relevant, but we've promoted it as a part of our own identity and how everyone should be like us ... instead of as a part of Christ's reality and gifts of grace to us.

In the context of the 3ABN fiasco ... well ... I got hold of a copy of the latest 3ABN world, and it was clear that the principals involved were taking it upon themselves to "take the gospel to the entire world." Certainly television can be a part of that -- but to say "that's it" was out-and-out wrong.

What I mean is this: as long as we think we're "it"--be that Adventists or 3ABN donors--not only will we be harboring the sin of pride in our own hearts, we'll be keeping people from knowing Christ. If we want people to see Him, we'd better learn to get out of the way--kneeling, perhaps.

[Brick Step]

Brick Step. Thank you for the welcomes.

PB. “When we see blatant sin within one of our Christian organizations, we must confront it or become culpable for it as well.”

Johann (quoting Martin Luther King). “He who passively accepts evil is as much involved in it as he who helps to perpetrate it.”

Brick Step. Believe me I agree with the above two statements.

Brick Step. “I love the SDA Church. I just feel thousands are going to be left clinging to the structure, thinking this was safely to be equated with clinging to Jesus.”

Johann. Do you mean that Jesus was a stumbling block to many? Should he then have stayed in heaven to avoid this? Should 3ABN avoid cleansing because that might be a stumbling block to many?

Brick Step. Johann, I’m trying to understand your reaction. I should have italicized also the word “safely.” The text I had in mind was Matthew 12:6, where Jesus Himself told the priests of the church structure that He was “greater than the temple.” Obviously, when the church structure is obeying God, teaching the truth and taking up power and authority according to the boundaries prescribed in His Word, then to follow Jesus means to obey and support the church structure. But infallibility belongs to God alone. It is wrong to blindly follow Conference directives.

I’ve just about forgotten it all now, but I thought even the book ISSUES was shown to contain many errors of reporting.

In Nazi Germany (as somebody already quoted somewhere on this website) Conference officers directed that all those of Jewish descent should be disfellowshipped, and other church members should cut ties with them. So Seventh-day Adventists of Jewish descent were left defenceless and without friends, and sent to concentration camps where many died. It seems to me that in the judgment Jesus will point the involved to this happening, and will not excuse those whose only plea is, “The Conference made me do it.”

Please, I do not feel negative thoughts towards you, Johann, or to the obviously sincere and godly attempts by many others on this website to find and stand by the truth in regard to the divorce of Danny and Linda, and related issues. God bless and guide you all. My problem is that I have never been to 3ABN and have never met anyone who has worked at 3ABN. I feel that while it might be right for many on BSDA to speak strongly to their concerns, I need to move more slowly, for I simply cannot be or am not 100% sure of some facts. Also, we have had providences in our own experience which seem to caution us further to separate between the up front ministry of 3ABN over satellite TV, which is still blessing the souls of so many, and the behind-the-scenes (?) concerns with administration.

God must have good reason to allow this terrible scandal to break out like this. There are big lessons to be learned. I want to learn those lessons.

I am so looking forward to hearing that Linda has found a new nitch in life that is a happy and fulfilling one. God gave her that beautiful singing voice to be used in His service.

[Johann]

Brick Step. Thank you for the welcomes.


Please, I do not feel negative thoughts towards you, Johann, or to the obviously sincere and godly attempts by many others on this website to find and stand by the truth in regard to the divorce of Danny and Linda, and related issues.

God must have good reason to allow this terrible scandal to break out like this. There are big lessons to be learned. I want to learn those lessons.

I am so looking forward to hearing that Linda has found a new nitch in life that is a happy and fulfilling one. God gave her that beautiful singing voice to be used in His service.

Dear Brick Step,

I really like your reply. I did not for a moment have negative thoughts about you. I should have given you a warm welcome while I asked you some questions to give you the opportunity to explain further what you meant.

Linda told me recently that in her past it was only Danny who would do the preaching in churches while she was asked to have the Scripture reading and prayer. Now people are asking her to preach, and this is a new challenge to her. She is looking forward to meeting the people at Camp Meeting and elsewhere where she is presenting a message inspired by the Lord.

Blessings,

Johann

[inga]

Being your own boss can be difficult too though.
On the other hand I believe that some Adventists develop "independent" ministries (in the negative sense) because they do not want to answer to any authority - particularly church authority. Those with an egocentric or even sociopathic personality would of course be drawn to this advantage. I seem to remember Danny Sheltons reason that he gave for wanting to remain "independent" from the church was so that he could maintain a "prophetic" voice in the denomination. The implication was that 3ABN was holier than the church leadership and needed to remain in a sort of watchdog status in relation to church leadership.

What you have described of Danny's attitude seems rather typical of some self-supporting ministries, as they used to call themselves -- rather fittingly, in my view (supporting self rather than serving God, that is). The attitude of being specially called to superior ministry than the whole church is always a fruitful ground for producing Pharasaism and fanaticism.

In the case of 3ABN, it seems that all the worst scenarios came together.

Other independent ministries, are, of course truly supportive of the work of God, and they work closely with the church.

[inga]

i think that what i have always understood as ".....a falling away first...." does not pertain to those who i thought it did. i thought the "falling away" would be those leaving the faith, but now i think that the "falling away" IS the organizational church leaving the Faith. it seems so clear to me now that those that will stand to the end are those few who stay faithful to the truth; small groups scorned by the SDA (name copyrighted) church as we know it.

Mozart, that's precisely the kind of thinking that got 3ABN to the place where it is now -- the conviction that they are a special "small group" "who stay faithful to the truth" while the church "falls away." The money that's keeping 3ABN's misdeeds covered comes from folks with the same kind of mindset.

Do you really want to go there?