Proofs, Or Lack Thereof, A concern of causing false assumptions Options

[FineArt]

Psa 34:7 The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

The saints are sealed, do we need each other for prayer and encouragement....always, but at this time the saintly leaders of the organized church, will all be in the same boat......clinging to our only life support, Jesus Christ. Comunication will be through the angels. The Holy Spirit has been withdrawn.

- S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7--- REV14-----PG- 976

"When the Protestant churches shall unite with the secular power to sustain a false religion, for opposing which their ancestors endured the fiercest persecution; when the state shall use its power to enforce the decrees and sustain the institutions of the church--then will Protestant America have formed an image to the papacy, and there will be a national apostasy which will end only in national ruin" (STMarch 22, 1910).

- The Great Controversy----PG- 614

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous mustlive in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon
Jerusalem of old.

Leaning on the Promises.......

[PeacefulBe]

Psa 34:7 The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.

The saints are sealed, do we need each other for prayer and encouragement....always, but at this time the saintly leaders of the organized church, will all be in the same boat......clinging to our only life support, Jesus Christ. Comunication will be through the angels. The Holy Spirit has been withdrawn.

- S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7--- REV14-----PG- 976

"When the Protestant churches shall unite with the secular power to sustain a false religion, for opposing which their ancestors endured the fiercest persecution; when the state shall use its power to enforce the decrees and sustain the institutions of the church--then will Protestant America have formed an image to the papacy, and there will be a national apostasy which will end only in national ruin" (STMarch 22, 1910).

- The Great Controversy----PG- 614

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous mustlive in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon
Jerusalem of old.

Leaning on the Promises.......

FineArt,
Wonderful collection of statements!

I wonder if satellites will still be beaming signals around the world while we are in hiding and waiting for deliverance.....

[Voktar of Zargon]

Voktar, as always...thanks for your comments. Would you be willing to offer an explanation on why certain groups feel compelled to become "independent ministries" or "self-supporting?"

There are different types of self-supporting and independent ministries both positive and negative. I can't begin to give all the reasons that these develop.
The first truely self-supporting missionary in the New Testament sense was the apostle Paul. He decided to remain a tent-maker so that he could not be accused of ministering for gain or being a burden on the church. Some follow this example today.
The organized church obviously cannot do it all. Therefore Adventists must develop "independent/self supporting" (I use these terms here in the positive sense) ministries to help finish the world-wide work. There are unique missonary endeavors that must be done without direct support, or even official approval, of the church.
As a chaplain and a pastor I receive my wages from the State and from the Church. Therefore I am answerable to multiple entities. The taxpayers and tithe-payers, the state authorities and the church authorities. I actually have no less than 5 or 6 bosses in 4 different locations. I appreciate the advantages of owning one's own business. Being your own boss can be difficult too though.
On the other hand I believe that some Adventists develop "independent" ministries (in the negative sense) because they do not want to answer to any authority - particularly church authority. Those with an egocentric or even sociopathic personality would of course be drawn to this advantage. I seem to remember Danny Sheltons reason that he gave for wanting to remain "independent" from the church was so that he could maintain a "prophetic" voice in the denomination. The implication was that 3ABN was holier than the church leadership and needed to remain in a sort of watchdog status in relation to church leadership. I think in this case his independence has instead bred a pathetic voice. If 3ABN was more under the influence of organized church authority and audit, perhaps less corruption would have developed.

This post has been edited by Voktar of Zargon: May 21 2007, 09:10 PM

[Noahswife]

Speaking of false assumptions or other statements.......

A couple weeks ago I raised the question if anyone had heard about 3abn's return to sky angel as was announced at my mother's church the sabbath after the merger announcement.

I had dinner tonight with my parents and my mother brought up the fact she called 3abn today to find out what was happening in that regard. After all, it has been 4 weeks and they were told it WOULD BE in 3 weeks. She was transferred from the switchboard to a voicemail. She asked to return to the operator using input commands and never was answered again. Has anyone heard anything? Maybe we should all call tomorrow and compare answers?

I believe this weekend is 3abn campmeeting. Has anyone heard anything about any special announcements? Anyone going to be there?

nw
C"i"

[Fran]

Speaking of false assumptions or other statements.......

A couple weeks ago I raised the question if anyone had heard about 3abn's return to sky angel as was announced at my mother's church the sabbath after the merger announcement.

I had dinner tonight with my parents and my mother brought up the fact she called 3abn today to find out what was happening in that regard. After all, it has been 4 weeks and they were told it WOULD BE in 3 weeks. She was transferred from the switchboard to a voice mail. She asked to return to the operator using input commands and never was answered again. Has anyone heard anything? Maybe we should all call tomorrow and compare answers?

I believe this weekend is 3abn campmeeting. Has anyone heard anything about any special announcements? Anyone going to be there?

nw
C"i"

Could this action be contingent on the Amazing Facts Merger?

It has been longer than 3 weeks, and I have been looking.

Is this merger still on?

Silence on that front too?

[FineArt]

FineArt,
Wonderful collection of statements!

I wonder if satellites will still be beaming signals around the world while we are in hiding and waiting for deliverance.....

Yes i believe so.....why?, because we are told that life will go on as usual...."thief in the night" "they know not the Hour" and "at a time when they think not"....."Satan came as an angel of light and is evangelizing the world and telling the people that Sunday is the day of rest" Via satellites????? what do you think.??

[Voktar of Zargon]

At the same time, it's even more, um, beastly than the RC church. The only religious structure that is more organized is the LDS (Mormon) church. I don't think this is a positive; it disempowers the local church by sending money up and down the ladder (AU profs will tell you that most of the money is spent on the local level--not acknowledging that it comes with excessive control); and the documents that govern the organization are so arcane and difficult that people who aren't familiar with them are able to make very little sense of them.
There are many in the church who would like to see our church government more congregational, with more power in the local congregation, with less finances leaving the local congregation. I have spoken with many ministers of other congregationally based denominations and they often envy our system of finance and government. Many have suffered much hardship at the hands of local church leaders who feel entitled to treat their pastor as a 'hired hand' to do their bidding. Of course many of our pastors have suffered at the hands of conference leadership.

When it comes to electing the GC, for example, we have a "Committee to Select the President." College of Cardinals, anyone?
I don't think Catholic Prelates trace their election to any democratic process involving lay constituency. Do these GC selection committee members? Or are they appointed by the Adventist pope?

The reason that we have to be so organized and insular (the trademark on "Seventh-day Adventist" is an example; the fact that conferences and not congregations usually own the sanctuary buildings is another) is that 90% of the time (rhetorical emphasis, okay?) we make Adventists by appealing to spiritual pride.
I have worked long enough in conference work to not trust local church leaders anymore than conference leaders. (at least conference leaders are often well-educated, a process that minimizes pathology)(I know, Judas was a college grad) You are right, spiritual pride is rampant in our church. I am constantly preaching and teaching against it. You would think that men who have been humiliated by incarceration would not be afflicted with it but you ought to see how strong it is in prison too.

[mozart]

Are all the people who are going to be saved members of the Adventist church?
Are all the members of the Adventist church going to be saved?
Who, then, makes up the "true church"?

Even tho' I think you mean these as rhetorical questions, IMO, the answer to all three is "Only God Knows".

[ex3ABNemployee]

Could this action be contingent on the Amazing Facts Merger?

It has been longer than 3 weeks, and I have been looking.

Is this merger still on?

Silence on that front too?

Yes. I seem to remember Danny proudly stating that the merger would be national or even world news. I haven't seen a thing about it, and now even 3ABN is strangely silent about it. Trouble in paradise?

One must wonder.......

I believe this weekend is 3abn campmeeting. Has anyone heard anything about any special announcements? Anyone going to be there?

Actually, I was wondering how some strategically placed "Visit Save3ABN.com" signs would go over this weekend.

A few around town, a few along the highways toward Thompsonville....

[mozart]

OUCH !!!

Actually, I was wondering how some strategically placed "Visit Save3ABN.com" signs would go over this weekend.

A few around town, a few along the highways toward Thompsonville....

[Noahswife]

Actually, I was wondering how some strategically placed "Visit Save3ABN.com" signs would go over this weekend.

A few around town, a few along the highways toward Thompsonville....

I wonder how long they would be allowed to stay before being removed?

[Shepherdswife]

Yes. I seem to remember Danny proudly stating that the merger would be national or even world news. I haven't seen a thing about it, and now even 3ABN is strangely silent about it. Trouble in paradise?

On a somewhat related note...

I have a friend who is on staff at Weimar, who told me that the Weimar/AF merger is on hold for the time being, that the AF/3ABN merger has "temporarily preempted" the talks. That AF continues to express their interest in the Weimar merger, but that no one will commit to any specific time frame.

shepherdswife

[LaurenceD]

I wonder how long they would be allowed to stay before being removed?

Hey Nw...if he prepares a little in advance, he should be okay. He should do some research, like go to the city and/or county and see if there is a form to fill out notifying police of a peaceful demonstration and protest. And stay on a public ROW--keep of private property. Also, he might consider sending out a press release and invite the media...this is always effective. Also, he might hold the signs, rather than post them along the roads, and hand out a brochure with links to his favorite web sites--including the link to 3abn v. Dept of Rev.. The town people might even enjoy the links.

[LaurenceD]

There are different types of self-supporting and independent ministries both positive and negative. I can't begin to give all the reasons that these develop.
The first truely self-supporting missionary in the New Testament sense was the apostle Paul. He decided to remain a tent-maker so that he could not be accused of ministering for gain or being a burden on the church. Some follow this example today.
The organized church obviously cannot do it all. Therefore Adventists must develop "independent/self supporting" (I use these terms here in the positive sense) ministries to help finish the world-wide work. There are unique missonary endeavors that must be done without direct support, or even official approval, of the church.
As a chaplain and a pastor I receive my wages from the State and from the Church. Therefore I am answerable to multiple entities. The taxpayers and tithe-payers, the state authorities and the church authorities. I actually have no less than 5 or 6 bosses in 4 different locations. I appreciate the advantages of owning one's own business. Being your own boss can be difficult too though.
On the other hand I believe that some Adventists develop "independent" ministries (in the negative sense) because they do not want to answer to any authority - particularly church authority. Those with an egocentric or even sociopathic personality would of course be drawn to this advantage. I seem to remember Danny Sheltons reason that he gave for wanting to remain "independent" from the church was so that he could maintain a "prophetic" voice in the denomination. The implication was that 3ABN was holier than the church leadership and needed to remain in a sort of watchdog status in relation to church leadership. I think in this case his independence has instead bred a pathetic voice. If 3ABN was more under the influence of organized church authority and audit, perhaps less corruption would have developed.

I wonder if there is a distinction between "independent" and "self-supporting" ministries. If Paul was truely self-supporting, does this imply he would have turned down donations?

My experience tells me that the self-supporting type folks often have a disagreement with establishment--in several areas including, but not limited to, authority, monitoring, finance, scheduling, and perhaps doctrine. With regards to scheduling, this might include the rate and methods of finishing "the work."

The reason I ask is because if, for example, 3abn claims to have NO disagreements, but to be part of the ship (rather than a friendship or part of a fleet), why so independent? I assume it's for several of the reasons I listed above...but not sure. True independent ministries operate above reproach in order to diminish the appearance of separation, or give cause for the public to be thinking of a possible schism. I'm guessing that finance and authority is the big one here, but not sure. Campmeetings, separate from the church, can often be suspect of fundamental disagreements, but not always.

[YogusBearus]

Actually, I was wondering how some strategically placed "Visit Save3ABN.com" signs would go over this weekend.

A few around town, a few along the highways toward Thompsonville....

Interesting thought Duane. Someone asked me the other day to send them a link to what I was seeing on the 3abn mess. I thought long and hard before sending them to the save3abn.com site as quite frankly it's embarrassing. If I didn't think they could stand to wade through the inflammatory garbage there to find the 10% of content that was meaningful, I would not have provided the link.



I’m thinking there are many that will never get past the gratuitous inferences on the save3abn site to see the real issues with 3abn.