Thursday Night "live" 2-15-07, Fact or Fiction? Options

[fallible humanbe...]

SE,

Your tone is appreciated, there is a calmness to your response, thank you.

. . . Well, since a lot of that donated money went to buy horses and a private jet, . . .

One of the things that seems so out of whack in all of this on BSDA are the comments such as the one you made here. Yes, it is true Danny has horses, no one denys this fact. What no one has been able to offer evidence to is that Danny used funds from 3ABN's budget to purchase these horses. Now, it might be argued from a technical aspect that since Danny is paid his salary by 3ABN that he then bought them with 3ABN money. Of course anyone can see that is a ridiculous argument. Unless someone can show an accounting, or receipt, there is no proof whatsoever that Danny purchased his horses with funds from 3ABN coffers that were intended to sustain the ministry.

Secondly, the plane, as has been stated on BSDA many times, is leased and is not owned by 3ABN much less Danny himself. I would be curious to find out how many ministries (of all denominations) own or lease a jet that is used by the leaders of that ministry. Is it that far fetched an idea? There is also the fact that many times donations are made by individuals that are provided with specific requirements. For instance, on last nights program it was pointed out that an individual donated 60K dollars and required that it be used for community projects. Every large organization within a community does this kind of thing - and I believe it is even more appropriate for a ministry of the Adventist church to do this.

The "claim" that Danny bought horses with 3ABN money has been floating around so long that it has become understood as "fact" without one shred of evidence to support it. This is what so many of us on the other side decry.

As far as "unproven and unfounded," again--read here and at save3abn.com. f you choose not to believe, that's up to you, but if you follow the train of logic you can see why some of us believe there's a good cause to believe there are real problems--sins--at 3ABN that need to go away permanently.

Am I to understand then, that because something appears here and/or on save3abn.com that it is absolute truth, verified, based on strong factual evidence, and has been corroborated by multiple individuals?

It isn't a matter of believing. It is a matter of reading, then seeking the other side of the story. Then weighing in the balance the fruits of actions. Many keep saying look at the fruits. When one does that they see one side that has claimed they will not do anything to make public the foundations for their decision - not because it doesn't exist, but because they don't want others to suffer the public humiliation and pain that would result. Yes, I know that yesterday Linda asked for the evidence to be released in her preemptive letter. I would look the leaders of 3ABN in the eye today and tell them to go ahead and heed her request. She will bear the responsibility for the results of that and if she is ready, willing and able to do so - then by all means do so (and I believe they will as part of the legal actions that will ensue).

You have said you don't think there are many who would like to see 3ABN disappear. What then are we to do with the calls to stop giving, to petition local providers to remove 3ABN from their lineups and most egregiously these comments from Mr. Galion A. Joy himself posted on the save3an site?

"Will require very aggressive litigation team but assets of the ministry, it's founder and directors are substantial." (LINK)

"In my experience, strong possibility of recovery from jury demand and believe we have documentary foundation for punitive damages" (LINK)

So the very site that claims it exists to "save" the ministry for God has petitioned a high power attorney to assist in draining it of its financial resources. This along with other comments made here and on Gailon's site indicate that there are a significant number who do desire to see 3ABN disappear. Their desire is to take a ministry that has reached tens of thousands of people with the love of God and the message of His soon return and the joy that each one of us can be carried away in the clouds - and shut it down.

So was it the high road for Danny to destroy Linda's reputation without proving his accusations? Well, I guess people see things differently.

This is true, many of us do see things differently. There are those who do not see Linda's spin on things as being honest or forthright. I am curious, what would you have 3ABN and Danny do? Individuals asked what happened and 3ABN responded in the best way they felt they could. If there is even a glimmer of truth to the accusations of unfaithful behavior on her part, if there is even one piece of evidence that proves the claims of infidelity, would you rather have 3ABN make that public and permanently end her opportunities to minister? That isn't the way God would handle it. The woman at the well for instance was brought to the realization of her nature and God then sent her on her way to minister to those in her life. He did that over and over again. 3ABN by not releasing their evidence to the wolves did just that, allowed Linda to move on, make her life decisions and build a ministry that she could reach others through.

I know of the cries made here that she has been kept from being able to appear in certain churches but haven't seen any evidence that substantiates this - only the "I heard", "Someone told me", or "It was brought to my attention" as a means to found the accusations. Clay challenged me to ask my pastor if Linda could appear at our church. I will be asking my pastor this weekend. My gut reaction is that he will not say no. He may leave it to the church board to decide, but he will not say no. Linda is freely making the rounds in many places she is not being kept from building a ministry.

The "small group" chose this path that everyone involved is on at this point. They have pushed and demanded and claimed that only their rules will be played by. 3ABN has made the decision to, to some degree, go ahead and play by those rules set forth by the "small group" - thus last nights program and the coming actions it hinted toward. For those who want the facts laid out on the table it seems as if that day is coming - but will you be open minded enough to accept the truth when it is revealed?

- FHB

This post has been edited by fallible humanbeing: Feb 16 2007, 08:25 AM

[Ex3ABNViewer]

I did not watch last nights show. Can someone tell me what exactly was said about Tommy?

[awesumtenor]

I did not watch last nights show. Can someone tell me what exactly was said about Tommy?

Basically he said that while he could not remember the exact nature of the things alleged of Tommy, they were lies and left it there. He addressed those things in no specific detail.

In His service,
Mr. J

[ex3ABNemployee]

I did not watch last nights show. Can someone tell me what exactly was said about Tommy?

Yes, I'd be interested to know that as well. In fact, I'd love to see a video of the broadcast if someone would be so inclined to record it.

[Seraphim7]

Aletheia, you are right. Conscience has to be our guide. The big problem that I am facing is summarized in James 3:11 where James asks, "Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?"

I believe that many souls have been saved through the work of 3ABN, and I want that to continue. And yet we see a leader who, on one hand appears to be saving souls and yet on the other hand appears to have a very dark side.

Many of us fully agree with allowing the conscience be ones guide. And, your point about James 3:11 is on the money. Also, while it is true that God can use anything, (didn't He say He can make the rocks cry out?), as a "tool" to draw men and women to Him, that does not mean the "tool" being used has any ability to save souls.

With that said, it is wise to keep in mind that neither 3ABN, which is a means to an end, nor any man connected to that means is able to save himself, much less anyone else. It is just a thought.

This post has been edited by seraph|m: Feb 16 2007, 08:50 AM

[awesumtenor]

The truth is if the concern was only sins, and preserving the ministry then it would have been handled biblically and privately.

Danny and his lackeys set this whole thing in motion because in trying to justify dumping Linda for Brandy, he and they did not handle things either biblically or privately.

Publishing alleged sins and grievous wrongs to the world is not how our Church was told to handle things. Of course it hurts the ministry. Scandal always does.

There's a book I'd like you to consider reading that has all manner of 'sins and grievous wrongs' of those who were part of the people of God published for the world to see... it's called the bible.

Calling for people to stop sending donations, and warning them about doing so based on unproven and unfounded accusations, calling stations and cable companies, and asking them to take 3ABN off, or show Hope instead, is not how to save the ministry, it is how you destroy it.

Misusing donated funds, utilizing illegal and unethical labor practices and creating a hostile work environment through intimidation and maintaining a lack of operational transparency is how you destroy it quicker...

I understand you are saying the purpose as far as you are concerned is to bring about change that you see needs to be made, bUT Jesus said do it another way, Period. Neither He or the apostles did this with the Scribes or Pharisees or the Jewish religion , they did not try to bring down or force change. Nor did our Adventist Pioneers ever engage in such when dealing with error and sin.

Ye do err, knowing neither the scriptures nor the power of God...

God and his people don't use coersion or attempt to force their will on others, they rebuke and reprove and let the holy spirit do the convicting. Satan attempts to force the conscience and will, and those deceived by him do as well.

You are right... which means the side that rationalizes adultery, responds to allegations of molestation by questioning the sexual preference of the victim, threatens lawsuits and carpet bombs this forum with self-righteous indignation rather than verifiable fact is NOT on God's side...

And good intentions can NEVER justify wrong acts.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. The ends do not justify the means.

All this is antichrist methods and tactics, you see them used for 1260 years during the dark ages, and they are alive and well today.

I understood what Murray said last night. Satan uses any means whatsoever, as he is not limitted by the law of love in what he can do in this spiritual War. God and his people take the higher road and so don't have as much resources at their disposal (the bottom line however is God wins in the end for his ways are right)

You remember this the next time you are inclined to malign Linda or rationalize Tommy's molestation issues or try to discredit someone by doing your level best to drag them through the muck and mire...

In His service,
Mr. J

This post has been edited by awesumtenor: Feb 16 2007, 08:54 AM

[Aletheia]

Basically he said that while he could not remember the exact nature of the things alleged of Tommy, they were lies and left it there. He addressed those things in no specific detail.

In His service,
Mr. J

That is false. All Danny said was that terrible allegations had been made against his brother Tommy. Or something similar. That was all.

Later it was stated tht all the accusations against 3ABN are false.

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Feb 16 2007, 09:13 AM

[Clay]

That is false. All Danny said was that terrible allegations had been made against his brother Tommy. Or something similar. That was all.

Later it was stated tht all the accusations against 3ABN are false.

which is a lie.... not all the accusations are a lie.... they do have a jet plane.... they did employ Tommy Shelton who has a history of molestation, they did railroad Linda with no proof seen by anyone impartial.... in fact not even seen by her.....

Danny did say that the allegations against his brother were terrible, and that they were criminal.... if the allegations are correct, then his brother is the criminal....

you keep drinking that kool-aid...

[icedragon]

I want 3abn to be successful, but last night was scary. It was nothing but propangda nothing was gained by 3abn he only made more people aware of the problem. It looks like BSDA is begining to have an impact.

I don't understand why Danny just can't tell us his side of the Story. The only reason I figure is that he is guilty of the charges against him.

[Aletheia]

Dan offered to step down, then immediately changed his mind and said there was no sense in doing that because than they would ask that Mollie be removed, than Walt Thompson and finally the Board. Of course I agree with the removal of those he mentioned, beginning with Danny, but unfortunately his brief offer to step down was so quickly rescinded. And YADA, YADA, YADA....

Actually the truth is he said he had offered to step down -past tense. But clarified that wouldn't solve the problem now, and it wan't about him, as the "small group" was intent on everyone else including the entire board stepping down as well, and installing a new board etc (with who leading?) You yourself just confirmed what he said. "Of course I agree with the removal of those he mentioned"

Also those I know, who know Danny call him "Danny" not "Dan". I'm only aware of one person who always did so....

There is one specific area I would like to address: donations. Danny has been claiming all along that donations at 3ABN have been increasing and that anything that has been written on the internet that contradicts that is a lie. Now, tonight be admits that donations are down, and in true 3ABN beg-a-thon style encourages the faithful to open up there pocketbooks wider and make up the slack of those who have quit giving. So taking all of this in to consideration, WHO HAS REALLY BEEN LYING ABOUT THE DONATION SITUATION AT 3ABN? Has "The Man" himself just vindicated the opposition with his own statements?..
Sister

Fact: What was said was 3ABN has been doing better the last couple of years, and last year they did recieve more than ever, to expand and spread the ministry and the gospel, BUT during the past few months due to the increasing attacks and accusations, donations and funding have dropped.


What was also said, and it makes sense, is the way to fight the destruction of 3ABN and help, is to show your support, financially, as prayer warriors and by actions. Make donations, call your local stations and cable companies and thank them for broadcasting 3ABN, or if it's not available ask that it be included.

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Feb 16 2007, 09:41 AM

[awesumtenor]

Also those I know, who know Danny call him "Danny" not "Dan". I'm only aware of one person who always did so....

Cindy, sister isn't Linda.

Deal with it.

In His service,
Mr. J

[SoulEspresso]

Greetings!

There's a lot here to respond to. If you feel I'm dodging, please let me know. I'll try to hit the major points.

A lot of what we have on the Internet, by its very nature, is hearsay--which I mean in a legal sense. One person says one thing, another says another--which is *legally* correct, in a court of law, has to be decided in that place. Until then which side any of us believes ought to depend on the evidence and credibility of the sources rather than a priori likes and dislikes of 3ABN.

I find the people who post here, that work or have worked at 3ABN, to be more credible than their detractors and the snipers who come after them on the boards.

Yes, it is true Danny has horses, no one denys this fact. What no one has been able to offer evidence to is that Danny used funds from 3ABN's budget to purchase these horses. Now, it might be argued from a technical aspect that since Danny is paid his salary by 3ABN that he then bought them with 3ABN money. Of course anyone can see that is a ridiculous argument. Unless someone can show an accounting, or receipt, there is no proof whatsoever that Danny purchased his horses with funds from 3ABN coffers that were intended to sustain the ministry.

There is no proof that he didn't, is there? Any idea how much it costs to own a horse, annually? This is a publically available general fact. If someone gave him the horses, did they also agree to pay for upkeep? It's possible, I know people do this for people in ministry.

Secondly, the plane, as has been stated on BSDA many times, is leased and is not owned by 3ABN much less Danny himself. I would be curious to find out how many ministries (of all denominations) own or lease a jet that is used by the leaders of that ministry. Is it that far fetched an idea?

Nobody working for the Adventist church that I know of leases a plane for their denominational travel, unless it's geographically necessary (Alaska for example)--and that's not usually a jet. Leasing is certainly cheaper than owning, but that doesn't make it cheap--not to mention hangar space, the pay of the pilots, fuel costs (!) ... denominational workers generally fly on commercial jets for a reason: it's more responsible use of God's money.

Am I to understand then, that because something appears here and/or on save3abn.com that it is absolute truth, verified, based on strong factual evidence, and has been corroborated by multiple individuals?

It's (in a legal sense) hearsay, but which witnesses are credible depends on this:

It isn't a matter of believing. It is a matter of reading, then seeking the other side of the story. Then weighing in the balance the fruits of actions. Many keep saying look at the fruits.

Exactly. I've read a lot on here, and I think you probably have too because I saw your name a lot when I first joined. If we come to different conclusions, that's okay as long as we can disagree agreeably.

I'm not pleased with the fruit I see at 3ABN. In other words, the word of those opposed to the current leadership at the channel is more coherent and believable than that of its defenders.

When one does that they see one side that has claimed they will not do anything to make public the foundations for their decision - not because it doesn't exist, but because they don't want others to suffer the public humiliation and pain that would result. Yes, I know that yesterday Linda asked for the evidence to be released in her preemptive letter. I would look the leaders of 3ABN in the eye today and tell them to go ahead and heed her request. She will bear the responsibility for the results of that and if she is ready, willing and able to do so - then by all means do so (and I believe they will as part of the legal actions that will ensue).

Let it be published, then. We definitely agree on that. Linda apparently thinks she has nothing to lose. I'd agree. Her reputation will eventually rebound, but it can't get any worse.

You have said you don't think there are many who would like to see 3ABN disappear. What then are we to do with the calls to stop giving, to petition local providers to remove 3ABN from their lineups and most egregiously these comments from Mr. Galion A. Joy himself posted on the save3an site?

"Will require very aggressive litigation team but assets of the ministry, it's founder and directors are substantial." (LINK)

"In my experience, strong possibility of recovery from jury demand and believe we have documentary foundation for punitive damages" (LINK)

So the very site that claims it exists to "save" the ministry for God has petitioned a high power attorney to assist in draining it of its financial resources. This along with other comments made here and on Gailon's site indicate that there are a significant number who do desire to see 3ABN disappear. Their desire is to take a ministry that has reached tens of thousands of people with the love of God and the message of His soon return and the joy that each one of us can be carried away in the clouds - and shut it down.

I can't recall saying that myself. I do believe some people want 3ABN to go away. I myself have never liked the channel; I've always considered the programming cheesy, and if I were a spiritual seeker I would keep flipping until I got something that was more, well, uh, well-done. I conceed they've gotten better over the years.

Of course I don't speak for everyone on these boards, but I specifically don't want 3ABN to go out like this because people I care about will be hurt if it implodes. I've said repeatedly I don't want to believe these terrible accusations, but I do! Frankly the accusers' side has more credibility and coherence than 3ABN's side. It's been said, "Their damage control does more damage than it controls."

Wanting to see the leadership and board of 3ABN all changed is not the same as wanting 3ABN to go away.

The leadership of 3ABN has not responded to the guidelines set forth in scripture for resolution in the civil matters--hence the actions of the "small group."

This is true, many of us do see things differently. There are those who do not see Linda's spin on things as being honest or forthright. I am curious, what would you have 3ABN and Danny do?

I've posted elsewhere that Danny, Dr. Thompsen, the board, John Lomacang, and Shelley Quinn should all step down and invite a free and open inquiry to all allegations. If they've got nothing to hide, it will become clear soon enough.

I'm really tired of this, "Don't attack the Lord's anointed," and, "Disagreeing with God's chosen leader brings disaster," and, "This is the Lord's ministry and we're going to move forward." Jeremiah 7:4 comes to mind.

Individuals asked what happened and 3ABN responded in the best way they felt they could. If there is even a glimmer of truth to the accusations of unfaithful behavior on her part, if there is even one piece of evidence that proves the claims of infidelity, would you rather have 3ABN make that public and permanently end her opportunities to minister? That isn't the way God would handle it. The woman at the well for instance was brought to the realization of her nature and God then sent her on her way to minister to those in her life. He did that over and over again. 3ABN by not releasing their evidence to the wolves did just that, allowed Linda to move on, make her life decisions and build a ministry that she could reach others through.

This is where I'm tempted to anger, FHB. It was 3ABN that accused Linda in the first place. This is public record, it's not hearsay in any sense. They didn't release evidence to the wolves--they released allegations to the public.

Anyway, proof of adultery doesn't mean the end of ministry. Sandy Patty showed us that.

The "small group" chose this path that everyone involved is on at this point. They have pushed and demanded and claimed that only their rules will be played by. 3ABN has made the decision to, to some degree, go ahead and play by those rules set forth by the "small group" - thus last nights program and the coming actions it hinted toward. For those who want the facts laid out on the table it seems as if that day is coming - but will you be open minded enough to accept the truth when it is revealed?

Sure. Will you?

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: Feb 18 2007, 01:32 AM

[awesumtenor]

That is false. All Danny said was that terrible allegations had been made against his brother Tommy. Or something similar. That was all.

Later it was stated tht all the accusations against 3ABN are false.

You really should see someone about that selective hearing of yours, Cindy...

In His service,
Mr. J

[erik]

FHB,



The comparing linda to the women at the well is at best misleading, for starters that lady at 5 husbands, and was living with some other guy.

Linda has been married twice, and is now living alone.

Secondly Jesus lead her to salvation, from what is known at this time linda is been lead to salavtion by that same jesus.


Erik

[Voktar of Zargon]

I really believe that if it's the Lord's work Danny & Co are about, they would have stepped aside, let the ministry to someone else, and faced the music until all the notes had finished playing--until the fat lady was finished. If they had, this could have been handled privately, in the spirit of Matthew 18 and the rest of Christ's teachings, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

This really is the bottom line. Even if Danny & C. are innocent, for the sake of God's cause they should have stepped aside long ago to prevent injury to God's work. Of course human nature is such that no one wants to leave what they have worked so long and hard to build. No one wants to face the fearful unknown of unemployment etc. If it comes down to a question of God's cause versus our cause though, every Christian must decide for God. Every Christian must trust that God will defend them and vindicate them and refuse to take up arms in a battle that will only hinder God's work and not advance it. To divorce your spouse and re-marry while all the issues surronding these actions are still in question should prohibit someone from holding church office, let alone leadership of a worldwide/high-profile ministry. Being under the cloud of unresolved sexual abuse charges should likewise prohibit the holding of a leadership position.
Unfortunately, in the case of a television ministry the personalities become equated with the ministry. There is an inordinate emphasis on personalities. It can even develop into a "personality cult" - especially if the leaders take on "annointed, chosen of God, prophetic" status. The temptation is for the personalities to think that the ministry could no longer exist without them. Whenever we think that God's work cannot continue without us we are engaging in righteousness by works.