Definition Of Molestation, Penetration, Fondling, and Forced Sexual Viewing Options

[PeacefulBe]

If Tommy has done such things and has not repented and ceased, and if Danny knowing such put him into a high position of authority within a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, a ministry that claims to be preaching the three angels' messages undiluted, including, "Here is the patience of the saints. Here are they that keep the commandments of God," then I think it is our business.

Romans 3:23 says: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God


The only perfection we can have is through the Righteousness of Christ and His power to cleanse and change our hearts as we stay focused and connected to Him. However, I do agree with you that anyone who is in a position of leadership in a supporting ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church should not be breaking any of the commandments, including the one that points to the importance of sexual purity and fidelity. And anyone who puts a person into a position of leadership in such a ministry, fully knowing that they have abused their power as a pastor and have betrayed and preyed on youthful trust, does not belong in leadership, at least until any such situation is made right.

This post has been edited by PeacefullyBewildered: May 18 2007, 01:14 PM

[Pickle]

God extends forgiveness to those who confess, repent, and seek to make restitution. We must do the same, even to the point of allowing people like Peter to feed the sheep and lambs again. We must be as long-suffering toward others as we would want them to be toward us.

Yet since God has His limits, we must too.

[PeacefulBe]

Point taken and, well said.

We can only assume that those in a position to make things right have considered that they have placed ALL the members of the church body at risk of being painted with the same brush of distasteful behavior as the actual culprits of said behavior. It does not matter that this one person does not represent the Adventist church in name. The fact that he held a prominent position among those who claim to represent the church is what will be remembered by the majority.

The credibility of every congregation and each member, whether directly associated with this mess, or not, will be called into question because the powers that be will be seen as turning a blind eye to it for so long. This makes me wonder, do the powers that be really care?

AMEN. Consenting adults or not sin is sin. And their very public and private behavior will have an affect on EVERY Seventh day Adventist ministry, whether folks are willing to believe it or not.

Great points Sera! And as I referred to in my last post, a person practicing homosexual sin or predatory sexual behavior has no place holding a position of leadership in a supporting ministry of the SDA Church. My main point in my previous post was to differentiate between homosexual behavior that separates man from God and predatory sexual abuse that creates victims in the process. Plus, it has been discussed before that a male sexual predator who victimizes young males is not necessarily a homosexual.

[Pickle]

Maybe I said this before, but a sociologist here told me that there are folks who want to make pedophilia an orientation, the first step toward acceptance.

Nothing like consistency, even if it is dead wrong.

[SoulEspresso]

Maybe I said this before, but a sociologist here told me that there are folks who want to make pedophilia an orientation, the first step toward acceptance.

Nothing like consistency, even if it is dead wrong.

Maybe some will make kleptomania an orientation? How far is the culture willing to go with this?

I read recently that male sexuality in particular is polymorphous--meaning it can be shaped, even though for some with deviant "orientations" it's very difficult. Nobody is born a pedophile.

But if pedophilia becomes an orientation, I think the murder rate will go up.

This post has been edited by SoulEspresso: May 18 2007, 05:01 PM

[Skyhook]

But if pedophilia becomes an orientation, I think the murder rate will go up.

Soul, you may not be far off on this one. There was a case that demonstrates this several years ago (in the 80s) in Tuolumne county California in the little town of Toulumne a hearing was taking place in a little storefront that was used as a courtroom. The case concerned the molestation of an early teen boy by a man in his 30s I believe. The accused man was described as turning to look at the boy and his mother with a smirk on his face. The mother's sister who was sitting beside her had placed a handgun on the table in front of the mother who promptly picked it up and shot the defendant, killing him.

In Toulmne county a permit to carry concealed weapons could be had for the asking, and I have heard that a large number of people were "packing," including a lot of women, so it wasn't unusual for there to be a weapon handy.

An irony of the case was that same week there was an article in the paper telling of the release from prison of a man who had been convicted in Tuolomne county of sexually abusing his 4 year old daughter. He was released after winning his appeal. The appeal was granted because the mother, under questioning had told the court that she had left her husband and went to a safe house after her husband had apparantly deliberately ran over thier son who was a toddler. This happened after a long series of questionable injury accidents involving thier pets and children. The appeal court ruled that this was innadmissble testimony and released him after he had served 3 years of a 6 year sentance. The DA decided not to re-try the case. The man is currently listed on California's list of sex offenders as not having reported for the past few years. Whereabouts unknown.
I know about this case because the mother is my youngest daughter, and the children are my grandkids. I spotted this guy as a sociopath by the second time I met him.

[PeacefulBe]

Maybe some will make kleptomania an orientation? How far is the culture willing to go with this?

I read recently that male sexuality in particular is polymorphous--meaning it can be shaped, even though for some with deviant "orientations" it's very difficult. Nobody is born a pedophile.

But if pedophilia becomes an orientation, I think the murder rate will go up.

SE,
The world may just get bad enough to allow pedophilia to become an orientation. If and when it does, I think the heavens will part quite quickly and Jesus will return because the cup of iniquity would, at that point, HAVE to be completely full!

Soul, you may not be far off on this one. There was a case that demonstrates this several years ago (in the 80s) in Tuolumne county California in the little town of Toulumne a hearing was taking place in a little storefront that was used as a courtroom. The case concerned the molestation of an early teen boy by a man in his 30s I believe. The accused man was described as turning to look at the boy and his mother with a smirk on his face. The mother's sister who was sitting beside her had placed a handgun on the table in front of the mother who promptly picked it up and shot the defendant, killing him.

In Toulmne county a permit to carry concealed weapons could be had for the asking, and I have heard that a large number of people were "packing," including a lot of women, so it wasn't unusual for there to be a weapon handy.

An irony of the case was that same week there was an article in the paper telling of the release from prison of a man who had been convicted in Tuolomne county of sexually abusing his 4 year old daughter. He was released after winning his appeal. The appeal was granted because the mother, under questioning had told the court that she had left her husband and went to a safe house after her husband had apparantly deliberately ran over thier son who was a toddler. This happened after a long series of questionable injury accidents involving thier pets and children. The appeal court ruled that this was innadmissble testimony and released him after he had served 3 years of a 6 year sentance. The DA decided not to re-try the case. The man is currently listed on California's list of sex offenders as not having reported for the past few years. Whereabouts unknown.
I know about this case because the mother is my youngest daughter, and the children are my grandkids. I spotted this guy as a sociopath by the second time I met him.

Skyhook,
I think we all need to pray for you and your daughter and family! What a heart-wrenching experience.

[mozart]

thanks PB, i understand what you mean but my point was, his open sin should not have been ignored, covered up or minimized. yes we are all sinners but God did make it a point to call some sin "an abomination". He was specific on some. Why is that?

Plus, it has been discussed before that a male sexual predator who victimizes young males is not necessarily a homosexual.

i guess i missed that thread. if this is so, then what would one who does these abominations be? and who determines that? can you clarify for me or point me in the right direction, please?

Maybe I said this before, but a sociologist here told me that there are folks who want to make pedophilia an orientation, the first step toward acceptance.

Nothing like consistency, even if it is dead wrong.

that's like that shrink that said "Road Rage is a Syndrome". there's an excuse for everything i guess. where's that puking smiley? guezz owl jiss bang me ade!

This post has been edited by mozart: May 18 2007, 09:45 PM

[Skyhook]

Skyhook,
I think we all need to pray for you and your daughter and family! What a heart-wrenching experience.

Thank you Mozart. I apreciate that.

[Ralph]

I spotted this guy as a sociopath by the second time I met him.

What were the things that helped you spot him as a sociopath?

[Skyhook]

What were the things that helped you spot him as a sociopath?

That is a little hard to explain, I have been around quite a few. He was very engratiating almost to the point of obsequiousness. He had been introduced to my daughter by his neice who was a classmate of my daughter. My daughter had just graduated from high school and was very naive. He lived in a different town. While he was dating my daughter, I learned from my older daughter that he already had a young wife and a baby and if I recall correctly, didn't have a regular job. Some times young guys like that can pull it together and do something with thier life. This guy never did.

I have to admit I was no prize when I was young. In the Autobiography of Malcolm X he said that if anyone came to his home to see his daughter looking like he did as a teenager, he would have run him off in a flash. I can really relate to that, but when Jesus came into my life, it changed everything and put me on a better road. Otherwise, I had a very good chance of ending up like some of my friends from my late teen years--on heroin, in prison or dead.

This post has been edited by Skyhook: May 18 2007, 11:13 PM

[Observer]

Great points Sera! And as I referred to in my last post, a person practicing homosexual sin or predatory sexual behavior has no place holding a position of leadership in a supporting ministry of the SDA Church. My main point in my previous post was to differentiate between homosexual behavior that separates man from God and predatory sexual abuse that creates victims in the process. Plus, it has been discussed before that a male sexual predator who victimizes young males is not necessarily a homosexual.

Comments on several points, by several people:

The North American Man Boy Love Association (NAMBA) has the goal of making sex between male adults and male minors acceptable to society, or at least legal.

Forgiveness is an importat Christian value. That does not mean that one who has demonstrated a weakness in a specific area should be exposed to that area. If I steal money from the one who employees me, I do not need to be returned to my position to demonstrate forgiveness. One who commits a sexual sin does not need to be placed in a position where the opportunity to commit tht sexual sin exists. e.g. Do not place a child molester in a position to care for children.

Whether one agrees with the definations or not, standard psychiatric definations of homosexuality and pedophelia differ. A homosexuall is not automatically one who molests same-sex children. Just as a heterosexual is not automaticly one who is sexually attracted to children of the same gender.

The sexual attraction to adults is quite different from the sexual attraction to children.

NOTE: I am aware of the issues of power which are commonly involved in sexual misconduct issues. I am simply not discussing them in this comment.

[PeacefulBe]

NAMBLA held a march in San Francisco some years back attempting to make a case for their cause. It didn't go over well. They got onto the news so we all got to see their lecherous faces.

As sick as some parts of society are, I believe it will take a long time before men like this will infect opinion enough to make such a behavior acceptable. Of course, with the growing number of dysfunctional family systems that conceal and protect sexual abusers out of a desperately misplaced loyalty, it won't be a surprise when damaged thinking permeates society so deeply that behavior such as this will become "normal".

[Clay]

NAMBLA held a march in San Francisco some years back attempting to make a case for their cause. It didn't go over well. They got onto the news so we all got to see their lecherous faces.

As sick as some parts of society are, I believe it will take a long time before men like this will infect opinion enough to make such a behavior acceptable. Of course, with the growing number of dysfunctional family systems that conceal and protect sexual abusers out of a desperately misplaced loyalty, it won't be a surprise when damaged thinking permeates society so deeply that behavior such as this will become "normal".

a couple of observations.... all families no matter how perfect they perceive themselves are dysfunctional.... and they are dysfunctional because of sin... so none of us need throw stones.... in fact I suspect that all of us have relatives who could make the stuff shown on Jerry Springer look tame.... and IF we don't have relatives, then we could very well be the ones who could easily appear on Springer.....

Secondly... it is apparent that things have not gotten as bad as they were prior to Sodom and Gomorrah or prior to the Flood... if things were that bad, then God would intervene as He did then I would think.....

Lastly, because this particular issue tends to be more visible people often target it.... but let's not forget, pride, arrogance, indifference, lack of compassion are also things that God disapproves....

[Fran]

a couple of observations.... all families no matter how perfect they perceive themselves are dysfunctional....

Clay;

Didn't you promise not to talk about me & my family?