Can One Defy The 3abn Board & Get Away With It?, Linda, Tommy, Danny, & Brandy Options

[lookin4truth]

First, Bob doesn't get justified or condemned by what others did or did not do. Bob is accountable for what Bob says and does.

Second, What have I ignored? claims without proof, like this? Multiple times? Why don't you cite an example, just one of someone, anyone, in your camp following the three steps in Matt 18, and it coming to nought?

I asked this before, and despite their same exact claims about this, neither Inga or johann, would or could tell me how this was done.

Aletheia, Bystander, WWJD,

I posted the following to Lee. She posted to me, telling me to give Aletheia a break, even though Aletheia and I had already posted very polite messages to one another.

She has chosen not to answer me on this issue, so I was hoping one of you would answer. I think it is very important, especially after Aletheia posted today, "First, Bob doesn't get justified or condemned by what others did or did not do. Bob is accountable for what Bob says and does", and since the lawsuit threats keep on coming.

I came home this afternoon, and logged in. I went through each post, and was kinda shocked at how many times JUST TODAY you and Bystander have talked about the coming lawsuit. I almost said threatened lawsuit, but I am trying not to escalate the tension.

I am not sure if I read it in Danny's messages or if I saw it on Danny's programs (Since I have not been home long, I did not take the time to go back and try to find the info), but I am quite sure I heard Danny (either in writing or video) say that he had been convicted by the Lord because he was trying to fight his own battles.

He said that he confessed and repented, and was no longer going to fight, but would let the Lord fight for him.

Why then does Danny's side keep saying (almost said threatening) these lawsuits?
Do you not care what the bible teaches about Christians taking other Christians before the law?

1Co 6:1-7
(1) Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints?
(2) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
(3) Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
(4) If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church.
(5) I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren?
(6) But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.
(7) Now therefore there is utterly a fault among you, because ye go to law one with another. Why do ye not rather take wrong? why do ye not rather suffer yourselves to be defrauded?

Paul asked some questions here that each of us ought to ask ourselves.

I have heard both sides say they have evidence. Most recently is the documentation for the accusations against Gailon Joy. When proof of the documentation is requested, nothing is presented.

The name of the financial institute (Primus), the amount of the claim, etc., has been given. Why will no one produce the actual document. Those involved have asked for it to be posted. Why won't Danny's side produce it?

Linda has written a letter asking that proof be made public. Why would Danny's side choose to disregard the command of the Lord, and continue to talk about lawsuits?

I am not asking of one side what I have not asked of the other. If you go back through my posts, you will find where I requested that Linda take the route that Joseph took, while in prison in Egypt.

[PeacefulBe]

And one you have admittedly used...

Would you say it worked when you threatened Glenn Dryden???
Thanks Di.

Aletheia,

If you carefully read the informative EGW quotes you posted, you can see that you, Bystander, wwjd, Lee and FHB are not excluded from their application.

Was this jab at Duane a tidbit you gathered on your own or did it come to you through a bit of behind-the-scenes gossip? I just did a search of all of Duane's posts since registering and couldn't find anywhere that Duane admitted threatening to sue Glen Dryden. I did, however, find this exchange where he did threaten legal action against a few others.

http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=172963

[Observer]

Lawsuits, civil litigation, and more:

Repeatedly people have posted in regard to involving the civil authorities in matters that involve the church. Most of the time, they have referenced Matthew 18. I am not certain why, but I believe that there are other Scriptural passages that bear on this issue.

Romans 13 speaks to the duty that the Christian owes to the civil authorities. In the first and second verse it is pointed out that all civil authorities are in their position of authority because God has allowed it. It then goes on to say that rebellion against them is rebellion against God. (vs. 2) Then in verses 4 & 5 it states that the civil authorities exist to bring punishment upon the wrongdoer.

NOTE: I am not suggesting that Christians should obey the civil authorities when that would be disobedience to God.

If my understanding of that passage in Romans is correct, it would follow that a Christian may take criminal and civil matters to the civil authorities. Doing so would not seem to me to violate the Biblical command. God has placed them there for that purpose, among others.

Ist Corinthians 6, also speaks to the issue of civil involvement. It does hold out the ideal of settleing issues within the Chruch. The 4th verse contains a sarcastic comment in regard to appointing people of little wisdon (account) in settleing matters. Then in verse 5, it gets back on target and says: "Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between beleivers?" To me, that 5th verse sets an important context. Matters settled by the Chruch should be settled by wise people with the power to resolve the issues.

The reality is, that in our society, some matters are either so complex that one cannot find people with with wisdom to decide them, within the Chruch, or of such a nature that the Chruch does not have the power to resolve them. When such exists, only the civil authorities can resolve such issues.

NOTE: I Corinthians implies a situation where it was either resolution within the Chruch, or outside in a pagan society. In our society, we have judges who while not SDA are followers of Christ, and cannot be said to be pagan. This passage may not apply in our society.

Denominational policy, as outlined in the CHRUCH MANUAL encourages people to resolve issues within the church. But, it points out that the mission of the chruch is the gospil, and not that of the function of a civil magistrate. In other words, the fundamental mission of the chruch limits its involvement in civil afairs. The CHRUCH MANUAL then goes on to state that there are some issues that the Chruch cannot resolve, and which can only be resolved by the civil authorities.

Most of you know that I was directly involved in the attempt by Harold Lance, and ASI, to mediate certain of the 3-ABN issues. In that process it became quite clear that Mr. Lance and I agreed that certain of the issues could only be resolved in the civil realm, and nowhere else. I continue to hold that position.

While it may be to bad that things have reached the point that they have reached, the reality is that it is only in the civil realm that many of these issues can be resolved. So, I critize no one who choses to enter that realm and litigate. I beleive that in such civil litigation some resolution may be achieved. At least I hope so. So, I look upon civil liltigation as what is needed to bring some of these issues to a close.

The SDA Chruch simply does not have the structure in place to resolve many of the issues, in my thinking. I also beleive that is also true in regard to 3-ABN for issues that SDA chruches commonly resolve within the congregation--such as membership and discipline.

There is a common ethical principle in regard to dual relationships, along with others. Ethically the IL Conference, and the so-called 3-ABN church appears to be compromised in regard to resolving some of the issues due to a violation of the ethical principle relating to duel relationships. Some may say that is only appearance, and that it is not an actual compromise. O.K. But, another ethical principle related to appearance. That tells us that actions should not be taken where there is an apparance of an ethical violation. My friends, whether or not that apparance is actual, ethically the IL Conference and the 3-ABN Chruch should not be acting in certain matters of membership and discipline on any of the named individuals. They should not act on either Danny or Linda, or others.

Folks, the SDA denominaiton simply does not have the structure and proceedures in place to deal fairly and ethicly with the reality of the situation with 3-ABN. Recourse to the civil authorities is the only process that is fair to all.


Let any of that participants in this litigate, or otherwise involve the civil authorities, if they chose to do so.

[Aletheia]

Aletheia,

If you carefully read the informative EGW quotes you posted, you can see that you, Bystander, wwjd, Lee and FHB are not excluded from their application.

Was this jab at Duane a tidbit you gathered on your own or did it come to you through a bit of behind-the-scenes gossip? I just did a search of all of Duane's posts since registering and couldn't find anywhere that Duane admitted threatening to sue Glen Dryden. I did, however, find this exchange where he did threaten legal action against a few others.

http://www.blacksda.com/forums/index.php?s...st&p=172963

Then you didn't look good enough.

Is it possible you just want to believe evil of others PB?

Why didn't you ask me where I got that from, instead of assuming?

Bob posted Duanes pms to him and Duane said it. Go to the save3abn and click on Duane Clem and read.

edited to add:

Actually Here you go:

http://www.save3abn.com/tommy-shelton-vict...-clem-shock.htm

"I am Roger Clem's oldest brother and a former member of the Ezra Church of God congregation, under both Tommy Shelton's and Glenn Dryden's tenures as pastor. Let me begin by saying that I am extremely angry about the amount of information that you are plastering all over the internet, especially about something that is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

Your "informant", Glenn Dryden, is not a credible source of information. He also made some hideous accusations against me a few years back. They were for the same reason as the ones he is leveling against Tommy Shelton: JEALOUSY. Glenn Dryden is a spiteful, vindictive backstabber when someone crosses him. He has done this with numerous people over the past several years, and took the Ezra Church of God down nearly to the point of closure. I had to threaten him with legal action myself to get him to shut his mouth."

This post has been edited by Aletheia: Apr 2 2007, 03:16 PM

[PeacefulBe]

Then you didn't look good enough.

Is it possible you just want to believe evil of others PB?

Why didn't you ask me where I got that from, instead of assuming?

Bob posted Duanes pms to him and Duane said it. Go to the save3abn and click on Duane Clem and read.

edited to add:

Actually Here you go:

http://www.save3abn.com/tommy-shelton-vict...-clem-shock.htm

"I am Roger Clem's oldest brother and a former member of the Ezra Church of God congregation, under both Tommy Shelton's and Glenn Dryden's tenures as pastor. Let me begin by saying that I am extremely angry about the amount of information that you are plastering all over the internet, especially about something that is NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS.

Your "informant", Glenn Dryden, is not a credible source of information. He also made some hideous accusations against me a few years back. They were for the same reason as the ones he is leveling against Tommy Shelton: JEALOUSY. Glenn Dryden is a spiteful, vindictive backstabber when someone crosses him. He has done this with numerous people over the past several years, and took the Ezra Church of God down nearly to the point of closure. I had to threaten him with legal action myself to get him to shut his mouth."

Well, I did ask you in my post, just not very nicely. I saw your post to Duane as mean-spirited and answered in like manner, which is not the right thing to do. Admittedly, since I had taken almost 2 hours to go through all of Duane's posts here, I assumed you got if from somewhere else. Which of course you did, just not where I assumed. And for that I apologize.

No, I spent the hours looking because I didn't want to think evil of others. I wanted to check out your claim. Obviously I should have simply asked you where you found that info before I even spent all the time reading but I didn't.

I just went and read the PMs you linked to on Save3abn.com. I had never seen this particular group of postings and am certainly glad that I finally have. It was very informative to see the process Duane went through to finally step out of the denial his (alleged) victimization had kept him in for those years.

I don't know how I missed them, but thank you so much for the link!

[Aletheia]

Mount St Helens:


Kewl! ! now how do I upload a picture from my computer, and post it?

copy and paste the link to where the pic is and it will be embedded in your post.... the image icon where the link is to be posted can be found on the menu bar when you reply... its the icon that looks like a tree.... click it, then paste the link in there... then post your reply.....

[lookin4truth]

Beautiful picture Aletheia.

[Johann]

Mount St Helens:


Kewl! ! now how do I upload a picture from my computer, and post it?

I actually flew over there during the eruption. There is a tremendous power in such a volcano.

It reminds us that there is some tremendous powers over which we have no control. At times other human beings yield a great power and influence over us. It has amazed me how such powers can influence some people to believe in falsehood. I see all the efforts done to influence people to doubt I am telling the truth. Even if they should succeed here on earth, there is a higher court above, where truth will prevail.

[PeacefulBe]

Beautiful picture Aletheia.

I agree, Aletheia! The site the URL is from has tons of great ones as well. What a find.

[mozart]

I actually flew over there during the eruption. There is a tremendous power in such a volcano.

It reminds us that there is some tremendous powers over which we have no control. At times other human beings yield a great power and influence over us. It has amazed me how such powers can influence some people to believe in falsehood. I see all the efforts done to influence people to doubt I am telling the truth. Even if they should succeed here on earth, there is a higher court above, where truth will prevail.

i used to like you johann but after the february 31 thing..........i'm rethinking that.

don't be discouraged buddy, just stay faithful and true. that's the best one can do.

[PeacefulBe]

Johann, Truth will indeed prevail. Many believe that what you have spoken is truth. Some will remain unconvinced for whatever reason but you and God know what is true!

[Johann]

i used to like you johann but after the february 31 thing..........i'm rethinking that.

don't be discouraged buddy, just stay faithful and true. that's the best one can do.

Thanks, I appreciate that. How about you? It was someone else who mentioned February. I said you can play an April joke on April 31 - which is never!

[mozart]

Thanks, I appreciate that. How about you? It was someone else who mentioned February. I said you can play an April joke on April 31 - which is never!

oh yeah hey my brain is fried today. think i'll go lie down.

[Fran]

I agree, Aletheia! The site the URL is from has tons of great ones as well. What a find.

PB:

Could you give me the URL for those pics? Or tell me where blind people like me can find it. Sometimes I cannot see the forest for the trees.

Thanks

[Clay]

Mount St Helens:


Kewl! ! now how do I upload a picture from my computer, and post it?

you have to upload it as an attachement.... on the reply screen there is a section that says file attachments on the left side of it, and "browse" on the right side..... click browse, find the pic you want to attach then double click.... it will fill in that section and when you click the reply button to submit your post, the pic will be attached.... it will then have to be downloaded by people who want to see it but there will be a thumbnail pic of the main pic in the post......